Ick on Porcupine puffer for 2hrs then dissapeared

CZ08 · 08/18/2012, 10:00 AM

Hi folks,

Just about to start hypo on my newly aqquired marine fish :

2 1/2" Porc puffer
2x 4" Green spotted puffer
3" Majestic Angelfish
2" Coral Beauty
2" red stripe dwarf angel
1 1/2" Clownfish marroon orange/gold
2x Lawnmower Blenny 3 "
1x 2" Dragonet madarin red+green
3" Starry Blenny

I have had all these fish for around a week apart from the 2x Gsps which have been around for couple yrs.

Bought the porc puffer 5 days ago and it only ate twice even with garlic. Last night I noticed some very small white spots on him like this pic :

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/Tetraodon...SpotPuffer.jpg

All over the body and fins.

However it went away after 2 hours and nothing today but I have read this is part of the ick cycle, just want to make sure before I start the hypo treatment on the QT 35g.

Going to transfer the tetratec 1200 250gph external filter from DT to the QT , will this be ok?

For DT it still has another 528gph external filter and a 700gph internal plus the live rocks etc.

I hear its best to use vitamins, garlic and add some soda bicarb during hypo, is this correct? All the other fish are very healthy, eat alot twice aday and very active so only the porc has had signs of ick which lasted 2 hours , I have been keeping close eye on all the fish every hour since they have arrived in our aquarium.

snorvich · 08/18/2012, 11:23 AM

Please read the stickies.

CZ08 · 08/18/2012, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

Please read the stickies.

Thanks for your advice and they seem to be familar, reefsanctary/lee beccas work I think .

I have 2x internal filters in the 35g QT one is a 250gph and other is 550gph all with media from the DT.

Can I shut of the 550gph filter overnight and then put it back on in morning whilst keeping the 250gph on constantly? or would one of these filters be enough?

Cheers!

CZ08 · 08/20/2012, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CZ08

Thanks for your advice and they seem to be familar, reefsanctary/lee beccas work I think .

I have 2x internal filters in the 35g QT one is a 250gph and other is 550gph all with media from the DT.

Can I shut of the 550gph filter overnight and then put it back on in morning whilst keeping the 250gph on constantly? or would one of these filters be enough?

Cheers!

Nvm the above question as the flow was too strong and took out the 2nd filter straight away.

However the red stripe angelfish has passed away lying on the bottom of tank. No marks, bites anything. Just checked the water parameters :

Ph 8.2
Amm 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 10

Salinity at 1.014 done in 24hours from 1.020. All the rest of fish are fine but so was the red stripe night before eating away with no problems.
I wonder if I have done something wrong here or are they just more delicate. I have a coral beauty angel and majestic angel which I paid 180usd for and Iam worried they
will pass away too once i drop the salinity down to 1.009, any advice?

MrTuskfish · 08/20/2012, 07:53 AM

I can't tell if you have ich from the pic; but I assume that's what you've diagnosed.

If your fish have ich, that's what killed one and is stressing them all. One fish showing spots for just two hours could be anything. You can drop SG much faster; going back up should take more time. As long as SG remains above 1.009; ich is multiplying and making things worse. Do you have plans to feed pod-dependent fish, like the Mandarin? Most fish tolerate the low SG of hypo very well. It sounds like ich may have been in your tank for a while. Ich can do a lot of damage without being visible, especially in the gills. If you lose a fish, I wouldn't automatically blame the hypo.

Just my 2 cents: I am not a big fan of hypo, but if you do the procedure perfectly, it should work. You need a perfectly calibrated refractometer and must top-off with no delay. Just a few minutes of a SG above 1.009 can start the ich life cycle again. An ATO is a big help. I assume you will use the QT with all new fish when this is over.

CZ08 · 08/20/2012, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

I can't tell if you have ich from the pic; but I assume that's what you've diagnosed.

If your fish have ich, that's what killed one and is stressing them all. One fish showing spots for just two hours could be anything. You can drop SG much faster; going back up should take more time. As long as SG remains above 1.009; ich is multiplying and making things worse. Do you have plans to feed pod-dependent fish, like the Mandarin? Most fish tolerate the low SG of hypo very well. It sounds like ich may have been in your tank for a while. Ich can do a lot of damage without being visible, especially in the gills. If you lose a fish, I wouldn't automatically blame the hypo.

Just my 2 cents: I am not a big fan of hypo, but if you do the procedure perfectly, it should work. You need a perfectly calibrated refractometer and must top-off with no delay. Just a few minutes of a SG above 1.009 can start the ich life cycle again. An ATO is a big help. I assume you will use the QT with all new fish when this is over.

Thankyou for your response.

I have read your posts before about not being a fan on hypo, I think it was to do with hypo failing several times for yourself and others unless Iam mistaken.

Yeah Im 100% certain it was ick on the porc puffer.I have just done water change of 30% which should bring it down to 1.012.I will do another water change to bring down to 1.010 in 4-6hrs time then finish of tomorrow at 1.009.

I was thinking of buying bulk live pods,live brine shrimp and maybe live bloodworms from a supplier I know, can get a pretty good deal. Just incase the fish dont take to the mysis/flakes etc once down at 1.009.

The odd thing is out of all the fish in tank the porc puffer is most active and personably, he was literally begging me for food at the top of water surface just there, dispite him being the culprit , oh the irony.

I still havent seen any whitespots on him since that night so I have reasonable faith the puffer will be fine, just the angels Iam worried about.

Yup been using the refractometer and doing x2 daily water changes and will keep the hypo at 1.008-1.009 for 4 weeks since last spot has been senn.

What is Ato short for?

Yes I will keep the QT for spare incase of futhur illnesses.

MrTuskfish · 08/20/2012, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CZ08

Thankyou for your response.

I have read your posts before about not being a fan on hypo, I think it was to do with hypo failing several times for yourself and others unless Iam mistaken.
.

I haven't used hypo in years. I'm a big fan of copper ; tank-transfer if there isn't a load of fish. I've formed my opinion based on this forum. My opinion of hypo, and that's all it is, is based on experiences on this forum from lots of good hobbyists who have seen hypo fail. I've also talked to a couple of science-types in the outside world. The problems may well be simply hobbyist error, hypo is very demanding, but I doubt it. I think there may be strains of ich that have simply learned to tolerate normal hypo conditions. I just don't know. I believe Snorvich considers hypo the least favorable option too (I'm certainly not speaking for him). I take his thinking seriously; but my opinion of hypo is just based on my own evaluation of the preceding drivel above.

ATO= Auto top-off

CZ08 · 08/20/2012, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

I haven't used hypo in years. I'm a big fan of copper ; tank-transfer if there isn't a load of fish. I've formed my opinion based on this forum. My opinion of hypo, and that's all it is, is based on experiences on this forum from lots of good hobbyists who have seen hypo fail. I've also talked to a couple of science-types in the outside world. The problems may well be simply hobbyist error, hypo is very demanding, but I doubt it. I think there may be strains of ich that have simply learned to tolerate normal hypo conditions. I just don't know. I believe Snorvich considers hypo the least favorable option too (I'm certainly not speaking for him). I take his thinking seriously; but my opinion of hypo is just based on my own evaluation of the preceding drivel above.

ATO= Auto top-off

Thanks for your quick response. I was not sure on which option to take at first but went with the Hypo instead of copper as I have 3 puffers and have read on some forums it is very risky for them due to absorbing salt through the skin. I did not have much time to research barely couple hours as wanted to quarantine the fish asap.

What is your opinion on this?

I was going to go with a Cupramine 0.4 dosing and may grab some if this hypo fails as backup.

Iam bit concerned now that hypo does not kill all crypto, that would be a hell of a waste of time, money and effort. Do you have any links on peoples experiences with failed hypo treatments?

Iam going to research on failed hypo treatments and if it is common I might just switch it too copper if the puffers can tolerate it.

h2so4hurts · 08/20/2012, 12:14 PM

It's been my experience that puffers do not tolerate copper well at all. Hypo is a lot of work but might be the best option for a puffer. Tank transfer works well too but its pretty demanding with all of the cleaning and wastewater changes.

MrTuskfish · 08/20/2012, 04:31 PM

Like h2so4hurts above, I think tank transfer is the best ich treatment; but its tough when you have several fish. I am very comfortable with copper, but try not to push it on anyone. Do the research and choose your weapon. TT, copper, or hypo.

I have heard/read that puffers are copper-sensitive. But; I've heard the same about lions, butterfly fish, angels (lg. & sm.), anthias, and others. I presently keep all of these fish; including 3 puffer species. Every fish I've owned in many years(a lot) has been treated prophylacticly with copper. These were all new fish that had been acclimated and eating well. I've also treated many parasite infected fish with Cu for a LFS before being forced to move by Katrina. Of course, I lost some fish during the Cu treatment, but I think a flame angel was the only death I could really blame on the copper. It seems that if a fish dies while being exposed to Cu, it must be the Cu. But, these are often fish that have been battling a parasite problem and not in the best of health.

If using copper, be ready to drop the copper level at the first sign of intolerance---often feeding stops. It's fairly common for me to have to re-start Cu dosing.

I have no idea how often hypo fails; but I feel that is usually, but not always, human error. No facts to back this up---just gut feeling and a fair amount of time on this section of our forum. Also, the original post, with ich coming and going, just doesn't fit. Ich comes and goes; but not within a couple of hours. In any case, hypo is fairly easy on fish and I think you're on the right course. I don't have the links to failed hypo you're looking for; I just know I've seen several.

enjetek · 08/20/2012, 05:41 PM

I have only performed cupramine treatments to work wih any new fish. I'm so good that I can do it in a plain old bare ht or a tank filled wih rocks and sand. It starts with getting healthy fish first. As mrtuskfish stated ramp up the treatment slowly. If you need to do some math in the beginning go ahead and do so so that you don't overdose. Also get the seachem kit to test for the correct level. For some reason I can only see the correct level under good lighting and obviously after waiting the amount of time the kit states to. Make sure the fish have enough flow in the tank (especially for tangs!!!). Following those ideas even the so called copper sensitive fish have been easy to treat.

CZ08 · 08/20/2012, 06:27 PM

Thanks everyone for the advice lots of good info, much appreciated.

Just done the 2nd water change for today and it should be around 1.011 shortly.The fish appear active and are eating well so good signs. The 2 gsps are not happy at all pacing up and down the tank but thats to be expected.

I have since read a few threads on the copper treatment and some threads on failed hypo treatments.It seems there has been a few deaths on both so guess its down to treating correctly and bit of luck.

Had a good look on the porc and rest of fish, no spots so far so fingers crossed!

h2so4hurts · 08/20/2012, 07:27 PM

Every time I treated puffers with copper, they stopped eating. It might just be my technique. Who knows. I've stopped doing copper and instead predip all of my fish in 10x strength rid ich+ (formalin/malachite green) for an hour in a small bucket with aeration. I follow that with 2 weeks of Prazi (API General Cure) and then observe for another 2 weeks. The QT tank is a 30 cube with a 25 watt UV sterilizer and I wipe all surfaces down every night for the first two weeks to keep any parasites stirred up. I've had no disease issues in the DT in the 3 years of using this protocol. It works well for me and I find it's a lot less work than hypo, tank transfer, or copper. Your mileage may vary

CZ08 · 09/04/2012, 10:14 AM

Unfortunatley lost the following fish so far:

1 redstripe angelfish, 1 lawnmower blenny and 1 mandarin.

The clownfish has some fin rot bought some m2.The other lm blenny wont eat much.The 3puffs, majestic, coral beauty, starry blenny, dragonet seem very healthy.

What is so odd is that the only fish that has been spotted with crypt is the Porcupine puffer yet by far she is the most personable and active fish.

Everytime I lift the lid for feeds she will bob her head up and down and spit water at me several times every day. At first I did not expect this and managed spit on my neck lol

When I put my finger on the glass she goes nuts trying to bite it several times. All the other fish are not even close to being as aggressive and personable as she yet she was the only one with whitespot, go figure.

08/18/2012, 10:00 AM	#1
CZ08 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sunnies Scotlands xD Posts: 88	Ick on Porcupine puffer for 2hrs then dissapeared Hi folks, Just about to start hypo on my newly aqquired marine fish : 2 1/2" Porc puffer 2x 4" Green spotted puffer 3" Majestic Angelfish 2" Coral Beauty 2" red stripe dwarf angel 1 1/2" Clownfish marroon orange/gold 2x Lawnmower Blenny 3 " 1x 2" Dragonet madarin red+green 3" Starry Blenny I have had all these fish for around a week apart from the 2x Gsps which have been around for couple yrs. Bought the porc puffer 5 days ago and it only ate twice even with garlic. Last night I noticed some very small white spots on him like this pic : http://www.wetwebmedia.com/Tetraodon...SpotPuffer.jpg All over the body and fins. However it went away after 2 hours and nothing today but I have read this is part of the ick cycle, just want to make sure before I start the hypo treatment on the QT 35g. Going to transfer the tetratec 1200 250gph external filter from DT to the QT , will this be ok? For DT it still has another 528gph external filter and a 700gph internal plus the live rocks etc. I hear its best to use vitamins, garlic and add some soda bicarb during hypo, is this correct? All the other fish are very healthy, eat alot twice aday and very active so only the porc has had signs of ick which lasted 2 hours , I have been keeping close eye on all the fish every hour since they have arrived in our aquarium.

08/18/2012, 11:23 AM	#2
snorvich Team RC member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Flatlander Posts: 25,954 Blog Entries: 27	Please read the stickies. __________________ Warmest regards and best wishes, ~Steve~ It is my policy to not respond to those who ask questions not to learn but to be bellicose. Life is a series of decisions serially executed but collectively judged. "Not using a quarantine tank is like playing Russian roulette. Nobody wins the game, some people just get to play longer than others." - Anthony Calfo

08/20/2012, 07:53 AM	#5
MrTuskfish Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Wild Blue Yonder Posts: 7,253	I can't tell if you have ich from the pic; but I assume that's what you've diagnosed. If your fish have ich, that's what killed one and is stressing them all. One fish showing spots for just two hours could be anything. You can drop SG much faster; going back up should take more time. As long as SG remains above 1.009; ich is multiplying and making things worse. Do you have plans to feed pod-dependent fish, like the Mandarin? Most fish tolerate the low SG of hypo very well. It sounds like ich may have been in your tank for a while. Ich can do a lot of damage without being visible, especially in the gills. If you lose a fish, I wouldn't automatically blame the hypo. Just my 2 cents: I am not a big fan of hypo, but if you do the procedure perfectly, it should work. You need a perfectly calibrated refractometer and must top-off with no delay. Just a few minutes of a SG above 1.009 can start the ich life cycle again. An ATO is a big help. I assume you will use the QT with all new fish when this is over. __________________ If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. "Extremism in the pursuit of ich-free tanks is no vice".........with apologies to Barry Goldwater, 1964 Current Tank Info: 180, 2-240 FOWLRs, 240 reef

08/20/2012, 12:14 PM	#9
h2so4hurts Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 405	It's been my experience that puffers do not tolerate copper well at all. Hypo is a lot of work but might be the best option for a puffer. Tank transfer works well too but its pretty demanding with all of the cleaning and wastewater changes. __________________ 240G SPS/LPS reef - tomato clowns& sebae nem, sunburst anthias, 8 Carberryi Anthias, Powder Blue, Royal Gramma, Desjardini Sailfin, Copperband, Spotfin, Moorish Idol.

08/20/2012, 04:31 PM	#10
MrTuskfish Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Wild Blue Yonder Posts: 7,253	Like h2so4hurts above, I think tank transfer is the best ich treatment; but its tough when you have several fish. I am very comfortable with copper, but try not to push it on anyone. Do the research and choose your weapon. TT, copper, or hypo. I have heard/read that puffers are copper-sensitive. But; I've heard the same about lions, butterfly fish, angels (lg. & sm.), anthias, and others. I presently keep all of these fish; including 3 puffer species. Every fish I've owned in many years(a lot) has been treated prophylacticly with copper. These were all new fish that had been acclimated and eating well. I've also treated many parasite infected fish with Cu for a LFS before being forced to move by Katrina. Of course, I lost some fish during the Cu treatment, but I think a flame angel was the only death I could really blame on the copper. It seems that if a fish dies while being exposed to Cu, it must be the Cu. But, these are often fish that have been battling a parasite problem and not in the best of health. If using copper, be ready to drop the copper level at the first sign of intolerance---often feeding stops. It's fairly common for me to have to re-start Cu dosing. I have no idea how often hypo fails; but I feel that is usually, but not always, human error. No facts to back this up---just gut feeling and a fair amount of time on this section of our forum. Also, the original post, with ich coming and going, just doesn't fit. Ich comes and goes; but not within a couple of hours. In any case, hypo is fairly easy on fish and I think you're on the right course. I don't have the links to failed hypo you're looking for; I just know I've seen several. __________________ If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. "Extremism in the pursuit of ich-free tanks is no vice".........with apologies to Barry Goldwater, 1964 Current Tank Info: 180, 2-240 FOWLRs, 240 reef

08/20/2012, 05:41 PM	#11
enjetek Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: granada hills Posts: 431	I have only performed cupramine treatments to work wih any new fish. I'm so good that I can do it in a plain old bare ht or a tank filled wih rocks and sand. It starts with getting healthy fish first. As mrtuskfish stated ramp up the treatment slowly. If you need to do some math in the beginning go ahead and do so so that you don't overdose. Also get the seachem kit to test for the correct level. For some reason I can only see the correct level under good lighting and obviously after waiting the amount of time the kit states to. Make sure the fish have enough flow in the tank (especially for tangs!!!). Following those ideas even the so called copper sensitive fish have been easy to treat. __________________ 240 fowlr 180 shallow shark tank

08/20/2012, 06:27 PM	#12
CZ08 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sunnies Scotlands xD Posts: 88	Thanks everyone for the advice lots of good info, much appreciated. Just done the 2nd water change for today and it should be around 1.011 shortly.The fish appear active and are eating well so good signs. The 2 gsps are not happy at all pacing up and down the tank but thats to be expected. I have since read a few threads on the copper treatment and some threads on failed hypo treatments.It seems there has been a few deaths on both so guess its down to treating correctly and bit of luck. Had a good look on the porc and rest of fish, no spots so far so fingers crossed!

08/20/2012, 07:27 PM	#13
h2so4hurts Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 405	Every time I treated puffers with copper, they stopped eating. It might just be my technique. Who knows. I've stopped doing copper and instead predip all of my fish in 10x strength rid ich+ (formalin/malachite green) for an hour in a small bucket with aeration. I follow that with 2 weeks of Prazi (API General Cure) and then observe for another 2 weeks. The QT tank is a 30 cube with a 25 watt UV sterilizer and I wipe all surfaces down every night for the first two weeks to keep any parasites stirred up. I've had no disease issues in the DT in the 3 years of using this protocol. It works well for me and I find it's a lot less work than hypo, tank transfer, or copper. Your mileage may vary __________________ 240G SPS/LPS reef - tomato clowns& sebae nem, sunburst anthias, 8 Carberryi Anthias, Powder Blue, Royal Gramma, Desjardini Sailfin, Copperband, Spotfin, Moorish Idol.

09/04/2012, 10:14 AM	#14
CZ08 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sunnies Scotlands xD Posts: 88	Unfortunatley lost the following fish so far: 1 redstripe angelfish, 1 lawnmower blenny and 1 mandarin. The clownfish has some fin rot bought some m2.The other lm blenny wont eat much.The 3puffs, majestic, coral beauty, starry blenny, dragonet seem very healthy. What is so odd is that the only fish that has been spotted with crypt is the Porcupine puffer yet by far she is the most personable and active fish. Everytime I lift the lid for feeds she will bob her head up and down and spit water at me several times every day. At first I did not expect this and managed spit on my neck lol When I put my finger on the glass she goes nuts trying to bite it several times. All the other fish are not even close to being as aggressive and personable as she yet she was the only one with whitespot, go figure.