Which Controller?

[eonflux123]

I have a 75 Gallon reef tank and I am looking for a controller. I have 2 Tunze 6055's so I want a controller for that but I saw that Digital Aquatics has a item for that so I began digging into this. I am looking for more control over my tank. Suggestions would be awesome!

[n2585722]

I am not sure what you are asking.

[immokalee98]

I use the Neptune Systems aquacontroller for my setup and I'm pretty happy with it.

[GusDiaz]

I have used the RKE for over 3 years now. It has worked well up to the stage that I am at. The multiple problems bugging the equipment and no support still for the new SL2 have made me know consider to change to Apex. I am very sure that this will be the best change now that I am more advanced.

The RKE is a good choice if you are a beginner. As you get better and gain experience like me (over 15 years with reef aquariums) then you start giving more value to other things. If your commitment to this hobby is true, I will have a closer look to the Apex system.

[andywe]

Originally Posted by eonflux123

I have a 75 Gallon reef tank and I am looking for a controller. I have 2 Tunze 6055's so I want a controller for that but I saw that Digital Aquatics has a item for that so I began digging into this. I am looking for more control over my tank. Suggestions would be awesome!

You could do with a RKL package, level 2 or 3 is my recommendation. Much better price point than the competition. Since the 6055's aren't controllable, no nee dto worry about this specific module or that one (each manufacturer has their area in that realm).

If you want remote capabilities, add a net module. If you need alot of sockets, then go RKE as it supports alot more modules..but the RKL Level 3 will give you PH, switch ports, Temp, and 8 sockets. 4 of which are mechanically switched which is a big advantage in my book.

[James77]

Originally Posted by andywe

You could do with a RKL package, level 2 or 3 is my recommendation. Much better price point than the competition. Since the 6055's aren't controllable, no nee dto worry about this specific module or that one (each manufacturer has their area in that realm).
.

Yes, the 6055s are controllable. The better price point is definitely up for debate, but a general forum would be more appropriate for that.

OP....I suggest you post this same question in the "lighting and filtration" forum as well as Neptunes for more responses.

[eonflux123]

well I went with the digital Aquatics RKE basic w/ controller and I couldn't be happier (well I could if I could afford a profilux ) I am happy with my purchase and thanks for the opinions everyone

[n2585722]

Let us know if you need help with the programming. A good place to check is DA's own forum at http://www.forum.digitalaquatics.com/.

[GusDiaz]

Good luck with your RKE. It is a good controller only for a beginner. Again; I think they have a good product but DA is falling behind fast and not improving with their current problems (for a long time). The reason I also do not post this at the DA site is that I know they will block it (as their moderators have done with others). This is a more neutral place to let other people know about the 2 sides of the coin in a civilized form.

I will be getting my new Apex today, so this weekend is the big interchange of controllers.

[DaveMorris]

Originally Posted by GusDiaz

The reason I also do not post this at the DA site is that I know they will block it (as their moderators have done with others). This is a more neutral place to let other people know about the 2 sides of the coin in a civilized form.

I will be getting my new Apex today, so this weekend is the big interchange of controllers.

In all actuality, they do not block user's posts on their support forum unless the post is of no use for support. There are plenty of people, myself included, that have been extremely happy with their choice of the RKE.

[GusDiaz]

Originally Posted by DaveMorris

In all actuality, they do not block user's posts on their support forum unless the post is of no use for support. There are plenty of people, myself included, that have been extremely happy with their choice of the RKE.

Actually you are correct Dave..... Since a post like mine is not useful for support and of no benefit for the reputation of DA, therefore it will be removed from the DA forum. Here at Reef Central at least I have a way to fairly be heard. I have been also happy with the RKE, but it is limmited what it can do with the problems that it has due to the inactions of DA and hardware problems of the equipment.

Again, I am not being so negative about DA; only fair. They are losing themselves in other ventures and forgetting the people that made them who they are. Not forgetting being behind for 2 years with the SL2 with the conductivity probe; having for more than 3 years problems with the SL1 and SL2 pH readings if you use the two modules at the same time, problems with the Net module, problems with no internet interaction even when it was promised since the net module conception, etc.

I think that 5 years of waiting for an advanced controller that was promised is plenty. The RKE is a fine controller for the beginner, not for the advanced in my opinion. Simply explained; the RKE is a deluxe version of the Life Guard.

It is sad to see that I company like DA is losing ground when at the beginning they looked so promising.

Please understand my point and in no way I am trying to insult you or DA. I am only trying to explain the problems that I have encountered with my equipment and limitations of it in an objective way.

[Halfmoon61]

Originally Posted by GusDiaz

Actually you are correct Dave..... Since a post like mine is not useful for support and of no benefit for the reputation of DA, therefore it will be removed from the DA forum. Here at Reef Central at least I have a way to fairly be heard. I have been also happy with the RKE, but it is limmited what it can do with the problems that it has due to the inactions of DA and hardware problems of the equipment.

Again, I am not being so negative about DA; only fair. They are losing themselves in other ventures and forgetting the people that made them who they are. Not forgetting being behind for 2 years with the SL2 with the conductivity probe; having for more than 3 years problems with the SL1 and SL2 pH readings if you use the two modules at the same time, problems with the Net module, problems with no internet interaction even when it was promised since the net module conception, etc.

I think that 5 years of waiting for an advanced controller that was promised is plenty. The RKE is a fine controller for the beginner, not for the advanced in my opinion. Simply explained; the RKE is a deluxe version of the Life Guard.

It is sad to see that I company like DA is losing ground when at the beginning they looked so promising.

Please understand my point and in no way I am trying to insult you or DA. I am only trying to explain the problems that I have encountered with my equipment and limitations of it in an objective way.

Well said Gus.

[DaveMorris]

Originally Posted by GusDiaz

The RKE is a fine controller for the beginner, not for the advanced in my opinion. Simply explained; the RKE is a deluxe version of the Life Guard.

I still do not understand this statement about the RKE being only for the beginner. I have an RKE system that does absolutely everything that I want or need it to do on a very complex 350g system. I even have a salinity probe from the early ones that still works just fine. (Maybe I got lucky with that one) There isn't anything that another controller out there can do that the RKE can not that I am interested in having. I run a closed loop because I hate powerheads in my tank, including Vortechs. Does that make me a beginner reefer?

Originally Posted by GusDiaz

Please understand my point and in no way I am trying to insult you or DA. I am only trying to explain the problems that I have encountered with my equipment and limitations of it in an objective way.

The problem is that it is insulting. I know people that have amazingly beautiful tanks with awesome coral growth, beautiful fish, and absolutely no controller at all. Does that make them a beginner?

I am not here to defend DA or debate their problems with anybody. I have simply had quite an opposite experience with my RKE system for the last 4 years, as it was a part of the original 200 that were shipped. I have had no problems with my NET module, no problems with ph readings, especially using an SL2 and SL1 at the same time, and like I said before, I even have a salinity probe that seems to be working just fine. I guess I am just a lucky beginner.

[DaveMorris]

Double post....

[abeazzy2]

I've had major issues with DA as well. I would not recommend!

[eonflux123]

well so far so good, the only problem I am having is in the Myreef, it keeps renaming my lights and such so I lose track if I need to manually turn stuff off. The module for my Tunze powerheads is amazing and couldn't ask for more!!!

[DaveMorris]

I think the bottom line is that with any product there will always be a certain percentage of people that are unhappy with some part of it. That could be the product itself or the customer service or something else. I have no problem with people posting about their experiences with the product or the company. The problem is that we have no idea of what that percentage is. I have seen about 10 or 12 people recently post about an issue of some sort that has driven them to want to replace their RKE or RKL with a different controller. I have seen just as many complain about the Apex. None of these controllers are going to be the best for all of us finicky reefers.

I often give talks on controllers and automating tank systems to hobbyists and I purchased an Apex to get more familiar with it. I did not like it at all, for a number of reasons. We all have our things that are important to us. As an example, it doesn't bother me at all that the RKE does not have Vortech control because I don't use powerheads. Some other people see the Apex having the advantage because it does control Vortechs. As they say....to each his own.

[James77]

Originally Posted by DaveMorris

I have seen about 10 or 12 people recently post about an issue of some sort that has driven them to want to replace their RKE or RKL with a different controller. I have seen just as many complain about the Apex. None of these controllers are going to be the best for all of us finicky reefers.

You have seen just as many complain about the Apex....but have the complaints been significant enough to drive them to the competition? I have seen no recent posts that I can recall over the last few months of anyone switching from Apex to RKE based on any issue. Any chance of posting a few threads or posts where this has happened? I am completely serious here, because I just have not seen this.

You are 100% right that no controller is going to satisfy all reefers equally. No person ever really claims that though, it is pretty well accepted that all products have their strengths and weakness.

But the complaints that drive people from the Digital Aquatics products are not at all similar to reasons people may be switching from Neptune to DA. The largest complaint I see of Neptune is difficult programming. However with DA, the complaints are more based with customer service problems and delays in correcting bugs and well known module problems. The easiest example is the SL2 module. While it is great that several prominent members of the DA forum seem to have zero problems, it is apparently a substantial enough problem that DA has decided to completely re-do the SL2. That is commendable on their part, as they were planning on replacing free of charge and receipt IIRC. But.....the SL2v2 was announced in February this year, with expected release within 8 weeks. Yet here we are, 8 months later with no answers as to what is going on.

There is a serious problem with DA and its ability to release updates, fixes, and provide adequate customer support. The posts and complaints of this are so easy to find and provide, and they far exceed 10 or 12. There are people demanding refunds through the BBB for the SL2 problems. I would love to see more than 5 examples of people switching from Neptune to DA for issues relating to product development, customer service, or bugs.


Here is the SL2 forum off their site:
http://www.forum.digitalaquatics.com/viewforum.php?f=18

They have not posted updates or responded to people since May this year, 5 months ago. This is on a product they officially announced a fix to with the SL2v2 back in February 2012, with a lead time of 8 weeks waiting for parts. I see you post frequently that they are not going to update unless they have new info, and that they are justified in not posting or following release dates since they are crucified when they miss them. While that can be seen as a valid point.....would you really disagree that it is not disgusting, or at the very least troubling, their apparent inability to rectify the problem? I really do respect them wanting to have a 100% bug free product....but how long can this SL2 issue go on? It is painful!

I'll save you the typing with my following comments. Yes, I have switched and moved on from DA. Hownever, i do keep checking on them for various reasons....I like tech stuff, I like aquarium controllers, and I kinda do like DA. I am sickened by their handling of everything for the last few years. I will give them the fact that they pretty much started this whole modular controller thing. But running on just that idea is maeningless when it is going nowhere. They seem to be treading water for years. I find it irritating and baffling to watch other hobbyists stuck with a company that claims it cares about its customers, yet completely unable to correct issues in a timely manner.

Originally Posted by DaveMorris

I purchased an Apex to get more familiar with it. I did not like it at all, for a number of reasons.

Could you elaborate at least some on what turned you off on the Apex?

[DaveMorris]

A couple of things....

I never said, or meant to imply, that people were switching from the Apex to the RKE. I do know of a few that did, one of which sold the RKE a month later and bought a Profilux EX. I try not to address complaints people have about customer service or unhappiness about how long it seems to take to release new updates or modules. It isn't my place to do so. How could I know what experience someone does or does not have. I have had some very long and very candid conversations with company people in the past as well as recently with their new CEO. I have been told that changes are coming and I believe them. I surely do not expect anyone else to believe it until they see it and hopefully that will be soon.

As for my experience with the Apex? Well I had it for about a month "playing" with it and trying to figure out how to program channels and do similar things with it like I have on my RKE system. I never was able to figure out the programming to it. I am sure that given more time and a more sincere or urgent need to get it going I would have figured it out. Just like learning anything new. I also did not like the small wire on the head unit or the fact that the connectors on the main unit are too close together. These are not items that would make me not purchase the unit, but more of a cosmetic thing. I haven't heard of many people having problems with the small wire so I imagine that it is fine. Probably the biggest thing I prefer with the RKE over the Apex is the RKE is still more modular.

This is still all subjective to personal preference. I have no idea why it is taking so long for DA to get things done. I wish it was different but for me personally it hasn't been a problem. My system works and that's all I need right now. It has been reliable and since I travel extensively in and out of the country for work, I have no complaints or worries about leaving my system for days or weeks at a time.

I can also appreciate what you say about being a tech guy. I read the Neptune and GHL forums all the time, as well as threads on Arduino based controllers just because I don't want to miss anything. While I am a supporter of the DA systems, I am an even bigger supporter of controllers in general. I think they keep tanks more consistent and safer for our animals. Not to mention that they allow us to enjoy watching our tanks more often.

[GusDiaz]

Just out of curiosity I went to the DA support forum and saw Dave's info. Dave is part of Team DA (so your opinion is always going to be more inclined to DA favor). Also, in your profile you state that you do not monitor salinity.

UsernameaveMorris Location:San Diego, CAAge:46Groups:Global moderatorsRegistered usersTeam DA How many years have you been in the hobby?:12Primary Tank Size:300How many tanks do you currently run?:2 Do you monitor pH?:Yes Do you monitor temperature?:Yes Do you monitor ORP?:Yes Do you monitor Salinity?:No Do you use switched inputs with your system?:Yes Do you have an RK1?:Yes Do you have an RK2?:No Do you have an RKE?:Yes Other Controller:Yes

I agree that all controllers have advantages and disadvantages. But I do not agree with some things said here in the past.

1. RKE more modular??? the Apex and the RKE are based on modules. I prefer the advantage of the Apex with the aqua bus cables. you can connect them in any form or sequence that you want. The RKE needs to be connected in line or sequence unless you have the module that allows you to break that daisy chain. In my opinion that does not make the RKE more modular.

2. The SL2 v2 was promised about 8 months ago. Why? Because of 2 major problems.

a. Salinity probes have short life. This is a problem that has been present since a few months after the introduction of the SL2 (over 2-3 years ago). My probe lasted about 1 1/2 years. more than the usual RKE SL2 user that was a few months. So in reality the salinity probe problem has about over 2 years present. This problem has been experienced by the great majority of the salinity probe users. There is always going to be 1 or 2 probes that will work for an unknown reason. But when an overwhelming majority of the users complaint about the salinity probe, it tells you that there is a problem.

b. The pH problem interaction between the SL1 and SL2 has been reported since the beginning of the SL2 introduction. These 2 problems most probably have forced DA into remaking the SL2 into the second generation. So the problem of the SL2 has been started to be addressed 8 months ago, but in reality it has plague the system for far more time.

3. Apex and other controllers have slinity probes that apparently are not having the same issues as DA. It could be manufacturer or another reason, but still they appear to be more stable than the one from DA.

4. I think that the RKE is for the beginner user of controllers, not the beginner aquarist. It is easy to program, no question about that, but it is plagued with the hardware problems that limit its use.

5. No internet remote connection that was promised to be looked at and may be implemented by DA since the conception and release of the net module. Well, 3-4 years after we still do not have the remote internet connection.

I have been using the DA RKE since it came out. Now about 4-5 years. I like the product. It is nice. Easy to program. But.... it has its big problems with the system and no recent updates. Also some of the modules (SL2) have utilities that do not work (salinity).

I installed my Apex last Sunday. It is easier to set up. Ph calibration is done in 3-4 minutes instead of 10-15 for DA RKE. No need to calibrate the ORP like the RKE. Salinity probe that works. It is true that it is more difficult to program on the advance mode of the outlets, but here in Reef Central I found most of the commands that I need to make it work in a relatively short periods of time.

I do not consider myself a reef aquarium expert, but I have lots of experience (over 15 years). I know that many things also depend on your preferences, but I have used the RKE for more than 4year and only 3 days the Apex. I can tell you that in 3 days I have made my Apex do all that my RKE have been doing, I have salinity again, and just by looking at the instructions and the un-official guide I know that I can do more things that with my old RKE.

[DaveMorris]

Originally Posted by GusDiaz

Just out of curiosity I went to the DA support forum and saw Dave's info. Dave is part of Team DA (so your opinion is always going to be more inclined to DA favor). Also, in your profile you state that you do not monitor salinity.

UsernameaveMorris Location:San Diego, CAAge:46Groups:Global moderatorsRegistered usersTeam DA How many years have you been in the hobby?:12Primary Tank Size:300How many tanks do you currently run?:2 Do you monitor pH?:Yes Do you monitor temperature?:Yes Do you monitor ORP?:Yes Do you monitor Salinity?:No Do you use switched inputs with your system?:Yes Do you have an RK1?:Yes Do you have an RK2?:No Do you have an RKE?:Yes Other Controller:Yes

Since you find it so necessary to waste time trying to discredit me, let me address two very obvious oversights that you make:

1. Yes I am a member of TeamDA. It has been clearly stated as such in my signature here on RC for a very long time. I have never been shy about telling people that.

2. I became a member of TeamDA because of my experience with the RKE and a general interest in helping people who are using a DA controller.

3. I have never and will never go into another manufacturer's forum and bad mouth their product. The only time I have ever said anything negative about another company's controller is in direct response to a question and based solely on my personal experience.

4. My profile on the DA website hasn't been updated in probably three or four years. I would imagine it is still the same as when I joined that forum. It would have been somewhat difficult for me to be monitoring salinity when the SL2 wasn't even made yet. Forgive me for not updating my profile. I didn't know anybody cared.

Lastly, I have never denied the fact that people have had problems. Never denied the fact that it has been so long since updates have happened. I really don't care which controller you choose to use. I am glad that you found one that works for you. I wish everyone saw the value of having a controller on their tank.

DA is exhibiting at Reef-A-Palooza this weekend. Their booth is very close to Neptune's booth. Maybe what the company needs is a wake up call and that may come at this upcoming show. We'll see. Since I don't work for them, I am not privy to any information that isn't available to the reefing community. If they continue to lose users that is for them to fix not me. I just try to help people who are currently using their product or are considering buying their product. Which brings us back to the original purpose of this thread which we have managed to twist into a different direction.

[GusDiaz]

Dave.... Once again..... You are taking this personal..... Do not lose focus.....

We are trying to give opinions on controllers... We all are never going to necessarily agree. I have been fortunate to have both, as well as you... I am trying just to give my perspective and clear the facts and inconsistencies.... You are taking it to a very personal level as if I was attacking you. In no way I am doing that. I am only also expressing my point. I have talked about the good and the bad of the RKE, but you are only focusing on the bad.

This situation is just funny.....

[James77]

Originally Posted by DaveMorris

I try not to address complaints people have about customer service or unhappiness about how long it seems to take to release new updates or modules. It isn't my place to do so. How could I know what experience someone does or does not have. I have had some very long and very candid conversations with company people in the past as well as recently with their new CEO. I have been told that changes are coming and I believe them. I surely do not expect anyone else to believe it until they see it and hopefully that will be soon.

Nor do I expect you to address them. I know your TeamDA participation is limited to helping others with problems ranging from common to advanced. The fact does remain though that you do know DA employees....that does not mean best buddies, but it is worth noting if youre giving opinions on the 2.

Hopefully DA will wake up and change their track, I would love to see it. I love competent competition and new things. You are right that I do not believe it until I see it with their track record, but my memeory is pretty short.....if I saw substantial changes or even just aggressive attempts at them, I would definitley reconsider them.

Originally Posted by DaveMorris

As for my experience with the Apex? Well I had it for about a month "playing" with it and trying to figure out how to program channels and do similar things with it like I have on my RKE system. I never was able to figure out the programming to it. I am sure that given more time and a more sincere or urgent need to get it going I would have figured it out. Just like learning anything new. I also did not like the small wire on the head unit or the fact that the connectors on the main unit are too close together. These are not items that would make me not purchase the unit, but more of a cosmetic thing. I haven't heard of many people having problems with the small wire so I imagine that it is fine. Probably the biggest thing I prefer with the RKE over the Apex is the RKE is still more modular.

Yeah, that small wire to the head unit is silly, slightly thicker than dental floss it seems . I do not like the Apex head unit compared to DA RKEs head unit....I liked the contrast and color changes on the RKE much more. I personally prefer the buss cables for DA, easier to find and even DIY. My problems came down to what seems like a lack of ambition on their part. I am sure it is not their intent to appear that way, and hopefully they change course.

Originally Posted by DaveMorris

This is still all subjective to personal preference. I have no idea why it is taking so long for DA to get things done. I wish it was different but for me personally it hasn't been a problem. My system works and that's all I need right now. It has been reliable and since I travel extensively in and out of the country for work, I have no complaints or worries about leaving my system for days or weeks at a time.

But for a lot of people it is a major problem, and it is a valid point of view those people have.

Originally Posted by DaveMorris

I can also appreciate what you say about being a tech guy. I read the Neptune and GHL forums all the time, as well as threads on Arduino based controllers just because I don't want to miss anything. While I am a supporter of the DA systems, I am an even bigger supporter of controllers in general. I think they keep tanks more consistent and safer for our animals. Not to mention that they allow us to enjoy watching our tanks more often.

Absolutely , though I try to limit checking out threads latley....I have come way to close to pulling the trigger on things I have zero need for . I also like controllers, and that includes DA....they had a damn strong start with this latest wave of modular controller. I was right there behind them in the beginning....but others took the idea and ran with it, maybe DA will do that again.

I started off with an AC jr I think 7 0r 8 years ago....I had to justify it heavily at that time....now a controller is as improtant as the tank itself.

[DaveMorris]

Originally Posted by GusDiaz

Dave.... Once again..... You are taking this personal..... Do not lose focus.....

We are trying to give opinions on controllers... We all are never going to necessarily agree. I have been fortunate to have both, as well as you... I am trying just to give my perspective and clear the facts and inconsistencies.... You are taking it to a very personal level as if I was attacking you. In no way I am doing that. I am only also expressing my point. I have talked about the good and the bad of the RKE, but you are only focusing on the bad.

This situation is just funny.....

Gus, you are right...this is very funny. You tell me that I am taking it personally yet you have no idea why?? How about saying that the RKE is for beginners? How about looking up my personal profile on DA's site to apparently try to bring out something that I have done many times in the past?? You have steered it in that direction, not me. I address the "bad" as you put it because you bring these items up that are bad for you, but my experience may have been completely different. How does that make me in the wrong?

I am a big boy. I can handle criticism and I certainly have no problem with people voicing their opinions and experiences. Don't think I'm not going to voice mine. People can take what I say with however many grains of salt they want to.

I think this horse is officially dead now.

[DaveMorris]

Originally Posted by James77

But for a lot of people it is a major problem, and it is a valid point of view those people have.

I have no problem with that. I believe that DA will get matters addressed and hopefully they will do it soon. Ultimately the market, which I believe we are a finicky bunch, will force the course of action one way or the other.

Originally Posted by James77

I started off with an AC jr I think 7 0r 8 years ago....I had to justify it heavily at that time....now a controller is as improtant as the tank itself.

Controller number one for me was a Octopus 3000 from Aquadyne. They are located here in San Diego so the couple of minor issues I had with that system was an easy fix. I just walked in and talked to them. Lots of X10 modules and bulky pieces to that system. I eventually replaced it with the original Reefkeeper 1. Things have certainly come a long way.