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Old 07/09/2015, 04:30 PM   #1226
Dfee
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Not sure why the pic kept ending up upside down


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Old 07/09/2015, 05:32 PM   #1227
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My last tank ended in my battle with Dino's. I Didn't find this thread then so just started all over with a new tank last October. Started with 6 small fish in a 220 tank and no coral. Everything was just great until about 7 months in.

During month 7 I noticed an algae outbreak all over my sand, so I started doing a lot of water changes and running GFO. I Was going for the totally clean tank thing which I now know can be a trigger. Then Dino's out of nowhere. I Found this thread and immediately stopped water changes and turned off skimmer. I Noticed an immediate improvement and after a few weeks Dino's were barely noticeable. I tried taking a sample under a toy microscope but it wasn't powerful enough to determine the type if Dino's.

Now, all the sudden, 2 months later the Dino's are back with a vengeance. Killed two of my fish. I haven't turned water on nor done water changes. I'm wondering if I just don't have enough bio load and other live to counterbalance the Dino's?

Help!!


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Old 07/09/2015, 06:25 PM   #1228
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What happened after the two months when the dinos came back? Did you do any water changes or anything?


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Old 07/09/2015, 06:33 PM   #1229
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Where are you getting your fresh phyto? I think I might try your approach, I'm starting to get desperate. ....
I am culturing my own phyto, I got the culture kit from Florida Aqua Farms, I culture it in 2L pop bottles.


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Old 07/09/2015, 08:59 PM   #1230
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Originally Posted by cal_stir View Post
I am culturing my own phyto, I got the culture kit from Florida Aqua Farms, I culture it in 2L pop bottles.
Thanks for the reply. I'll have to look into it. Have you had any noticeable P04 increases? I've read that phyto are loaded with phosphates.


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Old 07/10/2015, 01:44 PM   #1231
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haven't tested my po4 since I started dosing it, will check it later and see.
i have been adding lots of micro fauna and starting to see a return of feather dusters and brittle stars.
i also keep my skimmer running when i dose as i have an abundance of phyto.


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Old 07/10/2015, 02:26 PM   #1232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cal_stir View Post
I am culturing my own phyto, I got the culture kit from Florida Aqua Farms, I culture it in 2L pop bottles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cal_stir View Post
haven't tested my po4 since I started dosing it, will check it later and see.
i have been adding lots of micro fauna and starting to see a return of feather dusters and brittle stars.
i also keep my skimmer running when i dose as i have an abundance of phyto.
Can you link the specific culture kit you're using?


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Old 07/10/2015, 06:32 PM   #1233
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Can you link the specific culture kit you're using?
I got amphipod copepod mix from reefs2go
http://www.reefs2go.com/product/INV_...et-1-FREE.html

Live copepods from algaebarn
http://www.algaebarn.com/shop/pf

Pod+ from reefcleaners
http://www.reefcleaners.org/aquarium-store/pods

And I have an order of pods, worms, stars coming from IPSF
http://www.reefcleaners.org/aquarium-store/pods

Phyto culture and micro macro grow from Florida Aqua Farms
http://florida-aqua-farms.com/shop/microalgae-disks/


My micro fauna was decimated from algaex, I originally started my tank with real live rock and had a very diverse system so that is what I am trying to get back to, diversity is the key.
My system turned the corner when I let the system get dirty and started rebuilding my micro fauna, I grow a nice crop of nice green micro algae on the glass in 3 days and am maintaining po4 at 0.025 and no3 at 2ppm.


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Old 07/10/2015, 06:41 PM   #1234
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I had been battling dinos for a long time not sure what type. Mine have almost completely disapeared. I started overfeeding my tank the cheato and culurpa in refugium started growing and I believe out competing dinos. I also quit running gfo and carbon. Now my skimmer and refuge take care of it


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Old 07/10/2015, 08:32 PM   #1235
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I had been battling dinos for a long time not sure what type. Mine have almost completely disapeared. I started overfeeding my tank the cheato and culurpa in refugium started growing and I believe out competing dinos. I also quit running gfo and carbon. Now my skimmer and refuge take care of it
I think that if we get our systems too clean the micro fauna suffers, letting it dirty up brings it back but you have to be careful as to not cause a hair algae problem.


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Old 07/10/2015, 08:35 PM   #1236
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It's been about 4 months. I feed the tank until I got hair and cyno. Then backed off a little bit. I have found a good balance


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Old 07/11/2015, 02:34 AM   #1237
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Since we are leaning towards rich and diverse plankton as a way towards getting our tanks back on track let's discuss it further.

Algae killing products seem to open the door for dinos. Are they taking all the food away from the good plankton or simply killing the plankton in the process?

For best success with achieving a high population of "pods" is, an ample food source, (detritus, algae decay, plankton, micro-algae, diatoms, etc....), places to hide from predators and good water quality should be your goals.
http://www.reefcleaners.org/aquarium-store/pods

Ample food source.
Looking at the amount of the dark brown/green stuff in my skimmer that collects there every day and the never ending gunk that gets blasted from my rocks and vacuumed from my sand I'd think there is plenty of food for pods, but is it the right kind?

Detritus as fish poo is at the same amount every day as go into the tank as fish food and it exits the fish with much of the nutrients intact.

Free floating algae decay is picked up by the skimmer very fast, but plenty of it will get picked up by the rocks and sand as well.
I do have living micro algae on my rocks visible with magnification.

Plankton is our missing ingredient as a food source for other plankton.

We have some diatoms, but it seems like the dinos always have the upper hand and a it seems like a diatom bloom can never push the dinos out as they can in the ocean.

Places to hide we have as rocks, sandbeds, balls of algae, refugiums etc.

Good water quality is another missing ingredient as the water is dominated with toxic dinos that are certain to compete for food, spots to live in and interfere with reproduction, food sources etc.

We should all shift our forces from the futile dino killings to ways to aid plankton to settle in and see where that leads us. It seems to be working to some extent for some of us already.

---

My tank has some pods, but they are sparse and there are no amphipods, stars, bristleworms, small snails or featherdusters to name a few. I restarted my tank with dry rock, so it started out the wrong way for plankton.
The 20Kg of live rock I added to my sump a year ago did the trick for a short time, but not in the long run.
There are no plankton products available here and they are next to impossible to import because of customs.


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Old 07/11/2015, 02:36 AM   #1238
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Does anyone know the link between nitrate and plankton/pods.
The question: "Does anyone have a dino bloom and high nitrate" is a good one.


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Old 07/11/2015, 05:24 AM   #1239
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I would have to say the algae killer killed all my plankton, I saw it happening only a few days after I started using it and I changed nothing else, I vacuumed out their carcasses for weeks. I used to find dozens of brittle stars and amphipods in my sock when I changed it and I would return them to the tank but have not found one since the algaex even with the addition of many hundreds of pods. I used to have fan worms, bristle worms, spaghetti worms, peanut worms and I'm sure some other worms I never knew I had, all killed by the algaex.
My no3 was undetectable and my po4 very low but never did it test 0 and I had tons of plankton and did not dose phyto or anything to feed the plankton nor did I add plankton, but I think if tanks are stripped too clean then the plankton will suffer and set the stage for a bloom but I'm not sure that is the trigger as I read about a lot of tanks with readings of 0 no3 and 0 po4 and no dino bloom, in my case I believe the algaex was the trigger.
My dinos appeared within a few weeks of the algaex treatment and it is supposed to kill dinos.


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Old 07/11/2015, 07:54 AM   #1240
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My dino bloom started after a tank crash. That was from the crash of the red flatworms crashing and dying lost all starfish and pods plus fish and 90% of corals very rapidly. That is also when my macro algea died. I did lots of water changes started restocking tank. But was never able to grow good macro algea. Then that's when the dinos took over could not keep a snail sand bed always had a mat of dinos and rock everything covered. Tried water changes ,gfo, carbon, new bigger protien skimmer etc. Nothing was working. Started following this thread and really wondered if tank was done. That's when I started feeding heavy back off the protien skimmer. Took gfo and carbon off. Less water changes. And now my tank looks better than it did before all my problems . I still have some dinos but there is less all the time. I am timing my cheato and calurpa in the refugium all the time. I now have lots of pods and snails and the small starfish are back. The diversity is back and finding a balance is what worked for me.


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Old 07/11/2015, 08:31 AM   #1241
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I have beaten dinos by going ultra clean after my tank crash and dino invasion. I know that doesn'agree with the "dirty" method. The bottom line is they BOTH work for exactly the same reason. The good plankton and micro fauna do better with more nutrients because they require more. This is a biological constant. The more complex the organism is the more fuel it requires. By starving the dinos (clean method), you drive them back in numbers to the time when they were competing with copious other organisms. They were/are always in your reef but held in check. By flooding the tank with nutrients (dirty method), AND adding live phyto, pods, etc. in quanity you the balance in competition for nutrients. I experienced this as the result of a marine algae killer which wiped out my tank.


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Old 07/11/2015, 09:12 AM   #1242
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I did a simple test to estimate the amount of detritus my tank produces and how much of it is missed by the skimmer.

Last weekend I vacuumed all my accessible sandbed thoroughly and cleaned 20Kg of live rock in the sump of all detritus.
Today I vaccumed (40cc) 1.4Oz. of detritus from that same sandbed and cleaned (50cc) 1.7Oz from the 20kg live rock.

This volume is like two matchboxes full of detritus plus the skimmer got emptied twice.
I'd estimate that the skimmer removed similar or slightly less detritus than what the other two trapped.

I have (150kg) 300 pounds of live rock and a (3cm) 1" shallow sandbed in my 400g system.


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Old 07/11/2015, 12:55 PM   #1243
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The "clean" method doesn't exclude enriching the plankton biofauna.

I feed enough and provide opportunities for the plankton to thrive with skimmer downtime and plenty of chaeto and a cryptic zone.

But I also run my skimmer most of the day, do water changes and use a slow UV loop.

Check out my YouTube channel https://youtu.be/q4XY7U4ddwo


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Old 07/11/2015, 02:56 PM   #1244
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Quote:
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Thanks for the reply. I'll have to look into it. Have you had any noticeable P04 increases? I've read that phyto are loaded with phosphates.
Tested my po4 today and it's 0.025, been dosing fresh home cultured phyto for about 3 weeks now and no increase in po4.


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Old 07/11/2015, 11:29 PM   #1245
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Has anyone done a blackout and had their tank get worse? I only went about 30~ hours because my frogspawn receded to show white skeleton. One of my sexy shrimp is dead (pulled its remains out) and the other is missing presumed dead. My toadstool is covered with dinos. I don't see any pods anywhere. They were previously ON the dinos, all over the glass; several types and what looked like predatory isopods chasing them.

Getting worse weekly
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Old 07/12/2015, 01:14 AM   #1246
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Sounds like you may have more trouble than dinos ?


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Old 07/12/2015, 03:12 AM   #1247
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FWIW, GFO removes silicate in the same way that PhosGuard does. People have been successful with both products.
This fact could possibly be a part of the problem.
Diatoms are a major nutrient competitor and they need silicate.

I also found out carbon does not bind well to iron. (and alcohol)
A few posts back I mention the opposite.

Palytoxins produced by Ostreopsis are very long carbon chains.
Based on the above I wonder if it's the carbon or the GFO that take up the toxins.

Yet another bit of knowledge about this toxin is that it causes bone resorption, by breaking down bone and releasing the elements. Bones are mostly calcium and so are our corals.


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Old 07/12/2015, 06:18 AM   #1248
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Blackouts do not deter dinos. You must keep in mind that dinos bevome water column swimmers at night. Night time activities appeal to them so it seems likely dark isn't much of a threat. How many times have I looked at my "clean" sandbed in the early morning thinking I was winning the battle? (Show of hands please) UV sterilizers properly applied, meaning as slow as possible water flow through your unit ifyou have one. Stay AWAY from marine algae killers! They do not discriminate between killing unwanted algae (HA in my case), and the micro critters which are keeping dinos in check by out competing them fir nutrients and/ or eating them? I also dosed with vodka to enhance nitrate removal. Essentially the object is to weaken the dinos as much as possible. As soon as you see signs that it takes longet for dinos to dirty up the glass and sandbed flood the tank with live phytoplankton, pods and whatever your LFS may offer along those lines. If you had a crash caused by marine algae killers repopulating the "good guy" micro plankton after weakening the dinos serms to work. It will also benefit your filter feeders.


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Old 07/12/2015, 07:12 AM   #1249
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Blackouts do not deter dinos. You must keep in mind that dinos bevome water column swimmers at night. Night time activities appeal to them so it seems likely dark isn't much of a threat. How many times have I looked at my "clean" sandbed in the early morning thinking I was winning the battle? (Show of hands please) UV sterilizers properly applied, meaning as slow as possible water flow through your unit ifyou have one. Stay AWAY from marine algae killers! They do not discriminate between killing unwanted algae (HA in my case), and the micro critters which are keeping dinos in check by out competing them fir nutrients and/ or eating them? I also dosed with vodka to enhance nitrate removal. Essentially the object is to weaken the dinos as much as possible. As soon as you see signs that it takes longet for dinos to dirty up the glass and sandbed flood the tank with live phytoplankton, pods and whatever your LFS may offer along those lines. If you had a crash caused by marine algae killers repopulating the "good guy" micro plankton after weakening the dinos serms to work. It will also benefit your filter feeders.
Two things I would add is that water changes encourage dinos when they are blooming and physical removal such as vacuuming them through a 40uM or less filter sock and socks on your drains helps a lot.


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Old 07/12/2015, 07:30 AM   #1250
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I do have a filter sock on the input line to my sump but unfortunately it is a 200 micron type. I did read a report stating that dinos range around 40 microns so your suggestion makes a lot of sense to me. I will get with my LFS and order up a finer one ASAP. Thanks.


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