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Old 01/19/2016, 09:31 AM   #2726
justthewife
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Where do you get Ultra-bio?


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90 gallon Fish only tank

Current Tank Info: 90 gal tank AquaMax skimmer LED EchoTech Gen 3 lights Gyre150 RO/DI water

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Old 01/19/2016, 09:44 AM   #2727
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Originally Posted by REEF DIVA View Post
I run 80 watts of UV continuous on my reef. I change the bulbs every 8 months. UV won't put a dent into dinoflagellates. I wish it would work but it won't. Biodiversity won't work either. I have very strong biodiversity in my reef system.
Reef Diva, I don't mean to be rude but are you sure you have dinos? Cyano can look very very similar, and it likes higher nutrient conditions like you'd see after a crash. UV probably wouldn't kill cyano as it's not floating around the water column at night.

Biodiversity with respect to dinos means microscopic flora and fauna, pods, sand bed organisms, etc and supplying enough food to sustain them.

"No magic bullet, use a multi-pronged approach" could be the theme song of this thread, unfortunately.
hth
ivy


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28g cube, CF 105watts! Tunze 9001. Tiny frags: Euphyllia, blasto, ricordea and a rock flower anemone. Lost fish and inverts due to ongoing outbreak of dinoflagellates.

Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15
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Old 01/19/2016, 09:45 AM   #2728
justthewife
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Is FM Ultra bio the same as Ultra Lith? Sorry for being dumb about this product


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Old 01/19/2016, 10:02 AM   #2729
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I left lights on longer than normal and dinos aren't on sand bed anymore, only on rocks. Any idea on if we leave lights on longer than normal, if this does anything? Phytoplankton needs 12 hours on and 12 hours off. What if we don't let dinos sleep? Stupid question, but hey, you never knowww
That's not a stupid question at all. You're seeing bubbles because your lights were on longer. Not to get into a big biochemistry discussion, but yes, too long a light period can harm photosynthetic organisms. Will it hurt dinos more than your SPS? I don't know and I *definitely* wouldn't risk pushing the photoperiod too much at once.


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28g cube, CF 105watts! Tunze 9001. Tiny frags: Euphyllia, blasto, ricordea and a rock flower anemone. Lost fish and inverts due to ongoing outbreak of dinoflagellates.

Current Tank Info: 28g aio, 105 watt CF lights, no sump or skimmer. 2 sexy shrimp, tiny frogspawn, tiny toadstool, tiny lps. Started Feb '15
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Old 01/19/2016, 10:37 AM   #2730
tastyfish
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Is FM Ultra bio the same as Ultra Lith? Sorry for being dumb about this product
Not a silly question at all. it's a mixture of bacteria, TBH, I suspect anything that increases the variety and number of bacteria and other micro organisms would benefit the fight.

What you are looking to avoid is removing a dominant organism and leaving a vacuum which other unwanted organisms (or the same ones) can exploit again...


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Old 01/19/2016, 10:39 AM   #2731
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Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy View Post
That's not a stupid question at all. You're seeing bubbles because your lights were on longer. Not to get into a big biochemistry discussion, but yes, too long a light period can harm photosynthetic organisms. Will it hurt dinos more than your SPS? I don't know and I *definitely* wouldn't risk pushing the photoperiod too much at once.


hth
ivy
Personally I'd ditch the UV, it's indiscriminate and you want to increase the competing bacteria etc in the water column. The dinoflagellates would disperse into the water column with a blackout anyway, use the skimmer and siphon to remove them.


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Old 01/19/2016, 10:40 AM   #2732
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the tank acting as a scrubber of sorts hold some merit. When my Dino problem was bad, I took out all corals and the dinos got out of control. The tank that the corals were placed in initially had a dino problem, but that eventually sorted itself out.


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Old 01/19/2016, 11:30 AM   #2733
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Personally I'd ditch the UV, it's indiscriminate and you want to increase the competing bacteria etc in the water column. The dinoflagellates would disperse into the water column with a blackout anyway, use the skimmer and siphon to remove them.
The bacteria is primarily in the filter media - sand, rock, plumbing, surfaces... They're not in the water column like dinos.

Sure, they'll get killed too if they go in, but dinos have the unique behavior of free floating in the dark. This makes them especially vulnerable to UV with a protracted lights out phase.

But as the dinos die, they need to be exported out - wet skimming. They also leave a hole in the ecosystem that must be filled by other organisms. I don't think bacteria is the answer. I added phyto myself. But bacteria may be part of the answer too. I also added pods, live rock, live sand (yes-really), new chaeto, and fed... Once the dinos were being killed, I wanted to give every other competing organism a chance to fill the void in the food chain! I threw the kitchen sink of life at them wanting to introduce any element that could outcompete them. I even bought the most invasive photosynthetic corals I could- rhodactis on two massive pieces of live rock covered in worms and sponges. Yes- I introduced aggressive corals in the middle of the Dino fight.

Something won out in the end- but I can't say what it was. I just know that my chaeto started performing again and I began exporting. I even added an ATS and the algae fills up like a machine now and I feed heavily but export very hard too.


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Old 01/19/2016, 12:09 PM   #2734
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Don't do a 3 day. It wont work. Others who have tried this have even witnessed the dinos coming back together in the water column when the lights come back on.

8 days minimum (I think I did 10) *complete* blackout (including sump, grow lights etc) with the tank covered, then slowly bring in blue-lights only over the next two weeks before introducing white WILL kill off nearly all of them.

Don't do half measures. at 4/5 days, I still had dinos clinging on, they were certainly in the water column past this time.
the point of the 3 day isn't to eradicate them as i mentioned in a later post...the point is simply to knock them back quite a bit which will allow other algaes to take a foothold...he has corals, sps in his pictures, an 8 day will surely kill them...and you have no idea what dinos i nor he has so you have no idea what a 3 day would do...in my tank 3 days is all it took to clear them every single time and, followed by UV and dirty method is all it took

besides, prolonged blackouts may or may not be any different from shorter ones as the dinos are likely to return considering they can form cysts for months and survive in complete darkness...blackouts aren't the answer, they're just used to weaken the dino population in perparation for the real attack


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Old 01/19/2016, 12:13 PM   #2735
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Personally I'd ditch the UV, it's indiscriminate and you want to increase the competing bacteria etc in the water column. The dinoflagellates would disperse into the water column with a blackout anyway, use the skimmer and siphon to remove them.
UV worked for me on one occasion without the dirty method so it most definitely is a viable option. There is enough bacteria on the surface area of the rocks and sand that you are not disrupting the bacteria population by zapping a few in the water column. A skimmer by itself isn't enough to eradicate dinoflagellates or this thread would never have reached 100+ pages.


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Old 01/19/2016, 07:23 PM   #2736
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I agree that the nitrogen cycle bacteria live mostly on rock surfaces, so UV is safe in that regard.


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Old 01/19/2016, 08:35 PM   #2737
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Guys I'm pretty bummed. I'm doing the dirty method and it seems like it's getting a lot worse. No red slime or anything. Any ideas on what I shold do?


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Old 01/19/2016, 08:45 PM   #2738
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How long have you been trying this approach? Are any corals or other animals having trouble?


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Old 01/19/2016, 08:49 PM   #2739
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Dinoflagellates

PorkchopExpress

I don't have dinoflagellates. I posted a cure for dinoflagellates which took me a hour to compose and which does work based upon the writing of Randy Holmes Farley. If anyone seriously wants help with this problem, then send me a message and I will tell you what to do. I am going to tell you it is a lot of hard work and it is not what I posted.

Last year I had a client's tank crash because they turned off the heat in the entire building and the room went down to 40 degrees. Needless to say almost everything died. All the rock became covered with dinoflagellates. I took all of the rock home and put them into a 90 gallon tank, no fish, no coral, good flow, new, clean water, LED light and watched the dinoflagellates thrive for months. I kept turning the lights on for a few weeks and off for a few weeks. Got nowhere.

Finally I left the lights off for several months. Finally after 1 year it appears that the dinoflagellates are finally gone. Is anybody really scared now. Because this little experiment really blows my mind. This is how insidious dinoflagellates can be.


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Old 01/19/2016, 08:51 PM   #2740
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How long have you been trying this approach? Are any corals or other animals having trouble?
The dinos are killing some of my sps. Keep landing on them. I blow them off and 30 mins later, they are on same spot. I've been trying now for 4 days. Nto sure how long it's supposed to be.

I feed 4 time a day pellets (fat thumb pinch) or 1 cube of mysis and 1 cube cyclops with dirty water and all.

Dinos are even covering spots that had green hair algae growing and growing their own brown hair.


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Old 01/19/2016, 09:45 PM   #2741
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Originally Posted by Billybatz9 View Post
The dinos are killing some of my sps. Keep landing on them. I blow them off and 30 mins later, they are on same spot. I've been trying now for 4 days. Nto sure how long it's supposed to be.

I feed 4 time a day pellets (fat thumb pinch) or 1 cube of mysis and 1 cube cyclops with dirty water and all.

Dinos are even covering spots that had green hair algae growing and growing their own brown hair.
Im on the same boat billy..
Feed phyto 2wice a day pellets 2wice a day bout 2 big pinches
Mysid cube and cyclop cube
Also added a 2 bags of algagen tisbe chaeto full of pods..also dosing mb7 and biopronto bacteria..seems like the dinos blew up!


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Old 01/19/2016, 09:49 PM   #2742
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Im on the same boat billy..
Feed phyto 2wice a day pellets 2wice a day bout 2 big pinches
Mysid cube and cyclop cube
Also added a 2 bags of algagen tisbe chaeto full of pods..also dosing mb7 and biopronto bacteria..seems like the dinos blew up!
Its like food for these guys. I'm not sure what else to do. All I've done has made it worse. This sucks. Everyone has success with dirty method while you and me over here are hand feeding them. Lol


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Old 01/19/2016, 09:51 PM   #2743
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Its like food for these guys. I'm not sure what else to do. All I've done has made it worse. This sucks. Everyone has success with dirty method while you and me over here are hand feeding them. Lol
Lmao..thats how it feels.


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Old 01/19/2016, 09:52 PM   #2744
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Lmao..thats how it feels.
So what's your plan? I'm really considering doing a water change. Lol


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Old 01/19/2016, 09:58 PM   #2745
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Well, I probably would find some other approach at this point, but this method might work given more time.


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Old 01/19/2016, 10:12 PM   #2746
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So what's your plan? I'm really considering doing a water change. Lol
Porkchop mentioned a 3 day black out just to knock them back..thats what im thinking..but first im setting up this small frag tank im putting together move some frags then black out my tank.



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Old 01/20/2016, 09:15 AM   #2747
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Guys I'm pretty bummed. I'm doing the dirty method and it seems like it's getting a lot worse. No red slime or anything. Any ideas on what I shold do?
You've only been doing the dirty method for five days according to your post two days ago saying you'd been doing it for three days. Maybe you should give it more time?


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Old 01/20/2016, 10:13 AM   #2748
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You've only been doing the dirty method for five days according to your post two days ago saying you'd been doing it for three days. Maybe you should give it more time?
I agree. I've been purposefully keeping my tank dirty for maybe 6 weeks now? 5 days of the dirty method didn't do anything for me. 6 weeks later I'm seeing almost no dinos, but cyano showed up for the first time. Which in my opinion is good...cyano is less of a headache than dinos are for me.


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Old 01/20/2016, 11:51 AM   #2749
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the point of the 3 day isn't to eradicate them as i mentioned in a later post...the point is simply to knock them back quite a bit which will allow other algaes to take a foothold...he has corals, sps in his pictures, an 8 day will surely kill them...and you have no idea what dinos i nor he has so you have no idea what a 3 day would do...in my tank 3 days is all it took to clear them every single time and, followed by UV and dirty method is all it took

besides, prolonged blackouts may or may not be any different from shorter ones as the dinos are likely to return considering they can form cysts for months and survive in complete darkness...blackouts aren't the answer, they're just used to weaken the dino population in perparation for the real attack
It's hard, but my and other's LPS and SPS came through. I have spoken to several people who have had dinos return en-mass after 3-4 day blackouts, and 8+ days worked for me, dino's were still present after 3 days.


So what is "the real attack"? Have I missed something?

The idea of the approach I successfully used was to create such a hostile environment to dinoflagellates using multiple factors that the dinos die off and are exported without adding to the problem.

If you simply knock them back a bit, you risk having a gap created in the ecosystem and significant numbers of dinoflagellates that can multiply to fill it. I'm not sure you intended to, but your post suggests that the dinos came back as you stated it's worked for you "every single time?" Same tank or different tanks?

You also rightly suggest that I do not know what species of dinoflagellate is in the tank, I would suggest this is true and by that same notion, you have no clue if a 3 day will work against the species being dealt with.

What I am trying to emphasise is that this is a heavy undertaking and one that you don't want to go through twice.

It's the reef owner's problem, so the risk is up to them and should be weighed up on an individual basis.



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Old 01/20/2016, 01:12 PM   #2750
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It's hard, but my and other's LPS and SPS came through. I have spoken to several people who have had dinos return en-mass after 3-4 day blackouts, and 8+ days worked for me, dino's were still present after 3 days.
reports of blackouts actually curing dinos are very slim and the risk to the already stressed SPS inhabitants are far too great when your blackout exceeds past 3 days...that magic number "3" isn't only from my own personal experiences either, just do a simple Google search for "how long can SPS go without light" and you're met with multiple links to surveys with hundreds of posts that they've gone 3 days with no ill effects to SPS...many even do regular monthly 3 day blackouts to help with other algae issues...but from my own personal experience my SPS started showing signs of stress and STN'ing at the 4 day mark...YMMV

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So what is "the real attack"? Have I missed something?
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in my tank 3 days is all it took to clear them every single time and, followed by UV and dirty method is all it took
real attack being the dirty method...if a UV is present then it also helps alongside the blackout to further decrease dino population...it's not necessary but neither is the blackout really...i think dirty method with a healthy population of copepods plus daily dosing of phyto is probably the minimum cure to dinos...however, the 3 day blackout and UV really kicks them back and gives you a head start on that competing algae repopulation that occurs due to the extra nutrients from going dirty..however seeing his pics of his dino infested rocks, i honestly think he needs to kick those dinos back a little bit, just enough to allow competing algae to take a foothold but not so much that he kills all his SPS


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