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Old 08/28/2016, 09:21 PM   #3976
robertifly
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Thanx I am a little suspect myself about being able to get completely rid of them even with the most ardent cleaning. I do mean to dispose of the the sand and rock, and plumbing. Again I do appreciate the concerns, reading some recent posts about bleach and a Metz which I may give a try before taking everything down, not much to lose now 8 months and counting with a ugly tank. If fresh water dip fish, how long? and do you move fish straight from fresh water to a .0122 sg water?


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Old 08/28/2016, 10:45 PM   #3977
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I'd look up some information in the fish disease forum on freshwater dips. I suspect a fairly short one would be enough for dinoflagellates, but there are guidelines available that might have more precautions. You can just move the fish from the tank to the dip water. I would match the temperature somewhat closely. You could just float the bag for the dip in the tank for a while. Some species don't do well with fresh water dips, so I'd be a bit cautious, and check each species for compatibility. I've never had any problems with them, though.


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Old 08/29/2016, 11:37 AM   #3978
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Oops, I had to fix a typo in my post. I meant a Lugol's dip for the corals, and maybe a fresh water dip for the fish.
Possibly dinos hanging on the fish skin and gills would drop off, but you also have to deal with the ones in their gut. In a severely infested tank there could be a dino in every drop of water and on most of the algae a tang would be eating all day. I'd bet dinos or cysts could be found in all my fish guts at all times. Cross contamination is almost certain for amateurs since a finger dipped in an infested tank is likely to move dinos into the quarantine tank.

Then there is the question if these dinos also find their way into corals.

I think all tanks have multiple species of harmful dinos that are kept in place, by the invisible force.
(That is likely to be a chemical war in balance).


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Old 08/29/2016, 05:26 PM   #3979
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Do you think that many dinoflagellates would survive a trip through a digestive system? I don't think I'd worry much about that, but I'm often wrong. I suppose feeding the fish an antibiotic food for a few days might help.


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Old 08/29/2016, 06:31 PM   #3980
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I believe one paper I read showed dinoflagelets making it through the digestive system of some fish.


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Old 08/29/2016, 07:05 PM   #3981
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That's interesting. I'd like to read that paper, if you could find it.


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Old 08/29/2016, 07:25 PM   #3982
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I will try but no guarantees.

Hopefully its in one of the links I've posted in another thread. I'll start there at some point.


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Old 08/30/2016, 06:00 PM   #3983
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Marine velvet is a dinoflagellate.... So not all dinos are equally virulent.

http://m.liveaquaria.com/general/gen...ral_pagesid=83


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Old 09/01/2016, 09:18 AM   #3984
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My tank's still visibly Dinoflagellate free after tackling them almost a year ago. How is everyone else doing?


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Old 09/02/2016, 12:15 PM   #3985
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My qt tank is still ok, its early though. Wouldn't consider them beat until 6mo or so.


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Old 09/04/2016, 01:19 PM   #3986
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Not a trace for months.


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Old 09/04/2016, 02:48 PM   #3987
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Mine haven't come back. It's been about two years now.


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Old 09/04/2016, 03:14 PM   #3988
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Not a trace for months.
Can u remind us what ur treatment were?


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Old 09/05/2016, 11:46 AM   #3989
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What microscope do I need to buy to determine what I have ? What do you think about this ?

https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Micr...rds=Microscope


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Old 09/06/2016, 12:20 PM   #3990
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That might show a lot. It's hard to be sure about optical quality, but it's likely fine.


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Old 09/08/2016, 03:34 AM   #3991
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Can u remind us what ur treatment were?
I removed the sand, doubled my flow for a month, added Large UV light and did many large water changes.


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Old 09/09/2016, 02:21 AM   #3992
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Can we trust 80 scientists?
https://www.iucn.org/news/latest-oce...ure-and-humans

It's amazing how little we know of the toxins we as reefers are harboring at home.
We know what a single dinoflagellate in the bloodstream can do and that they can get airborne with ocean mist and that the toxins persist through boiling.

Knowing that, I can imagine they persist through drying out and reefers are bound to breath in small amounts from dried out splashes, nets, equipment and filter socks and we have no information on the long term exposure effects. We also bring them into our bodies with our fingers and hands.

They could just as well be degrading our quality of life right now with subtle neurological symptoms on exposed organs like eyes, the airway and lungs. Can we prove that they don't do that?

In the ocean they stack up in exposed animals causing poisoning in people that eat them. Are we immune to these stacking effects as we eat or breath dinos. Do we know if they don't effect they brain? Are our kids safe?

We should be concerned and careful especially if we have visible dinos in our mini reefs at home.
The lack of knowledge is disturbing so I recommend all of the precautions.


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Old 10/06/2016, 04:23 AM   #3993
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Great Post guys, amazing information about dinos, thanks to all of you for your contribution about your findings and experiences with this pest now I'm gonna tell you my story.

I began at august 2015, I got my nano 20 AIO gallon tank with live rock and live sand from my LFS, the sand and the rock were wet and previously cycled.

Then after 3 days I added my first fish and a couple margarita snails.

One month later I got a few new fishes, 2 chromies, 1 royal gramma, 1 damsel and 3 mollies and I think a couple snails. Since the first day I didn't have either chaeto or skimmer just pure live sand and live rock with filtration sponges as filtration.

In the next couple of months some of my fishes and snails started to die for different reasons, my royal gramma got stuck in the sump with the sponges, one of my chromies killed the other chromie and my damsel, my snails died I think because of no algae at that moment.

By october/november I only have one ocellaris, one chromie and 3 mollies in my tank, so I checked my phosphates and they were pretty hight, about 0.20 with my hanna phosphates checker so I went to my LFS and got some GFO for reducing my phosphates, then I also got an azoo algae away filter to reduce my phosphates.

In the next days I was checking my phosphates about 2 to 3 times per week and I noticed that my GFO was exausted almost daily so I went to my LFS and I asked the manager for a tiny ball of chaeto so I get like 90% chaeto and 10% of culerpa macroalgae and from this day I got rid of my GFO for all.

Now with my macroalgae as phosphate remover I decided to check my phosphates and I noticed that the phosphates were a litle bit better now but still hight, specially after turning off my pumps when feeding, at that time I checked the phosphates befoe and after feeding and I got readings of 0.10 and 0.20 after 5 minutes of feeding so I thought the food was pretty high of phosphates so I started to reducing my feedings at the point that my mollies began to die one my one in the next months.

Nowing that I had a phosphate issue I dediced to wait until my chaeto grew slowly by consuming the phosphates instead of using any sort of GFO.

Now with my chaeto consuming my phosphates I decided to get rid of the azoo Algae Away and I got my first corals, I know I know it was too soon but I couldn't resist so I went with a guy that has a few tanks and two huge 400 gallon tanks or so and I bought him a couple montiporas capricornis, one rodactis, one green mushroom, a tiny piece of green star polyp and one pulsing xenia and as a gift he gave me a green polyp (I don't know that much about it because I don't like polyps).

With my corals I got the feeling I had when I was 7 years old and I was openining my christmast pressents, those days I was very happy with my corals, the firsts days they were doing pretty good, specially the soft corals, a few days later I was starting to see something that I was never able to see, my first pests, this pests were a tiny aiptasia, for my luck I knew the existence of this pests so I boiled it and the problem was gone, now after a few more days I also saw a tiny little brittle star, I didn't like those dust like stars so I started to do a research over internet and most people said that those stars were not an issue so I let them to grow in my tank without killing them. So with this two pests I think this guy gave me somethink that I didn't know was going to gimme the headeaches in a few months from now.

After about two weeks of getting my corals, my montiporas started to STN at some points, the green one was getting bleach/ totally RTN and the red one RTNing on different parts so checking my phosphates I knew that my PO4 was not the issue so I knew that I was going to need a skimmer soon, I didn't got one yet because christmas was around the corner and I also coundn't afford it so I was trying to reduce my nitrates with just water changes and small feeding my fishes.

Now with my rock and sand leaching phosphates (at this point I didn't know this was happining) but also with my high nitrates (I couldn't check them because I didn't know that I had nitrates problems) so with low feeing em my mollies started to die one by one and cyano started to appear to my tank.

In the next weeks I wanted to get rid of the cyano so I bought some lights for my sump, one led light at top, one light at the back and one light in the water, the next weeks the cyano was spreading specially the sump but after a few weeks my chaeto with good lighting was able to consume the nutrients to make the cyano to go away.

After beggining to get rid of the cyano I got another issue, this time algae began to appear in all the tank, I thought with the chaeto I was going to get rid of the algae but I was not the case so now with no cyano I got a huge infestation of thread algae, now instead of getting a reef tank I got an algarium tank, algae was everywere covering all the rocks and plastics of the tank.

At this point I knew that a skimmer was necesary, I didn't had the money and I know that buying a cheap one was going to be a waste of money so I got a loan and bought a remora aqua c, with my skimmer running, in just a couple days I saw a huge difference, now my montiporas were starting to un RTN and get the colors they were supposed to get, also slowly the algae began to slowly fade, I had to do lots of cleaning of the filter sponges but after a few weeks all the algae was gone, now I got a perfect tank, no cyano and barelly seen algae.

Now with everything in check I decided to get a few more corals so I got some SPS from the guy that sold me the first corals and some other people.

I coulnd't believe I was very happy now my corals were growing, getting back to their colors and slowly recovering the ones that were RTN before.

But this was about to change, in may/june 2016 the perfect storm came to my tank. Now with everythink working as expected I dediced to do a further step, so I got a few more animals for my tank, I got a couple nasarious snails, a couple mexican turbos, some astreas and a lawnmover blennie and a MANDARIN DRAGONET, I know that creature in a small tank wont survive but trust me I was doing lots of readings and I found a way to keep that mandarin in a small tank.

So knowing that my mandarin was going to need lots of feedings I bought one of those packs that includes 2 phytoplanktons, and copepods it was pretty expensive to import to my country, but I had no choice because of my mandarin so I bought them because I though I was going to be able to harvest them but after lots intents it just failed, I know you in the states can harvest this pretty easily but in my case it was a failure, I also posted about it here and I was doing the right thing, but just didn't work, so now I had to find a way to feed my mandarin fish so I found that the cheapest and easiest way was harvesting brine shrimp, this eggs are easy to find and harvest so I started my brine shrimp harvesting, so to harvest I was using the water from my tank so with this I was doing lots of water changes, with the increase of the water changes I saw a huge improvement on my corals so I was pretty happy so I decided to go a step further, now I was decided to get a couple of acroporas but I knew my current lights were not going to be enought so I got a radion and also since I knew I was going to need more chaeto for my mandarin I algo got more lights for my refugium and I also was having problems with temperature, at 4 PM I was getting about 84 degres and at 7 AM I was getting 78 so I knew that my skimmer was warming up the water so I got a Reef Octopus HOB 90 that has an external pump so it doesn't warms the water.

Now with my new gadgets, I was getting out of salt mix, at that time I was using fluval salt but my LFS stoped importing that salt and I had no choice to get another salt so I got a bag or Red Sea Coral Pro salt.

After a few days with my new gadgets, my nightmare was beggining to appear, first my corals were slowly bleaching so I red over internet that aminoacids could prevent bleaching so I got a Seachem Reef Plus, after adding it, instead of getting rid of the bleaching my corals were starting to bleach even further, it took me a few weeks to figure out that Reef Plus was the cause so I email Seachem about my issue and he asked me lots of questions, he asked me about my tank parameters, at this point the only two parameters I knew about my tank were temperature and phosphates, alkalinity, nitrates, calcum and magnesium were unknown to me. So as a good customer I got some tests kits and I began to test my parameters, most of them were in check with the exception of alkalinity that even with my almost daily water changes I got pretty low, about 6dKH, I couldn't believe it because the alkalinity of the Red Sea Pro salt is about 10 at 1.025 of salt, so the other parameters I checked were calcum at about 400 and magnesium about 1400 and nitrates 0 with salifert kit, not a single change or color, the color was as if I didn't added the 4 drops and the dust.

So now I started to check my parameters about once or twice a week from this point, now I started of add alkalinity and calcum daily, and I was trying to get the supposed values of the alkalinity and calcium that the Red Sea Salt mix is supposed to have. In about a week or so I slowly rised my alkalinity to 10dkh and the calcium was about 420 but now the unaffected SPS were starting to get bleached so I did another research and I found that when you have 0 nitrates and 0 phosphates you have to keep your alkalinity at 7-8dKH so I waited until the alkalinity was back to those values, now after a couple weeks with an alkalinity between 7.5dKH and 8dKH my SPS were not recovering at all so I thought what else can be wrong, I also reduced the lights of my radeons but still the problem was there.

This time I came with another idea, so I started to add food at night when the chaeto lights were off, so after a few days now my acros started to RTN so I stopped doing it, now no more night feeding, with my acros now RTN I was really afraid, I didn't know what else to do so I got and idea, I thought what if I rise the phosphates and nitrates a little bit, for phosphates was easy, just a little bit of food and that's it, but for nitrates I got recommended to use KNO3 but since my acros were RTNning I thought were can I get nitrates and phosphates at 11PM so I thought (what if I use some whater of my planted tank), it has nitrates and phosphates, I know it also has iron but I also had chaeto so I knew iron was not going to be an issue so I added about 500 ml of water from my planted tank.

When I wake up the next day ..... BLOOOOOM, all my tank was covered with this bastards, I was finally able to see why I my corals were slowly dying.

Now nowing that I had dinos I found this amazing thread and I started to read it all, I red every single page from this thread and I just have to say thank you guys I learn a lot about microbiology with this thread, and of course now I had some theories and weapons to use against this bastards.

To Be Continue...


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Old 10/06/2016, 07:12 AM   #3994
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Nobody has been able to rid their tank of dinos and repeat the method with success.
There is no cure....yet.

It could have been dinos the whole time, you just didn't realize it.


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Old 10/07/2016, 04:04 AM   #3995
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Nobody has been able to rid their tank of dinos and repeat the method with success.
There is no cure....yet.

It could have been dinos the whole time, you just didn't realize it.
About my findings, it seems like dinos feed by trace elements, when I added water from my planted tank to increase my nitrates and phosphates I good a bloom, so dinos need some trace elements, that's why some people with bad RODI equipment have dinos.

Some food, specially coral food like reef roids/coral frenzy and some refrigerated food like cyclops see to feed them, I got bubbles to appear from nowhere in just a few minutes after adding this kinds of foods.

I think that dinos need lots of oxigen, I remember when one biologist was asking for samples and he wasn't able to keep them alive so to me I think the reason why they died is because of lack of oxygen so I'm doing some test with turning off all the water circulation equipment for about 2 hours daily. I've read a guy saying that he got rid of his dinos by boiling its water so increasing the temperature also reduces the oxygen so maybe somebody else with a microscope test this and check if this works, maybe just increasing the temperature to about 84 degrees with no skimmer for a few days will be enough to kill them.

I know, but I think I got them when I bought my first corals, this guys doesn't even use RODI as top of water, I didn't know about that because I was a noob with reef keeping.

Now my current plan is this:

Increased nitrates and phosphates, but it seems like I also have to increase alkalinity, calcum and magnesium, without increasing all of them seems to be useless.

I got some live sand from my LFS, I told him that I needed lots of microfauna creatures so I hope this new sand which I just added (my DSB incresed by 1 cm) helps to kill this Ostreopsis (not checked yet with a micro but I'm pretty sure is that one).

I need to identify this Dino, I'm pretty shure it is Ostreopsis but I have to confirm.

I never did the blackout because seems useless so instead I'm keeping my lights as if I didn't had dinos.

Since I have a mandarin, using a H2O2 will kill all his food so H2O2 is not an option either.

I was thinking about metronidazole but it seems that doesn't kills them so I don't think this will be a good idea.

I also was thinking to get real sea water but not sure if it's gonna help.

Right now my corals are recovering, with the exception of a pulsing xenia and a kenia tree, my birdnest seems to be gone .

Right now my skimmer doesn't runs all the time, and my chaeto is not getting all the light either so I can increase my phosphates and nitrates.

I removed my filtration sponges, I'm just relying on my skymmer, chaeto and live sand/rock as filtration.

I was thinking to get some phyto but the only one accessible seems to be that kent ChromaMax and PhytoMax but not sure if it's gonna help.



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Old 10/09/2016, 06:55 PM   #3996
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We have tried so many things that you should aim for something wildly different from what has already been proven to be futile.


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Old 10/10/2016, 12:43 AM   #3997
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Yeah, right now what I've found is that if you keep your system at low nutrients not very low, nitrates 0.25 and phosphates at 0.02 they they seem to gone. I also tried reducing the nitrates to 0 and *** soon as they are at 0 turn off the skimmer and let the nitrates rise, the same can be applied to phosphates, reduce them to 0 and then let them slowly rise.

Right now I'm turning un my skimmer when the nitrates rise for about 1ppm, then skimming back to 0.00 ppm of nitrates and turn off the skimmer. In other words your base point is 0.00pmm nitrates, turn off the skimmer, wait until they rise a little bit then turn on the skimmer for a few hours then turn it off.

In a different schedule I'm working for the phosphates so for example if I turn on the skimmer between 10PM to 2AM and running the chaeto lights just 20 minutes in the mourning and 20 minutes before the sunset. This seems to keep them busy, at least they are in control and the affected corals are starting to recover.

I also checked the high alkalinity trick but it doesn't seems to be a solution in all cases. In my case if I let the nitrates to rise above 1ppm they start to appear so with no way to rise the nitrates I can't also rise the alkalinity.

So my current findings seems to be tank dependent, in some tanks you can rise your nitrates at very high levels and this helps to kill them, but in my case I just need to rise them a little bit.

Keeping so low nitrates is very difficult so what I'm doing is check the glass, if the glass starts to grow brown stuffs I run the skimmer for a few hours to make them fade.


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Old 10/10/2016, 09:21 AM   #3998
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Well, it's interesting.

I can tell you right now that the last time I had them I dumped an entire bottle each of the phosphate and nitrate supplement into the tank.

The dinos population EXPLODED. Doubled in size easily within one day.

But within about 5 days I started seeing green algae. That's the sign you're through dinos.

I have no idea if the dinos burned themselves out of something essential thanks to the sudden population growth or if some competitor algaes just started to take hold finally as a result of all those nutrients.

So, I believe the goal here is to be reasonably low nutrients, but try to keep your algae diversity. Don't ever go for complete extermination of your green film algae or anything. You want a little around.

Also, you know what else came roaring back? Coraline algae.


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Old 10/10/2016, 01:01 PM   #3999
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I tried to keep my nitrates and phosphates a little bit high for about 3ppm Nitrantes and 0.12 phosphates, algae started to appear, bubble algae and also and unknown black algae like that was covering dying and week corals so I had to reduce nitrates and phosphates again before this "algae" grew more.

I noticed that when I go 0 nitrates and then I let them rise I can see a clear glass and the coraline algae seems to be clear as well.

My coraline algae has covered every single plastic in my tank so to me seeing this alkaline algae to grow is gonna be pretty hard because it is everywere.

I'm pretty concern about this "black" algae that appear when I rise my nitrates because I think this is some other pest that you don't have so maybe I have to deal not just with dinos, correct me if I'm wrong.


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Old 10/10/2016, 03:05 PM   #4000
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I have never seen the black algae. But, I do get the bubble algae. I hate that one. I get it at every single level of nutrients. I just manually remove as much as I can usually when I get the time.


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