Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > The Reef Chemistry Forum
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 11/21/2016, 11:19 PM   #4026
neiltus
Registered Member
 
neiltus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 467
While keeping Ph high, I have ordered some Dr Tims Bacteria and a bag of 5k pods and phytoplankton


__________________
Build Thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2592260
neiltus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/22/2016, 07:58 AM   #4027
neiltus
Registered Member
 
neiltus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 467
There is an interesting thread in another forum where people are throwing all types of stuff at different types of dinos-from metro to household bleach.

Two members on that thread have what look to be Amphidinium populations on the sandbed. Their fix..vacumm the bed, reduce lighting to 4-6 hours, bottle of dr tim's, introduce pods and plankton. Repeat every few days as long as there are visible populations on the sand.

This seems like a pretty non-invasive way to do things. Going to try this when the goods arrive prior to using meds or caustic solutions.


__________________
Build Thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2592260
neiltus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/23/2016, 04:06 PM   #4028
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,512
The fact my dinos have stayed at almost undetectable levels for weeks is insignificant compared to the positive side effects that followed their departure.
I'm not going into any details here on Reef Central, but I find it very likely that harboring a dino bloom in your home will affect your mental health.

I've felt this positive side effect on my vacations away from home, but as you know vacations are relaxing and nice so even though I suspected the dinos I could not come forward with this earlier. It took two weeks, after I got the dinos under control, for me to be convinced my mental capability was improving noticeably in several areas so now is the time to come forward with this.

Some of the effects of the Ostreopsis dinoflagellates neuro-toxins on humans is well known and to name a few like breathing problems, eye irritation and death one can see dinos are well capable to cause harm. It should not come as a surprise that they can cause several other illnesses that have not been well documented or researched yet and the brain is all about neurons so why should it be excluded? I know about mold in homes and how it effects those that are exposed to it long term and I see many similarities between these two.

How the dinos get from the tank into the human body is anyones guess, but I can think of a few ways like into your lungs with mist from the surface and skimmer, dried out filter socks and evaporated seawater out of the tank. If you are doing micro bubbles this is amplified exponentially. Then there is entry through the mouth and the eyes with smearing from fingers, skin and clothes.

The effect could creep in so slowly it is not noticed and we are not yet publicly aware of that dinoflagellates can diminish our brains processes so we just don't have a clue when it settles in.

This is probably the most important discovery I've ever made and I think it has to be heard, discussed and proven so please spread these words.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/26/2016, 07:23 PM   #4029
ocho cinco
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 12
I read through some of this thread but man is it long.

Looking for recommendations for my scenario. I have a 30 gallon. Dinos are pretty minimal but enough to keep attaching to my zoas and preventing them to open. What approach should I take and how drastic?

Thanks!


ocho cinco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/28/2016, 10:56 AM   #4030
neiltus
Registered Member
 
neiltus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 467
So, about a week into this, done a few days of the high pH thing, also did a wc. I will also note a couple observations.

1) I put in a magnetic frag rack to keep some small frags away from the bulldozer snails. I noticed this rack, which is up high to get a lot of light and no access from CUC...well, dino loves loves loves it. I would assume that this is because there is nothing walking on it, disrupting it's growth or molesting it in any way.

Since dino is in our systems just not all at 'ugly' levels. Could a dino 'outbreak' in a tank be because there is not enough natural movement of water and creatures to keep it from settling in a spot and 'getting ugly'? Stirring it up might help push it into the filter socks and skimmer, where it can be exported and the tank be kept looking decent.


2. Since my conchs are now off strike and back at work, the sandbed looks wonderful. This observation also kinda supports what I see on the frag rack above. I do think they eat the dino, but with a microscope and dissecting one, I will not know. Might try it at one point. I did order some FL and MEX cerith snails.

My tank has been fish free since July. There are some inverts in there that I target feed about once a week. I have been keeping fish free b/c of QT new fishes and getting a good fallow period prior (>4 months) to introducing fish. I had a minimal CUC - 9 snails, 2 conchs, couple shrimp. I think this practice has accelerated the problem quite a bit-too little going on results in a habitat where the dino can overpopulate and not be harassed.

One thing is bugging me though. After introducing GFO a few weeks back I had a strong die-off of GHA and my pH range dropped. With this I started seeing the dino. This goes in the too clean category and kinda follows the 'I made habitat for them' thought. So, I ordered a ball of cheato and some shaving brush macro. The cheato is going in the sump and the shaving brush is pretty enough to go in the DT. I also dumped a bag of pods in the tank. A little GHA is not bad, but when we start taking stuff to the extreme with ultra low PO4 then we can expect the lowest common denominator life forms to move in.

Anyway, just some thoughts and observations. I will chime back in after I double up on CUC and get the plants in the tank.


__________________
Build Thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2592260
neiltus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/29/2016, 02:46 AM   #4031
E36328i
Registered Member
 
E36328i's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Atascadero, California
Posts: 241
#3695

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


E36328i is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/30/2016, 11:53 AM   #4032
neiltus
Registered Member
 
neiltus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 467
Well, a few things I have done have visually eliminated the substrate buildup of what I thought to be Amphidinium.

1) Took GFO offline, was probably using too much too fast, and this brought my PO4 down big time, which probably allowed the Amphidinium to move into place because they were not competing with the upper algae types. Since taking GFO offline I am getting more green stuff on the rocks and my PO4 today was .27. I was running almost 1/4 c + and changing regularly every few days, did get the PO4 down under .07, but with it appeared the Amphidinium.

2) Changed carbon, running Seachem Purigen.

3) Added a bag of Pods. Added some Dr. Tims. Added some Phyto. Added some macro in the fuge.

4) Used Kalk over a few random days to bring pH up to 8.6-8.8 during lit period. Did this for 4 days with a break in between.

I doubt it's gone, but the environment has changed and is holding it back from being ugly.

One odd thing, I did add a frag rack, and that is pretty high in the tank and it is getting a dusting of a different brown bubbling dino. I think this stuff like to go to an environment that it does not have to compete in.


__________________
Build Thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2592260
neiltus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/30/2016, 05:25 PM   #4033
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,512
Many of your tests will end up in the gray zone rather than to have an actual result.
Do post your findings and especially if they are useful for the community.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/30/2016, 05:33 PM   #4034
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,512
I've been doing a series of tests on marine snow, debris, detritus and have to agree on what scientists say about it's part in the natural dinoflagellate blooms.

Even though I've seen dinos sitting on bare rocks the most common places they settle in is where there is organic debris. So this adds to the other parameters we have discussed frequently.

Here is an awesome photo that shows what dinos are doing when they are free swimming.
This has to be the same stuff that binds the dinos in mats.

https://youtu.be/4WB-NNS84Eg?t=2963


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/30/2016, 08:06 PM   #4035
neiltus
Registered Member
 
neiltus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNA View Post
I've been doing a series of tests on marine snow, debris, detritus and have to agree on what scientists say about it's part in the natural dinoflagellate blooms.

Even though I've seen dinos sitting on bare rocks the most common places they settle in is where there is organic debris. So this adds to the other parameters we have discussed frequently.

Here is an awesome photo that shows what dinos are doing when they are free swimming.
This has to be the same stuff that binds the dinos in mats.

https://youtu.be/4WB-NNS84Eg?t=2963
I will check it out. On a slow connection tonight...but will get to it.

It's interesting how Jason has taken his tank in and out of bloom a few times. For me, this just shows how one of us with dino/cyano/gha, can take or change one variable to the extreme thinking it's good for the tank, and something else quickly falls into it's place in the ecosystem.

I think a large part of my Amphidinium bloom was the use of GFO over the previous month. I was beating down a .5+ppm and I think I graciously overdid it too quickly and it was replaced by the bloom. I did manage to kill back all the GHA pretty quick.

Anyway, I added some GFO back in the reactor, to see if I can repeat the same thing...ha.


__________________
Build Thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2592260
neiltus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2016, 02:53 PM   #4036
africangrey
Registered Member
 
africangrey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: N San Jose
Posts: 1,430
man no wonder my mental stability and my cognitive functions have deteriorated since my osteo exploded. and continue on after gotten rig of them with dosing of Vibrant. I think the dino toxin will linger on and our liver or kidney isn't able to metabolize it. Wondering if anyone has examine the half life of of this substance.


africangrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2016, 05:38 PM   #4037
trmiv
Registered Member
 
trmiv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 3,189
So my tank is pretty much covered in dinos. I've had reefs for 12 years, and never had them. My current tank is a 120, but the bulk of the rock I've had for 9 years. It moved from a 40 to a 65 to a 60 and now to my 120. I've added dry base along the way. Moved into this 120 when we moved houses and the tank was beautiful for about two months until these nasties invaded. Since then my snails have died and my coral health has gone down the tubes.

I suspected they were dinos, but today my wife who is a teacher borrowed some microscopes from the science teacher at her school. I managed to maneuver my iphone to get some photos of these nasty things. Here is the best one. Does anyone know what species I'm dealing with here?




Here is a link to get the original image if that helps

https://postimg.org/image/5zs7cw9np/


__________________
Current tank: 120g 30g sump, 2x250w Hamilton on Lumatek ballast with Hamilton Cayman Sun reflectors, Avast Marine Pegleg 180 skimmer, Gyre 150, Eheim 1262 return
trmiv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2016, 08:05 PM   #4038
Fish Keeper82
Registered Member
 
Fish Keeper82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 694
Trmiv,
Here is a link of some of the most popular species in our tanks. The videos help with ID since the different species have different movements as well.
http://www.algaeid.com/identification/



Last edited by Fish Keeper82; 12/02/2016 at 08:26 PM.
Fish Keeper82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2016, 09:01 PM   #4039
trmiv
Registered Member
 
trmiv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 3,189
Thanks for the link. I'm not sure mine looks like any of those three. I took a video at various magnifications if anyone wants to see (forgive my daughter watching Elf in the background ). Mine move more like bumper cars, they are all over the place

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2sikyw914...AW0Sqfn5a?dl=0


and here is another pic i snapped

http://i.imgur.com/gXDEaZ6.jpg


__________________
Current tank: 120g 30g sump, 2x250w Hamilton on Lumatek ballast with Hamilton Cayman Sun reflectors, Avast Marine Pegleg 180 skimmer, Gyre 150, Eheim 1262 return
trmiv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/03/2016, 05:31 AM   #4040
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,512
trmiv: At least they are are not Ostis and they move so fast it looks like the videos are sped up.
What ever you have is toxic so take precautions.

african gray: I don't think anyone has even made this connection between dinos and mental health, but it has been done with mold and the symptoms can vary wildly on members of the same household.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/04/2016, 08:57 PM   #4041
Kurt03
Registered Member
 
Kurt03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,614
Very interesting DNA, re the nuero implications. Sounds like we absorb the toxin and then slowly metabolize it. Sounds like a couple weeks delay after getting fresh air points to the half life, or recovery time anyway. Very cool observation. Any idea how to research this more workout experimenting on our selves?


Kurt03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2016, 07:04 PM   #4042
rhinonm
Registered Member
 
rhinonm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Rio Rancho NM USA
Posts: 297
Check out a product called Vibrant. Huge thread on the other reef 2 reef site. I had a huge dino problem. Been dosing for 1+ month and they are 95% gone. Its a bacteria product. I tried everything..metro, dinox, blackouts, bleach (didn't go big enough).


__________________
180g 60x35x20 Rimless, 48" Sunpower, 5000 SRO Skimmer, 40" Advanced Acrylics Sump

Current Tank Info: 200g SPS
rhinonm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2016, 07:07 PM   #4043
jason2459
Registered Member

 
jason2459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 9,650
Checking it out
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2611990


__________________
rebuild and recovery log:
No more red house, you'll have to click on my name and visit my homepage!

You can check out my parameters at reeftronics dot net website and look for my username.

Current Tank Info: 180g mixed reef w/ a beananimal overflow to a dolomite RRUGF. | 20g long G. Smithii Mantis Tank
jason2459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2016, 07:30 PM   #4044
nematode
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Saint Louis
Posts: 675
We have tried so many things that you should aim for something wildly different from what has already been proven to be futile.

I am finally trying oryzalin (a plant "specific" microtubule inhibitor). See my post 340-343 for a little more detail. It has been two years and this one tank of mine still has this dinoflagelatte like condition (I think it is actually a Eudorina based on the looks), but it behaves like a classical dinoflagelllate.

Dosed a very low dose ( 3ml of 0.1 mg/ml in ethanol) this evening.

will push until I see an effect or run out of oryzalin


nematode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2016, 07:50 PM   #4045
neiltus
Registered Member
 
neiltus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by nematode View Post
We have tried so many things that you should aim for something wildly different from what has already been proven to be futile.

I am finally trying oryzalin (a plant "specific" microtubule inhibitor). See my post 340-343 for a little more detail. It has been two years and this one tank of mine still has this dinoflagelatte like condition (I think it is actually a Eudorina based on the looks), but it behaves like a classical dinoflagelllate.

Dosed a very low dose ( 3ml of 0.1 mg/ml in ethanol) this evening.

will push until I see an effect or run out of oryzalin
Interesting. Would like to hear back on this.

My Amphidinium issue seems under control as of today. I know there still there, but wonder if enough molestation I did cut them back:

Actions:
1) added another conch and some sandbed snails to stir up more crap
2) raised pH via Kalk, total of 5 days over 8.4 during lights on periods, gave a break after each day.
3) raised dkh from 8.3 -> ~9.5
4) dumped some pods in there.
5) Added some Dr. Tims
6) tried adding a shaving brush plant in the fuge, skimmer went ape and it stank, removed and replaced with some cheato.
7) Added some seachem purigen
8) Turned up light intensity a little

Also have a decent microscope on the way...so I can actually get an ID and photos on this stuff. Pretty excited about that. Had a clinical pathologist help me with the model.

I added back GFO on 11/30, maybe 2/10 cup to see if that would bring them back. Cleaned skimmer last sunday.

I hate to say the battle is done...but the sandbed looks nice.
PO4-.08 Hanna
NO3-25 Salifert
34.4 cond.
77.5-78.3
Ca 430
Mg 1350

I ordered a bottle of vibrant just to have on hand. Not dosed yet.


__________________
Build Thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2592260

Last edited by neiltus; 12/06/2016 at 08:03 PM.
neiltus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/07/2016, 12:01 PM   #4046
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,512
I took a brief look at the other Vibrant threads and what I read makes sense in several ways so I'm going to attempt to import it.
I have very little faith in bottled magic solutions, but have nothing to lose so why not.

I've established a firm believe, through my latest observations, that marine snow (debris or detritus) is essential to dinoflagellates.
My tank has the most dense floating particle count I've seen in any tank and that is without any sandbed and very short lighting period.
The skimmer is pulling less of it than I'd expect, but the filter sock can clog in a day. There is plenty of hard fecal pellets and calcareous particles in there that one would expect the skimmer to have a hard time to remove. It's been this way for a very long time and to my surprise the effect of removal of the sand-bed and drastically shorter lighting period, was negligent.

If the stuff works I've got a pretty good idea how we get dinos in the first place and how to maximize its chances.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/07/2016, 04:31 PM   #4047
TampaSnooker
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Land O Lakes, FL
Posts: 1,385
I'm not a fan of bacterial potions in general either, but used it on a customer's tank with ostis and in one week since I've seen the tank, about there was about 60% reduction. To be fair, we did do a bit of dirty method by dosing dead phyto so copepods had other foods to consume and not overdose on dinos.


__________________
With fronds like these, who needs anemones?
TampaSnooker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/30/2016, 09:28 AM   #4048
DNA
Registered Member
 
DNA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Iceland
Posts: 1,512
I've mentioned marine snow a few times now and none have picked up on how important it is.
Marine snow is essential for Ostreopsis dinoflagellates and probably other species of dinos as well.
I can say this now with certainty since I have no visible dinos in my display tank.
It's like a law of nature and it has been accepted in the natural science world.
It's just that reefers have not paid any attention to it and we have not been able to prove it as a cause for dinoflagellate blooms.

That's why I set out to do just that.
I removed around 95% of the sandbed and 40% of the live rocks to reduce surface area.
Then for weeks I blew the marine snow off the remaining rocks up to 10 times a day and siphoned the remaining sand every other day for weeks.
An XL filter sock would clog up every day and the amount that kept coming was unbelievable and it still is.
Now with nothing short of compulsive dedication and massive amounts of time spent the results are in.

Marine snow is essential to dinoflagelles. It is that simple.

No visible dinos in the display tank, but small patches in the sump since much of the marine snow does not skim well.
------

I urge you to prove me wrong, but I don't think that is going to happen so I'm suggesting a method to get you going in reproducing my results.
First I must mention that this would be considered drastic by most reefers and certain to change several things in your reef tank so use it a last resort and if you have little or nothing to lose. Fish will be fine, but corals and critters may get hit. I'm pretty sure there are side effect from this as well as from the dino toxins that are already in you tank.

Remove all corals. You can place them in your sump after your get it spotless.
Remove all sand. Yes that means all of it.

Set up a series of buckets with clean water from your tank and spin your rocks in there.
The first one is going to get dirty really fast so put it aside and let the dirt settle and reuse most of the water in another bucket.

You may now have ridden you tank of around 90% of the marine snow, but it may not be enough so you may need to do this several times.
I'd recommend at least twice a week for the rocks. Do use filter socks, loads of current and all the detritus reducing methods you can come up with. This is not an easy task so expect it to take a lot of work and weeks or months of time.

------

I call it marine snow, but since our tanks are really small compared to the ocean it's not the exact same thing.
It consists of many things, but the most noteworthy could be fecal pellets, bacteria and small lifeforms.

Even if you manage to rid your tank of dinos this way it's more than likely it will not be instantly ready for difficult corals.
We are just not there yet.


DNA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/30/2016, 02:21 PM   #4049
trmiv
Registered Member
 
trmiv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 3,189
I've been through an 8oz bottle of Vibrant at 2 doses a week and unfortunately it hasn't made much of a dent in my dinos. Not sure what method I'm going to try next, but I'm more likely to just break the entire tank down than battle these for any longer. Already been at it for 6 months, and I'm about done trying. Along with my snails and corals, they are killing any enjoyment I have for reefkeeping.


__________________
Current tank: 120g 30g sump, 2x250w Hamilton on Lumatek ballast with Hamilton Cayman Sun reflectors, Avast Marine Pegleg 180 skimmer, Gyre 150, Eheim 1262 return
trmiv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/30/2016, 03:41 PM   #4050
garygonzales
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: WEST ALLIS ,WI
Posts: 825
just do a longer black out...maybe 4 -5 days...that helped me when i was in same spot


garygonzales is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:47 PM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014