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Old 03/20/2017, 09:31 AM   #4126
karimwassef
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I still believe the answer is to grow algae and feed it with enoug phosphate and nitrates to grab hold.


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Old 03/20/2017, 10:51 AM   #4127
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Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
I still believe the answer is to grow algae and feed it with enoug phosphate and nitrates to grab hold.
This seemed to work for me. I had to dose po4 and no3 but once I got values up it seemed to be a turning point. Still takes a while. For me anyways... This tank is still up and running fairly smoothly now. No sign of Dino's and algae is under control..


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Old 03/20/2017, 12:55 PM   #4128
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At least some people have been successful. Sigh! Others lose their tanks.


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Old 03/20/2017, 02:12 PM   #4129
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I still believe the answer is to grow algae and feed it with enoug phosphate and nitrates to grab hold.
+1 With only 4 years in the hobby, my experience is limited but what I have found is that for me the addition of an algae turf scrubber has greatly improved the overall health of my tank and has also proved to be an effective tool at keeping nuisance algae at bay.

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Old 03/20/2017, 02:24 PM   #4130
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I see dinos as an evolutionary branch that's contrary to the way healthy reefs operate today with algae as the natural scrubbers of waste.

So.. a dino infested tank has basically been bombed into the "stone age" and need to go back and change direction from the ground up. It starts with welcoming and cultivating algae as the normal base of a healthy reef ecosystem...

The good news is that hair algae is actually a capable contender when it gets the right food. Maybe adding iron to bolster that ecological path win would accelerate things?

Once algae starts to take hold, it's a matter of time.


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Old 03/20/2017, 10:49 PM   #4131
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try ignoring the tank and letting algae take over. what do you have to lose? just continue dosing ca and alk and wait.
Thanks for your input - I will try to see how much I can get them to explode...its so painful to watch...I can already hardly see the rock as its covered with a mix of dinos and cyano...going to feed the tank while gritting my teeth!

Will keep the thread updated as the bloom occurs. Dosing aminos, phyto, or any essential elements also appears to be like wildfire as the next day the amount of dinos have doubled!


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Old 03/20/2017, 11:45 PM   #4132
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actually.. try this.. stop dosing aminos and phyto or any essential elements...

you're trying to grow a garden before introducing higher level life.

Feed like you're cycling the tank.. if you have fish, feed them. The only thing to maintain in addition to normal fish food is alk and calcium.


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Old 03/21/2017, 06:16 AM   #4133
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What karim says...

Green is the enemy of Brown*

*Now, it takes a long time, but it's the only equilibrium I know how to create that keeps dinos away.

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Old 03/21/2017, 09:28 AM   #4134
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I had to test daily and dose po4/no3 to get the algae started. Overfeeding by itself didn't do it for me. I was dumping an uncomfortable amount of food in the tank and it seemed to just fuel the Dino's, along with levels remaining undetectable. Each tank is different though, each with a missing Link causing a pro dino environment Imo.


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Old 03/21/2017, 10:17 AM   #4135
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I had to test daily and dose po4/no3 to get the algae started. Overfeeding by itself didn't do it for me. I was dumping an uncomfortable amount of food in the tank and it seemed to just fuel the Dino's, along with levels remaining undetectable. Each tank is different though, each with a missing Link causing a pro dino environment Imo.
Yep. Same. 3-5x as much food, dumped skimmate back in tank, added kno3 (+10ppm N) and high P miracle grow (+0.10 P) daily for weeks without signs of increasing nutrients.
Made me really question laws of conservation. I was exporting nothing, and could not figure where it was all going.


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Old 03/21/2017, 10:23 AM   #4136
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Good point. The infestation starts because of a unique chemical imbalance (usually driven by our own virulent attempts to eradicate algae ).

In my case, I use Lanthanum to eliminate phosphates. For others, it's overindulging carbon dosing eliminating nitrates... point is we went too far in our zealous endeavors and now we need to reset.

To right the ship, we need to know which chemical is missing that algae needs & feed it. I went so far as to consider adding Miracle Grow right down to looking at the toxicity of the metals in it. Maybe that's too much

Today, I'm proud of my massive waste collecting sediment filter and algae scrubber tank:

 photo 6A1D4A56-6D9C-4852-B0A4-E1EBD517E95C_zpsytpo6lwa.jpg

And I even keep track of my CO2 to make sure my precious green garden is satisfied without robbing carbonates from my SPS:

 photo 2E40D3F8-10A1-4E1F-8173-B99A4A5E1794_zpsiyjmrx3d.jpg

and just to stay in balance, I don't even throw my algae away! I feed it back to my DT fish:

 photo CABDC418-1517-4734-8E0E-922C04BBEA7B_zpsrmtsbddb.jpg

 photo IMG_7234_zpsime9xskt.jpg

Like the Irish guy on the Scott's commercial says: "Feed your lawn! FEED it!"


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Old 03/21/2017, 12:13 PM   #4137
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Some people believe that when you have a clean tank and rocks, any excess nutrients will get sucked into the rocks. That is if you don't have any other inorganic filtration. I think that might be what's going on. It would take a while for the rocks to reach saturated levels in order for them to leak back enough nutrients into the water to grow algae on the rocks.

What do you guys think? I just feel like there is no way dinos could be eating all these excess nutrients.

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Old 03/21/2017, 12:29 PM   #4138
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I think that's a myth. Rocks are sources of nutrients, not sinks. That's because diffusion inside rock (even porous rock) is so slow that it doesn't really matter. Now sand, on the other hand, has significant impact IMO.

The exception in rock would be if there is substantial surface growth like sponges, tunicates, worms, pods, starfish, etc... those could be absorbing waste and food if the rock is established. But new rock or land based rock wouldn't be much of a sink to nutrients. Much greater likelihood to leaching out instead.

The sand needs agitation to be healthy & that's usually best performed by worms (again IMO). If the sand bed fauna dies and the process of nutrient uptake diminishes, it could likewise become a source of waste. If that waste stays trapped very close to the sand surface, that zone may not be conducive to algal growth. Algae likes high flow high light.

Dinos, in contrast, don't need flow and can thrive at low light. So a dead sandbed could create a local food supply that feeds dinos before the nutrients can get up to the rocks where algae can prosper.

So I would add "flow" to the remedy above. Keep the nutrients suspended up where algae can have at it.


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Old 03/21/2017, 12:31 PM   #4139
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It's well known and studied how much carbon, phosphorous, etc are absorbed ("sink") by calcium carbonate rock or substrate. Not a myth.


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Old 03/21/2017, 12:34 PM   #4140
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For reference, my sediment filter is fed by a circulating flow from two Jebao 15000s. One in the aux sump puming up and one in the tank itself creating a massive loop. That means that I have nearly 6000 gal/hr in a circulating vortex in a 55gal tub that's 6" below 500W of a distributed LED plate. Algae (and unfortunately Xenia) love it.


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Old 03/21/2017, 12:37 PM   #4141
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It's well known and studied how much carbon, phosphorous, etc are absorbed ("sink") by calcium carbonate rock or substrate. Not a myth.
I wanted to believe that and I couldn't find the evidence for it. To be clear, I believed it for years before being challenged on a thread here. Try and find it... I couldn't substantiate it. Do a reefcentral search- maybe you'll be more successful than I was.


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Old 03/21/2017, 12:38 PM   #4142
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I wanted to believe that and I couldn't find the evidence for it. To be clear, I believed it for years before being challenged on a thread here. Try and find it... I couldn't substantiate it. Do a reefcentral search- maybe you'll be more successful than I was.
No need to search reefcentral. Chemistry of the Sea by Pilson.

It's an equilibrium thing. So, can't say it will or will not release or attract anything right away.


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Old 03/21/2017, 01:08 PM   #4143
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Is what i have dino? What can i do to treat it that will not hurt my BTAs? Thanks in Advance!


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Old 03/21/2017, 01:35 PM   #4144
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I sure if you were to ask Santa Monica he would have 5 or 6 scholarly articles on this subject.

But I think it's also proven with the scrubber only users out there. What happens is people don't change their CFL light bulbs every 3 months. Because it's still growing green and there is no algae in the tank everything seems fine. But really the scrubber is way under powered and some or most of the nutreints are being sucked into the rocks. It's not noticeable until it reaches saturation and dt algae blooms.

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Old 03/21/2017, 02:31 PM   #4145
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what is really difficult for me to understand is I am dumping quite a food in the tank, skimmer is off, and dinos are everywhere - yet my Chaeto starts turning white and dies on me....I use to double the size of cheato in a couple weeks no problem....how can I get the chaeto or other algae to grow? Should I cut my display lights down to a couple hours a day? I still have a few sps holding on, so don't want to get to crazy, but I want to give chaeto and other algaes a chance to compete....fuge is currently lit 24/7


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Old 03/21/2017, 02:48 PM   #4146
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Well it might be a situation similar to a scrubber that's not properly built. That is that it's not doing much filtering. I think the dinos, rock and sand are eating up the nutrients and your Chaeto is dying. It's being over powered by light compared to the amount of nutrients it's receiving.

Try to increace your flow around the chaeto. This will deliver more nutreints to it. Also turn down the number of hours the fuge light is on. This might help.

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Old 03/21/2017, 05:21 PM   #4147
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I agree that the dinoflagellates might be outcompeting the Chaetomorpha for nutrients. The dinoflagellates might be producing a toxin that affect the alga, as well. It's hard to be sure, but problems like that are common. You might consider trying fresh carbon to see whether that helps, but that often seems to be a losing battle.


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Old 03/21/2017, 05:53 PM   #4148
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if it's well known and studied, post the link or references. Diffusion is very slow and doesn't go very deep because the water doesn't go deep. There's no transport mechanism deeper than the surface few mms.

I make my own rocks. So, to promote diffusion through the rock and into a denitrification zone, I suggested a sponge center core within a thin rock shell... uncle objected to the fundamentals:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ight=diffusion


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Old 03/21/2017, 06:50 PM   #4149
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Mmm.... Had an idea for an experiment.
During phase when we are heavy feeding, it would be nice to know what dinos are actually good at uptaking and removing from our water.
Take a couple hundred mL or so of dinos + water. Microfilter out a few mL with no dinos, and N+P test the water. Then lyse or liquify the dino cells somehow (peroxide? FW? Freeze/thaw? boil?) and N+P test the dino soup. Or better yet, a side by side Triton test for water with dinos filtered out, vs dino soup water. Would love to know what elements (if any) dinos can actually deprive our tank of.

Tons of experiments on dino composition, but none under our tank conditions while dirty method.


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Old 03/21/2017, 07:33 PM   #4150
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Some people believe that when you have a clean tank and rocks, any excess nutrients will get sucked into the rocks.
I'm not sure what is meant here. It's not making any sense to me yet. I agree that diffusion won't do the job. Bulk flow will move water through the sand to some degree, but only phosphate will bind to the sand.


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