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Old 05/09/2017, 02:43 PM   #4351
taricha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bheron View Post
Finally, you said "I'm running healthy algae". Can you expand on what you mean by that? I'm in the process of adding more space to my system, specifically for refugium purposes.
Like Gordon Gekko almost said - "Green is Good." any fast growing macroalgae, turf or even GHA I'd consider a plus while fighting dinos.

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I was hoping to find a better way of dosing P and heard about the Seachem Flourish product. I'm thinking this is the route for my specific Dinos since the overfeeding seemed to control them before. I'm going to give this a try, along with stump remover, to keep N and P at optimum levels. N between 5 and 10 PPM and P you say between 0 and 0.1 PPM?
I dunno that there is an optimum level, certainly not one I can give you. But I'll talk about my tank and what I'd do. I'd aim for enough N (in simple form nitrate) & P to make sure any fast growing green algae has enough to not be limited, and that a change in the tank won't drop either super low.


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Old 05/09/2017, 09:41 PM   #4352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha View Post
Like Gordon Gekko almost said - "Green is Good." any fast growing macroalgae, turf or even GHA I'd consider a plus while fighting dinos.


I dunno that there is an optimum level, certainly not one I can give you. But I'll talk about my tank and what I'd do. I'd aim for enough N (in simple form nitrate) & P to make sure any fast growing green algae has enough to not be limited, and that a change in the tank won't drop either super low.
Ok thanks for this. Ok just purchased a 500ml bottle of Seachem Flourish Phosphorus. Crossing fingers!!


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Old 05/11/2017, 06:07 AM   #4353
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Earlier I said I'd post details on how macroalgae prefers simple forms of N, but dinos excel at uptaking complicated forms of N.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha
First, on the macroalgaes - yes. NH4, NO3, Aminos is the order of preference, and fast growing algae can really ramp up their NH4 uptake if the opportunity presents itself.
This paper: "Uptake of urea and amino acids by the macroalgae Ulva lactuca (Chlorophyta) and Gracilaria vermiculophylla (Rhodophyta)"
has some really interesting stuff. One takeaway is that Amino acids get uptaken faster (generally) if they have a smaller side-chain. (see fig 3)
The paper talks about the algae having to break down the amino for absorption to get the ammonia part it wants. makes sense.

That makes sense. The dino part is kinda mindblowing though.
From the "putting the N in dinos" paper
"Generally, when growing in presence of various different N compounds, dinoflagellates (as well as plants and algae) prefer to take up NH+4. However, there is a concentration threshold above which NH+4becomes toxic to the cells, and this threshold seems to be species-specific. For example, in A. minutum, NH+4 concentrations of 25 μM and higher lead to growth inhibition while for A. tamarense and Cochlodinium polykrikoides, this threshold was not observed until 50 μM"
That's like 0.5 ppm ammonia, weirdly low. anyway... on to good stuff.

"Another tendency in dinoflagellates is inhibition of NO−3 uptake when in the presence of NH+4. In A. minutum, this inhibition was found to be greater when the cells were in N-sufficient compared to N-deprived conditions. This suggests that when N is limiting, uptake of different forms will be favored over strict assimilation of NH+4 which has a reduced energy cost. Curiously, different blooming populations of dinoflagellates were found to have high uptake rates for urea and/or amino acids, and these rates were always higher than the rates for NO−3 uptake. In L. polyedrum, the urea uptake rate was also about 2 times more than that of NH+4, even if environmental urea concentrations were less than NH+4. Taken together, these observations suggest that dinoflagellates possess a full suite of transporters for inorganic N and organic N forms, that they have the biochemical means to assimilate these N forms, and that they show a great physiological plasticity in response to external N types and concentrations.

Dinos better at taking up big organic N forms than straight ammonia? Super weird.

So Algae preference: Ammonia, Nitrate, Aminos
Dino preference: Aminos, Ammonia (as long as it's tiny), Nitrate
So when elevating Nutrients, go for simple. Nitrate, avoid complex stuff like aminos. A.k.a. Dosing better than heavy feeding.


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Old 05/11/2017, 06:29 AM   #4354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taricha View Post
Earlier I said I'd post details on how macroalgae prefers simple forms of N, but dinos excel at uptaking complicated forms of N.....


So when elevating Nutrients, go for simple. Nitrate, avoid complex stuff like aminos. A.k.a. Dosing better than heavy feeding.


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Very interesting. Great stuff


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Old 05/11/2017, 08:38 AM   #4355
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Thanks Taricha. I consider myself a pretty smart person. but wow I have a hard time following all of that technical stuff! So Im very grateful for you taking the time to summarize and dumb it down to our level. Right now I have in my arsenal 1) stump remover (the pure stuff was too $$ for my size system) and 2) Seachem Phosphorus. I havent dosed the latter just yet. Today or tomorrow I will start taking daily tests and dosing both, recording what happens in my system. Dinos recede? Other things grow? Will take pics too.


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Old 05/12/2017, 03:23 PM   #4356
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4,000+ posts on this topic. Figure'd I'd chime in with my current experience.
Tank is ~15 months old. Been fighting dinos for ~1 month. Water changes, no water changes, chemiclean (mis-diagnosed as cyano). Nothing helped. While i run a calcium reactor, i also drip pickling lime. Last weekend, i dripped a bit too much pickling lime (forgot i left my valve open too much during topoff). By the time i realized it, my tank looked like a snow storm.
My pumps and powerheads did a good job of blowing the excess off my corals, but it seemed to stick to the dinos, which ~1 week later, are finally showing signs of receding (from sand bed and rocks).
Not sure i would recommend this, but looking positive for first time in awhile. Didnt lose any corals either. alk spiked to 10.4 (from 8.8) as a result.
Will post if anything changes.


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Old 05/12/2017, 08:23 PM   #4357
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A safer option is to use calcium carbonate powder. The particulate may bind to the dinos and be removed by the skimmer.


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Old 05/17/2017, 04:33 PM   #4358
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mine just came back in my tank, only on the overflow and backwalls


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Old 05/17/2017, 04:34 PM   #4359
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it got way worse after I went fallow. Only been 6 days and the dinos are getting stronger. Should I just dump a bunch of food in?


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Old 05/18/2017, 04:38 PM   #4360
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Reducing phosphates for cyano is ok, but for dinos it isn't. For dinos, you actually need phosphates.

My best solution to reduce N and P is an algae scrubber.
LOL things may be suddenly making since... so about a month ago I was having some GHA issues, so I decided to throw in a bag of chemipure phosphate removal in to my filter sock. Since then I have seen absolutely zero hair algae growth(nor cheatomorpha in my fuge), but in the last few days I am starting to see an increase in dino growth. I am thinking this because I have removing too much phosphates(they read 0) so now the dino is starting to strive. I am thinking when I change the filter sock tonight I will just leave out the bag and see if that improves. I now have a fox face in the main tank, so a little hair algae won't hurt anyways.

Anyone else agree this is probably what is sparking my dino outbreak?


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Old 05/19/2017, 11:12 AM   #4361
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Dino bloom was getting worse by the day. Ended up dosing 3.5g Metro in 300 gallon, followed up with bleach twice a day. Has been working out great.


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Old 05/22/2017, 09:00 PM   #4362
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I got Fed up once during a dino infestation went lights out for three days and dosed 2ml of peroxide daily during that time in my 14 gallon and that was my nuclear option and it worked,not saying to do this but I was losing everything anyway and was all set to reboot the tank but my drastic move seemed to fix it!


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Old 05/23/2017, 06:31 AM   #4363
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LOL things may be suddenly making since... so about a month ago I was having some GHA issues, so I decided to throw in a bag of chemipure phosphate removal in to my filter sock. Since then I have seen absolutely zero hair algae growth(nor cheatomorpha in my fuge), but in the last few days I am starting to see an increase in dino growth. I am thinking this because I have removing too much phosphates(they read 0) so now the dino is starting to strive. I am thinking when I change the filter sock tonight I will just leave out the bag and see if that improves. I now have a fox face in the main tank, so a little hair algae won't hurt anyways.

Anyone else agree this is probably what is sparking my dino outbreak?
It seems like removing the bag of chemipure is working. I still have some dino, but they are not getting worse.


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Old 05/29/2017, 11:20 PM   #4364
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I've been dealing with dinos for over a year....I tried most methods and nothing phased them. Suddenly, they are gone! I gave up trying stuff and just tried to ignore them. Due to neglect, other algae started to pop up. Dinos remained though, they grew on top of the algae I was growing all over the rock. So in attempt to kill off the "normal" algae I decided to start up some phosphate remover. I usually run GFO, but for some unknown reason I just decided to use up some phosguard I had. In the past GFO had no effect on my dinos - in fact usually a bloom happened after changing it, probably the iron I always assumed. Anyways, I added in some phosguard, which I never use, due to fear of aluminum leeching, but had some laying around, so what the heck.

Within 2-3 days I noticed a dramatic reduction in dinos. I decided to suck out what I could that remained into a thick filter sock and doubled the phosguard and changed it after 3 days. It has been a week now and dinos are "visibly" gone. I can't find a single dino strand.

I will report back if they remain at bay. A miracle folks, or perhaps just a dumb coincidence. I continue changing out my phosguard every 3-4 days...

Before everyone goes off and tries phosguard, give me to some time to report back. I still can't believe my eyes when looking at the tank.


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Old 05/30/2017, 01:34 AM   #4365
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maybe alumina kills dinos. In the early days of running my tank, I used phosguard too. This was before my eventful use of Lanthanum that precipitated the dinos.

I don't remember having dinos while I used phosguard but that's coincidence at this point.

We need other people to try it and see.

I can tell you that the alumina was the culprit in the death of almost all soft corals in my tank... zoas, xenia, gsp.. none survived until I removed it.

My sps was fine... I think I'll give phosguard another try since I'm trying to exterminate those nuisance softies again... hope the lps survive...


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Old 05/30/2017, 08:48 AM   #4366
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im dosing nitrates now and its keeping them at bay. Going to try dosing phosphates to see if I can finish them off.


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Old 06/23/2017, 03:58 PM   #4367
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Issues with my new 135g

Ok everyone. I am not new to reefing. I had a 180g a few years ago but had to tear down due to a divorce. Back in Novemebr of 2016 I decided to get back in with a 28g nano tank. Everything was great. A very healthy tank. Then I got a good deal on a 135g 4ft long tank. And so the build started for about 4 months. As I knew that I wanted to do it right and not skimp on anything. So after building my fish room in th ebasemant getting my new sump and all the needed supplies I started the tank up about 2 months ago. Left the lights off and allowed the tank to cycle. Once the tank was cycled (3weeks) I moved everything over to the new tank. Including my rock from the nano. ALl of the new rock was purchased from a reputable LFS and was all dry. SO moved the lights over and turned everything on and boom in 2 weeks i have an outbreak. I am not 100% sure it was dinos but looks very simialiar. The only thing that is not confimring to me that it is Dinos is that when I do siphon off the brown stuf it does leave an hair algea type plant attached to the rock and is of a light tan to light brown in color. It will only come off if I brush it off. But it does have a bubble that forms in it. I have had 3 shrimp and many snails perish along with a Lawnmower blenny and small blue eyed tang. I do have a Algae Turf Scubber on-line that was starting to go green algae the first couple of weeks but since has turned all completey brown. I do not know what my phospahte leve are at as I do not have a test kit for this. One thing that I do notice is that this stuff will not grow on the rock that was in the Nano tank as it is covered in coraline algae. I do very heavy water changes 30-60gallons a week. I have noticed that since I have put some GAC and chemipure in my filter socks it has slowed down. I will attach some pics if anyone can help Id this. I do not have a microscope though
I did purchase 2x BRS jumbo reactors today for GAC and GFO. And I also purchased every single Salifiert test kit as well.


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Old 06/23/2017, 04:15 PM   #4368
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Old 06/24/2017, 05:19 AM   #4369
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I have no idea whether the fluconazole affected my dinos, or if it was the UV sterilizer, or if it was swapping the carbon for high GFO. Just sharing my experience. I didn't take any pictures of the dino, but it was the stringy kind with bubbles in it (it looked like the picture below).



Fluco works by inhibiting sterol conversion, which may play a role in the structure of dino as well, or it could be a huge coincidence. I'm an N=1 here, not sure if anyone has been dealing simultaneously with bryo and dino, and did the fluco regimen.
It's been three months now, and my dino hasn't yet returned. UV+Fluco seemed to be quite the ticket.


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Old 06/24/2017, 10:10 AM   #4370
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Good stuff!
UV, many people have had success with vs dinos. Of species specifically tested, the common Large Cell Amphidinium is the only one we know uv doesn't work on.
Fluco is magic bullet vs bryopsis, but haven't seen much reported success vs dinos.


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Old 06/28/2017, 09:33 PM   #4371
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fwiw, I've been playing with an apex flow meter and UV to track any kind of changes that are typically reported. Its a 56w aqua ultraviolet. I've ran flow at 1000-1200gph, 800-1000gph, and 500-600gph.

I've noticed no difference to anything really. As if I never put it on. I did push up some feeding slightly and spurred some cyano/dino growth. Nothing major just wanted to see if I could at each level if flow and so far the UV has had no impact on the ability to cause the minor outbreak or speed up the removal of it. Both major types of dinos are alive and well in my system but still controllable through my normal routines.


I'm currently spurring it on and testing 400-500gph flow through the UV.

I took this picture a couple nights ago. Bottom left you can see a small amount of cyano. Like I said just pushing it enough to spur on a tiny amount.



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Old 07/18/2017, 06:15 PM   #4372
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FWIW, I have absolutely zero dino in my tank now after removing my phosphate remover.


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Old 07/18/2017, 09:50 PM   #4373
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what a weird affliction this is - a disease of the ultra-clean.


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Old 07/19/2017, 07:13 AM   #4374
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what a weird affliction this is - a disease of the ultra-clean.
Thanks for your input


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Old 07/19/2017, 09:30 AM   #4375
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FWIW, the UV has done nothing to the cyano, dino's, or ORP in my system in the 400-500gph range with a 56watt AquaUV unit.

Going to take it offline and see what pushing a lot of O3 through my system will do. Currently I have a small red sea ozone generator and can only go up to 50mg/hr and I run at minimum of that. So, I have a new generator coming in that can push 200mg/hr through my skimmer which has a flow rate of about 390-400gph and an air pull of about 30scfh.


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