Reef Central Online Community
Blue Zoo Aquatics

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > The Reef Chemistry Forum
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 08/22/2016, 08:32 AM   #601
nine9d
Registered Member
 
nine9d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Beacon, NY
Posts: 1,447
Can anyone point me to where the acid bath instructions are? I can't seem to find the thread in the search. Thank you.


__________________
- Ross

Current Tank Info: in limbo
nine9d is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08/22/2016, 05:43 PM   #602
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,535
If you are trying to remove phosphate, I would use this procedure:

1) Place the rock in a tub outside.
2) Put on chemical-resistant gloves and goggles.
3) Add 10 parts water to cover the rock.
4) Add 1 part muriatic acid. Be careful. The fumes are toxic.
5) Let the mixture sit for 20-30 minutes.
6) Neutralize any remaining acid with baking soda. The bubbling will stop when the acid is gone.
7) Dispose of the water, but check with your sewer district to see what they have to say.
8) Rinse the rock well. In most places, tap water is fine.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/23/2016, 08:00 AM   #603
nine9d
Registered Member
 
nine9d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Beacon, NY
Posts: 1,447
Thanks bud.

Is there any benefit to letting it sit for more then that time? Like as in days?

If I wanted to clean the dry rocks from algaes and such, would this also be the best method?


__________________
- Ross

Current Tank Info: in limbo
nine9d is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08/23/2016, 07:56 PM   #604
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,535
After some period of time, the acid will be neutralized, so letting it sit longer won't do anything. Also, long soaks might dissolve too much of the rock. The acid bath should remove algae and other organic debris well enough, but I haven't test it, personally.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/24/2016, 11:31 PM   #605
hitawaah
Registered Member
 
hitawaah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: cocoa beach florida
Posts: 67
bleaching & acid bath times and ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by nine9d View Post
Thanks bud.

Is there any benefit to letting it sit for more then that time? Like as in days?

If I wanted to clean the dry rocks from algaes and such, would this also be the best method?
I have Just finished the process of bleaching and then the acid bath. I did a little test just to see what difference leaving rock in the acid makes. I have about a hundred pounds of pukani dry live rock. The bleach really got most of the organics out of all the little crevices and off the rock. I used a gallon of bleach to 10 gallons of water for 24 hrs then rinsed with high power water flow to remove any hard to get little pieces. Next I set up 2 tubs for the acid bath same solution ratio as bleach using muratic acid 10:1. The acid bath helps get rid of calcium carbonates and phosphates which is what I really wanted(pukani has been known to leach phosphates really bad) I didn't want algae problems immediately or later. Most of my rock I let it set for about 30 minutes in the acid and was very happy with the results. The other tub I took about 10 pounds of rock three different pieces and let one set for 6 hours, another for 12 hours, and the last one almost a day. At 6 hours the piece wasn't to decayed but I could see it was smaller, at 12 hours it was quite visible that the rock was decaying pretty bad it was getting brittle. The last rock that had been in 24 hours was severely decayed with a lot of the rock missing and what was left was extremely brittle and easy to break. Pukani is very porous to begin with so I didn't want to lose a bunch of the rock I just wanted to remove the outer layer and phosphates. That's just my personal experiment. Every rock is composed differently so depending on what you have you might have to adjust your times or your ratios.


hitawaah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/25/2016, 01:33 PM   #606
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,535
Thanks for the data point. That sounds like what I'd expect if there's enough acid in the solution to dissolve a lot of rock.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/10/2016, 12:09 AM   #607
Wendell
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3
I gave the lye bath a try on some Pukani that was pretty covered in dead matter. My lye mix was pretty much what was previously recommended and the pH was 12.3 when the rock had been soaking for a day. After two days when I went to rinse it off I got some foam, soap bubble foam. Yes, it would appear that I made soap in my rocks. Two days outside with a protein skimmer in my trashcan of rock next to a fan blowing foam into the yard. High pH, Low pH, add ca+ add salt, change water, still trying to figure out how to rinse it all out.


Wendell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/10/2016, 07:10 PM   #608
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,535
Lye added to fat will create soap, so I'm not surprised that you saw some issues. I've done that experiment with olive oil. I would rinse the rock very well, and let the skimmer get out the soap, or maybe give it an acid bath, if that didn't work.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/11/2016, 12:19 AM   #609
hitawaah
Registered Member
 
hitawaah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: cocoa beach florida
Posts: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
Lye added to fat will create soap, so I'm not surprised that you saw some issues. I've done that experiment with olive oil. I would rinse the rock very well, and let the skimmer get out the soap, or maybe give it an acid bath, if that didn't work.
Absolutely correct, For hundreds of years( before the big manufacturers made soap in huge amounts to be sold at the store) Lye mixed with fat and say lavendar which gives it a good smell and grows wild was all that was used in the U.S. People made thier own soap for laundry so it isn't surprising at all that was the end result at all. I agree with bertoni your best course of action is to rinse and repeat many times if needed. I personally would only acid wash your rock(not sure what kind you have) as a last resort. IMO acid washing is about the nastiest and toughest thing you can do to your rock as anything I have ever seen. I speak from experience my pukani is still in a brute tub after an acid bath roughly six plus weeks ago leaching phosphates which I'm grabbing by using phosfree and a 10 micron filter sock with my pump directly blowing water through it. Just washed the socks yesterday to what I believe will be my final few weeks(my phosphates where .04 ppm) in the brute tub then I'm gotta let the rocks set out for another month or two. Rinse, Rinse, Rinse if you can. GL with your rocks!


hitawaah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/11/2016, 10:34 PM   #610
Wendell
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitawaah View Post
Absolutely correct, For hundreds of years( before the big manufacturers made soap in huge amounts to be sold at the store) Lye mixed with fat and say lavendar which gives it a good smell and grows wild was all that was used in the U.S. People made thier own soap for laundry so it isn't surprising at all that was the end result at all. I agree with bertoni your best course of action is to rinse and repeat many times if needed. I personally would only acid wash your rock(not sure what kind you have) as a last resort. IMO acid washing is about the nastiest and toughest thing you can do to your rock as anything I have ever seen. I speak from experience my pukani is still in a brute tub after an acid bath roughly six plus weeks ago leaching phosphates which I'm grabbing by using phosfree and a 10 micron filter sock with my pump directly blowing water through it. Just washed the socks yesterday to what I believe will be my final few weeks(my phosphates where .04 ppm) in the brute tub then I'm gotta let the rocks set out for another month or two. Rinse, Rinse, Rinse if you can. GL with your rocks!
Thanks, the foam went down after three days and some salt in the water. It has been running clean all day today. The rock was pukani and I did do an acid bath but I feel like it eats away too much rock so I will avoid it in the future. I used swimming pool phosphate remover liquid for 24 hours while I was waiting for the foam to clear away and my last phosphate test showed unreadable amounts. I will let it soak another day and check it again, but it would be nice to think the phosphate is behind me.


Wendell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/12/2016, 01:30 AM   #611
hitawaah
Registered Member
 
hitawaah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: cocoa beach florida
Posts: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
Lye added to fat will create soap, so I'm not surprised that you saw some issues. I've done that experiment with olive oil. I would rinse the rock very well, and let the skimmer get out the soap, or maybe give it an acid bath, if that didn't work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell View Post
Thanks, the foam went down after three days and some salt in the water. It has been running clean all day today. The rock was pukani and I did do an acid bath but I feel like it eats away too much rock so I will avoid it in the future. I used swimming pool phosphate remover liquid for 24 hours while I was waiting for the foam to clear away and my last phosphate test showed unreadable amounts. I will let it soak another day and check it again, but it would be nice to think the phosphate is behind me.

That will be an issue that is different for every person, like I said I'm still dosing phosfree and using 10 micron filter socks to catch any free phosphates that bind with the phosfree. My pukani was fresh never been cleaned until I bought it so I had to do all the work and hopefully it won't leach phosphates into DT causing major algae problems. Like I said though acid washing pukani you lose a lot of rock. GL


hitawaah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/30/2016, 05:19 AM   #612
kecked
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 44
Chemical cure

Doing pukani.

Using NaOH. To hydrolize organics
Using high heat around 150F
This simulates the safe conditions in a standard tissue digester
24 hr

Tap water rinse

Sodium percarbonate soak 24 hr just to whiten then rock

Tap water rinse

Oxalic acid to remove some rust stains 24 hours room temp

Tap water rinse

Muriatic acid wash for 1 hour to remove phosphate and other metals

Rinse in di water
Rinse inlanthanium chloride solution

Into tank to cycle with tank water

That's where I am now.


kecked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11/30/2016, 05:21 AM   #613
kecked
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 44
You know I'd pay brs to precook and oxidize this stuff


kecked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/01/2017, 01:04 PM   #614
gguertin
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 759
Dumb question... I bought bleach from Wally World it looks like a no name brand but is concentrated... I didn't see gallon jugs that were not concentrated how do I determine the amount to use?


gguertin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/01/2017, 04:03 PM   #615
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,535
It's close enough to Chlorox that the same rates would be fine, unless it's marked as "concentrated". I'd try something like cup per gallon to make a disinfecting solution. Be careful about breathing bleach fumes, particularly if you have asthma or some other pulmonary issue. Good ventilation could prevent health problems.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/01/2017, 04:14 PM   #616
gguertin
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 759
It does say concentrated but I don't see a percentage or amount.

I just don't want to overdue it. I'm going to run the rock in a bucket with a algae scrubber after.


gguertin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10/01/2017, 05:08 PM   #617
bertoni
RC Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mountain View, CA, USA
Posts: 85,535
There won't be any harm in extra bleach as long as everyone stays away from the fumes. I think the "concentrated bleaches" are something like twice the strength of regular bleach, so maybe ⅛ cup per gallon should be fine.


__________________
Jonathan Bertoni
bertoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:28 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014