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Old 10/06/2017, 11:32 AM   #1
allendehl
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Off to a rough start ---2nd casualty in TTM

Hi there guys,

Some of you was and helped out in a previous post where an ammonia spike allegedly killed one of my chromis after 24 hrs in TTM.

Immediately after that episode (yesterday morning), I did a full transfer to another bucket, dosed prime off the get go (half cap) and installed an ammonia badge. Came back from work to a happy extended family of 2 clowns and 3 chromis. Wet ahead and siphoned the excess of food I could and replenished the water with new.
This morning, all good!!...Dosed prime again along with a Prazi, half a cap and some pellets.

Now, about 4-5 hrs later one of the 3 chromis showed up dead at the bottom of the aquarium. The ammonia badge is still in the "safe" zone.

I have no idea what is causing these deaths. Can anyone help?...Should I do something with the other fish now that a buddy passed in the same TM tank?

Size of the tanks is 7 gallons. Current population down to 2 Clowns and 2 Chromis.

Any help is appreciated.


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Old 10/06/2017, 11:34 AM   #2
allendehl
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Here is a link to a 1min video I took of the tank so you can see the fishes. I don't see anything abnormal but I may not even know what to look for.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2AGsoEaU3yuhW24g1


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Old 10/06/2017, 11:37 AM   #3
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Any red marks on the chromis that passed?


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Old 10/06/2017, 11:40 AM   #4
nereefpat
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The surface looks awfully still. Are you using an airstone or powerhead for aeration?


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Old 10/06/2017, 11:43 AM   #5
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When I read your post, the first thing that I thought of was how often I read Snorvich's posts about chromis being susceptible to uronema marinum. He consistently stated that he would stay away from chromis for that reason.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...e#post24131340

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007...re1#section-16


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Old 10/06/2017, 11:55 AM   #6
allendehl
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Ok, I'm not sure whether this is right or not but it sure is creepy. Here is a pic of the corpse. I will probably help.





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Old 10/06/2017, 11:57 AM   #7
allendehl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nereefpat View Post
The surface looks awfully still. Are you using an airstone or powerhead for aeration?
I am taking them through TTM. I don't believe one is needed since the frequent transfers. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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Old 10/06/2017, 12:00 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allendehl View Post
I am taking them through TTM. I don't believe one is needed since the frequent transfers. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You do need one.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388428

Tank Transfer Method (often referred to in the forums as ‘TTM’) is a method for prophylactic treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans, (referred herein as just ‘Ich’) that is common to marine fish when held in captivity and is different than the freshwater equivalent Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. The method entails transferring a fish from one tank to another multiple times until the parasite eliminates itself because of the nature of the life cycle. When administered correctly, TTM is highly effective at eliminating Ich from the fish.

The following are the most important points for administering TTM properly:
+ Transfers need to occur every 72 hours OR less, never more
+ The total number of days for all transfer cycles is 12 or more.
+ A minimum of four transfers is required, with more required if doing transfers more frequently than every 72 hours
+ Time of day of transfers does not matter, provided no more than 72 hours elapse between transfers (ignore what you think you know or have heard about mornings being required)
+ Between transfers, the tank and equipment should be cleaned (with bleach or vinegar and water) and allowed to completely dry AND stay completely dry for 24 hours OR longer
+ The day you purchase your fish counts as a full Day in the 12-day counter, as long as you do not allow 72 hours to pass before your first transfer
+ You will need two or more of all your equipment, recommended:
* Tank or bucket/bin of an appropriate size
*Heater, plus thermometer (yes, even that you need two of)
* Hiding places (simply PVC elbows work great and they do not roll)
* Air tube & Air stone – should be thrown out after each use/transfer
* Tank cover (to prevent jumping)
*A square colander is recommended

+ Powerheads and HOB filters can be used, but may complicate the disinfection process due to the risk of incomplete drying. If powerheads/HOB filters are to be used, a thorough (24-hour) soak in bleach solution is recommended. Many people use an ammonia nullifier such as Prime (added on day 2 of each cycle) and do not bother with any type of filtration.
+ It is recommended you transfer your fish using a colander, however by hand or by net is OK with some considerations
+ As little water as possible should be transferred with the fish
+ Using Display Tank water instead of newly mixed water is OK if your Display Tank is guaranteed to be disease free
+ For best practice, you should keep your fish quarantined in an observation tank for at least 4 weeks after TTM completes, the longer the better; this will allow any other parasite masked by a low level of copper in the fish source to exhibit symptoms.
+ You can dose PraziPro for Flukes along with TTM or after
+ It is not advised to couple TTM with other treatment methods involving chemicals except Prazipro
+ Do not put your TTM tanks within 10 feet of your Display Tank due to the risk of disease transmission via aerosol contamination. Preferably, keep your QT/TTM tanks in a separate room or location.
+ TTM only works on fish, since the parasite’s life cycle requires a fish host,
+ TTM does NOT work on anything else, such as hermits, snails, live rock, macro algae, ANYTHING WET!)
+ TTM only works with cryptocaryon irritans (ich) and not with any other parasite

Overview of Tank Transfer Method (Authored by Spar, snorvich, dmorty, humblefish, newsmyrna80, Deinonych)


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Old 10/06/2017, 12:07 PM   #9
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Yeah definitely some kind of aeration, a simple air stone will work this keeps the water oxygenated and allows for gas exchange even though you're changing tanks every couple of days it's still important


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Old 10/06/2017, 12:14 PM   #10
allendehl
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Ok...I'll setup for that asap. Now, would this be the issue? Full transfer was done a bit over 24 hrs ago and about 12hrs go I replaced probably 1/3 of the water after siphoning out some.


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Old 10/06/2017, 12:16 PM   #11
allendehl
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also...where can I get several air stones locally quick?


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Old 10/06/2017, 12:32 PM   #12
tjm9331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allendehl View Post
also...where can I get several air stones locally quick?
petco, petsmart, walmart


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Old 10/06/2017, 12:41 PM   #13
allendehl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch08 View Post
You do need one.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388428

Tank Transfer Method (often referred to in the forums as ‘TTM’) is a method for prophylactic treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans, (referred herein as just ‘Ich’) that is common to marine fish when held in captivity and is different than the freshwater equivalent Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. The method entails transferring a fish from one tank to another multiple times until the parasite eliminates itself because of the nature of the life cycle. When administered correctly, TTM is highly effective at eliminating Ich from the fish.

The following are the most important points for administering TTM properly:
+ Transfers need to occur every 72 hours OR less, never more
+ The total number of days for all transfer cycles is 12 or more.
+ A minimum of four transfers is required, with more required if doing transfers more frequently than every 72 hours
+ Time of day of transfers does not matter, provided no more than 72 hours elapse between transfers (ignore what you think you know or have heard about mornings being required)
+ Between transfers, the tank and equipment should be cleaned (with bleach or vinegar and water) and allowed to completely dry AND stay completely dry for 24 hours OR longer
+ The day you purchase your fish counts as a full Day in the 12-day counter, as long as you do not allow 72 hours to pass before your first transfer
+ You will need two or more of all your equipment, recommended:
* Tank or bucket/bin of an appropriate size
*Heater, plus thermometer (yes, even that you need two of)
* Hiding places (simply PVC elbows work great and they do not roll)
* Air tube & Air stone – should be thrown out after each use/transfer
* Tank cover (to prevent jumping)
*A square colander is recommended

+ Powerheads and HOB filters can be used, but may complicate the disinfection process due to the risk of incomplete drying. If powerheads/HOB filters are to be used, a thorough (24-hour) soak in bleach solution is recommended. Many people use an ammonia nullifier such as Prime (added on day 2 of each cycle) and do not bother with any type of filtration.
+ It is recommended you transfer your fish using a colander, however by hand or by net is OK with some considerations
+ As little water as possible should be transferred with the fish
+ Using Display Tank water instead of newly mixed water is OK if your Display Tank is guaranteed to be disease free
+ For best practice, you should keep your fish quarantined in an observation tank for at least 4 weeks after TTM completes, the longer the better; this will allow any other parasite masked by a low level of copper in the fish source to exhibit symptoms.
+ You can dose PraziPro for Flukes along with TTM or after
+ It is not advised to couple TTM with other treatment methods involving chemicals except Prazipro
+ Do not put your TTM tanks within 10 feet of your Display Tank due to the risk of disease transmission via aerosol contamination. Preferably, keep your QT/TTM tanks in a separate room or location.
+ TTM only works on fish, since the parasite’s life cycle requires a fish host,
+ TTM does NOT work on anything else, such as hermits, snails, live rock, macro algae, ANYTHING WET!)
+ TTM only works with cryptocaryon irritans (ich) and not with any other parasite

Overview of Tank Transfer Method (Authored by Spar, snorvich, dmorty, humblefish, newsmyrna80, Deinonych)
If I didn't read this post 10 times I didn't read it one. I could promise I read that the air tube and stone were optional.

I feel very stupid now.


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Old 10/06/2017, 01:49 PM   #14
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Without the airstone agitating the water you are suffocating them. No air.


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Old 10/06/2017, 02:10 PM   #15
nereefpat
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No, don't feel stupid. Hopefully the airstone fixes the problem.


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Old 10/06/2017, 03:02 PM   #16
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My apologies, as it wasn't my intention to make you feel that way. My thought was to give you the full list and to show you that people smarter than I compiled it.

However, been there done that. I can thoroughly plan something for my tank, make a list and then miss a step.

My last big one was was adding Alk rather than Mg. I needed to add like 24 ounces of Mg, but grabbed the Alk container instead.... Fortunately, my Apex alarm went off.


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Old 10/06/2017, 04:24 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by allendehl View Post
Now, would this be the issue?
Maybe.. maybe not.. no one will know for sure..
adapt/adjust and move forward..

tanks that loose power during storms,etc... can have serious issues/death in only a few hours..
Always good to have one of those battery powered air stones on hand just in case. (or a generator)


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Old 10/06/2017, 04:47 PM   #18
allendehl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch08 View Post
My apologies, as it wasn't my intention to make you feel that way. My thought was to give you the full list and to show you that people smarter than I compiled it.

However, been there done that. I can thoroughly plan something for my tank, make a list and then miss a step.

My last big one was was adding Alk rather than Mg. I needed to add like 24 ounces of Mg, but grabbed the Alk container instead.... Fortunately, my Apex alarm went off.
No need to apologize!! On the contrary, if you didn't point that out I'd never realized I totally misread the same sticky post about 10 times. Unbelievable.

Now, air stone is in, air pump and enough air hose and spare air stones to dump after each transfer.

Thing is, the boys seem to be afraid of it!! I put it in one of the corners of the bucket, at the bottom of it and the fish are in the totally opposite corner and wont move from there. The pump is a small 20-60g Aquaculture pump. Even when rated for more it is not blowing away the tank or anything.


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Old 10/06/2017, 05:13 PM   #19
allendehl
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Update: Clowns are already by the air stone. Chromis nowhere to be seen..seems clown are braver.


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Old 10/07/2017, 08:29 PM   #20
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Any ideas of why are my clowns swimming sideways at the surface and kind of grasping for air out of the water (or at least it looks like) ? Is this normal?

Just completed a transfer about 2hrs ago. Air stone is in.

Look:


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