LED idiot: help me out

[Bronx19]

There is no reason to go from a little halide to a LED setup, you're just spending the power savings on the fixture.

[oreo57]

Originally Posted by stancfii

A Phoenix 14k is $35 and will grow beautiful coral like crazy. How many years can you run your halide on $35 bulbs compared to the cost of new fixtures?

Well, currently no "proof" they have a fixture for a bulb....
Possible though. but you would need to add at least $100 if not and more than likely more..

http://www.addictiveaquaculture.com/...150w-400w.html

If one needs to start from scratch.. see no reason not to consider a Radion...........200% to 25% more..

[zooman72]

Originally Posted by stancfii

I’ve been where you are. If you are dead set on LEDs, go the marsaqua 300 route and swap some of the leds for 420nm like I said in my previous post. SBreeflights has awesome fixtures I you aren’t interested in doing DIY LED swapping. A Phoenix 14k is $35 and will grow beautiful coral like crazy. How many years can you run your halide on $35 bulbs compared to the cost of new fixtures? That’s efficiency in my book. A 150w halide will use the same amount of electricity as 1 of the black box fixtures.

Originally Posted by Bronx19

There is no reason to go from a little halide to a LED setup, you're just spending the power savings on the fixture.

[zooman72]

Originally Posted by oreo57

LED strength is in color tailoring, targeting and control.

Originally Posted by Bronx19

There is no reason to go from a little halide to a LED setup, you're just spending the power savings on the fixture.

[zooman72]

Originally Posted by oreo57

Well first off you can get energy efficiency in almost any current premium LED fixture.
This comes in 2 places.
1)watt efficiency. MH are on the order of 100Lumens/watt.
current LED's are approaching 200Lumens/watt
now a visible metric but used to show a concept

2)Directionality.. no matter how you look at it MH/T5's are 360 degree emitters. LED start at about 120 degree and are collimated to 90-60 degrees.
That alone makes them more "efficient" light sources.
Regardless of reflector efficiency there will always be losses bouncing back/forth absorption.

Whether it pays off the increased investment costs is another story.

LED strength is in color tailoring, targeting and control.
A 30W LED (currently) will never produce the same amount of photons over a 150W MH.
'Best" estimate is to use a factor of 2 or less.. watt wise..
75W LED = 150W MH.
BROAD assumption but one needs a starting point..

In a sense LEd's are not any limiting factor (in output or cost really) but current designs are..

for a 40B I'd recommend any "panel" light (like the Orphek Atlantic) over pucks.
As to pucks.. you are forgetting Aquaticlife Halos.. Kind of a compromise between Radion density and Kessil density..

2 Radion xr15 gen4 are big $'s 190W exceeding (theoretically and practically)the output of 400W Mh

Pucks can be moved even tilted to cut down on shadowing (shadows are just basic geometry) ect.

One puck will generally be enough for a 40b w/ some caveats..
w/ diffuser and proper height it will meet or exceed a 150W MH.

Others will chime in if I'm way off base here but see little in the way of gross errors..

Constructive, well-written response - even if I may not agree with everything in it, it is certainly an aid to further consideration for the OP...

[HBtank]

Withstanding the high end LED fixtures generally placed more aggressively than the manufacture's recommendation (there are examples of great LED only tanks), which is not within a $500 budget, I think cheaper LED solutions are best supplemented with T5s right now, to help with coverage and the "disco ball effect".

I would probably go for something like 2 AI Primes and 2 sun blasters (or other single T5 fixtures) to supplement. That would be ~500. Mounting options is what would steer the final choice. That should be efficient, solid for SPS, reduce the disco effect, and get you cool extras like easy control (even if it is not a priority). Plus it would bridge the gap a bit from technologies.

If I got a single unit, I would get the Photon V2. I think it is simply the best bang for the buck.

[Bronx19]

I knew I'd stir the natives up. Good stuff.

Buy that shiny LED that does what you already have. I anticipate a second thread, 'what spectrum/intensity/height'.

[oreo57]

Gee .. didn't know halides can ramp from 0 to 100% and change spectrums on the fly..
all w/ 1/2 of the system heat and no added IR heating..

[HBtank]

Originally Posted by Bronx19

I knew I'd stir the natives up. Good stuff.

Buy that shiny LED that does what you already have. I anticipate a second thread, 'what spectrum/intensity/height'.

I simply have had to replace my lighting due to wear/tear, saltwater and time is a tough foe.

People do not need to give long explanations on why they decided to buy something in order to get some approval that they are not being wasteful....

[Bronx19]

Originally Posted by oreo57

Gee .. didn't know halides can ramp from 0 to 100% and change spectrums on the fly..
all w/ 1/2 of the system heat and no added IR heating..

No need to change spectrums when you're running a Radium/Pheonix. Its what LED tried to replicate after all.

But we digress, spend your money how you like.

[oreo57]

Well to get back on track a bit..

but like I said primary importance is light blending, reliability and ability to grow corals.

I have no problems w/ them picking MH.. May be the best option..
My post #24 made that kind of clear as to "tradeoffs".. just wasn't trying to be snarky about it..

People generally make their own decisions.. and hopefully base it on reality not peer pressure ....

for fun:
People can't always choose between the 2..

Radium is supposed to slightly lower output PAR wise than the Phoenix, but the Phoenix is a bit of a PAR monster anyway. Color is different. I have been tempted to try one also. Love the Phoenix, but always wonder if the grass is greener, so to speak.

Each look is different..
Besides it's NEVER that straight forward even w/ MH............
which bulb
Which ballast
Which reflector
What wattage

https://premiumaquatics.com/articles/radium

[NS Mike D]

LEDs struggle to blend light the way t5s and MH can. The disco ball effect is just one issue (no one for sure knows if the varying wavelengths is good or bad for corals).

The other is that leds shine straight down concentrating both par and wavelengths. This can be mitigated with running more led clusters with lenses and diffusers. However (see BRS video on Phillips leds) when these are employed to closely mimic the spread and coverage of t5, the cost savings of running leds is lost. I am skeptical that LEDS provide cost savings to this time (of course, if your tank flourishes without an even spread of light that you get with t5s and MHs, then there should be long term cost savings).

one more thing, there is no such things as white leds, the are actually blue leds treated to mimic white. the trend has been to use less white leds and create a visual white blending RGBs.

What we see and what corals use are two different things.


All this said, there are lots of great looking tanks running on leds.


look for leds with diffusers that can spread the light more evenly and use lots of RGBs to create white light (ie less white leds) .

My guess is until there is another break through in LED efficiency, the smart reefers with demanding sps will gravitate to hybrid lighting with t5s doing the bulk of the work load, MH providing peak broad spectrum and LEDs providing the custom accents that the other two can't and variation of that.

anyway, that's my two cents where I am with lighting today.

[oreo57]

Output efficiency is hitting 200L/watt 2x the efficiency of any other tech atm but plasma..

"Ideally" and in a perfect world you would use violet pump emitters w/ RGB phosphors..
Just like tubes and MH...
unfortunately both costs and efficiency of violet based LEd's is not up to the 200L/w...
(Using it because it is the only "industrial" metric to use..)

Hybrids will still be popular due to the geometry of the LED's though I believe this is temporary..

Matter of fact it is really only necessary due to the popularity of puck style panels..
Most panel styles can relatively easily eliminate a lot of the need..
https://youtu.be/-TvQQYAkSOo

[ReefkeeperZ]

Originally Posted by zooman72

I probably should have been more "tactful", but I continue to be amazed that so many here on RC automatically default to the standard debate item of "which is better?", followed by advising one to forget LED and go with MH/T5. It wasn't necessarily egregious here, and I apologize for "mucking up" the thread.
.

I didn't feel you were tactless, at all.

I was simply reminding everyone that this is simply about LEDS I have several lighting options I could do I have an Icecap660-009 ballast I could run t-5 on, I have 2x250mh (which would be a little over kill on this tank) I also have powercompacts, and single 150w halide pendant, i'm simply trying to figure out if LED currently come in something suitable to my desires in my price range. or which would come the closest.

[zooman72]

Originally Posted by Bronx19

I knew I'd stir the natives up. Good stuff.

Buy that shiny LED that does what you already have. I anticipate a second thread, 'what spectrum/intensity/height'.

Well, thanks for proving my point, and for being so helpful...

[zooman72]

Originally Posted by NS Mike D

LEDs struggle to blend light the way t5s and MH can. The disco ball effect is just one issue (no one for sure knows if the varying wavelengths is good or bad for corals).

The other is that leds shine straight down concentrating both par and wavelengths. This can be mitigated with running more led clusters with lenses and diffusers. However (see BRS video on Phillips leds) when these are employed to closely mimic the spread and coverage of t5, the cost savings of running leds is lost. I am skeptical that LEDS provide cost savings to this time (of course, if your tank flourishes without an even spread of light that you get with t5s and MHs, then there should be long term cost savings).

one more thing, there is no such things as white leds, the are actually blue leds treated to mimic white. the trend has been to use less white leds and create a visual white blending RGBs.

What we see and what corals use are two different things.


All this said, there are lots of great looking tanks running on leds.


look for leds with diffusers that can spread the light more evenly and use lots of RGBs to create white light (ie less white leds) .

My guess is until there is another break through in LED efficiency, the smart reefers with demanding sps will gravitate to hybrid lighting with t5s doing the bulk of the work load, MH providing peak broad spectrum and LEDs providing the custom accents that the other two can't and variation of that.

anyway, that's my two cents where I am with lighting today.

1. Kessils are the one example of a diode cluster under one optic lens that has zero issue with color blending - other issues may exist for this format, but color blending is not one of them. Other fixtures also can blend color quite well using a variety of options (reflectors, diffusers), and increasing height above the aquarium can also greatly mitigate color banding from individual diodes.

2. It depends greatly on the diode optics and any secondary optics involved - most plain diodes usually have a 120-180 degree emission.

3. The debate (why are we having one again here?) is not always about efficiency - see earlier comment about flexibility of control and color.

4. I have not seen any "trend" towards less white diodes - some manufacturers have used RGB clusters as a replacement (PacSun), but most still use some combination of actual white diodes. I personally have found that high-CRI "cool" and "warm" whites combined provide brightness to the viewer and warmth to the overall color rendition.

[zooman72]

Originally Posted by ReefkeeperZ

I didn't feel you were tactless, at all.

I was simply reminding everyone that this is simply about LEDS I have several lighting options I could do I have an Icecap660-009 ballast I could run t-5 on, I have 2x250mh (which would be a little over kill on this tank) I also have powercompacts, and single 150w halide pendant, i'm simply trying to figure out if LED currently come in something suitable to my desires in my price range. or which would come the closest.

Thanks, and I too was trying to keep it to your LED options. I am 45, and have been keeping aquariums since I was 8, marine "reefs" since college. I have used MH, T5 and numerous LED fixtures over a variety of aquariums for some time. I exclusively use LED now simply because I have multiple aquariums and hated shelling out several hundred dollars each spring (i.e. tax return season) for new T5 bulbs. I then grew to appreciate the control and color adjustment provided, as well as the smaller form factor (i.e. size of the fixture) over the aquarium. Current fixtures are so much better than the earliest examples, and I am sure you could employ any of several options and be successful.

It has been proven that one can grow SPS corals well under LEDs, and I hope you can find what will work for you. My earlier recommendations still stand, but good luck with whatever you employ...

[NS Mike D]

let me clarify, firstly I wasn't seeking to go down a debate over which lights are better, all three will can grow beautiful corals. The things I posted were to help the OP understand what to look for in comparing options. If LEDS are seeking to mimic what made T5s and MH successful, it's important to understand how they do that in comparing within the LEDs world (not just saying these lights great, but rather why). Also, hybrid lighting tends to get overlooked, but, IMO, there are enough folks knowing what they are doing using some of hybrid lighting to be worth understanding why.

As for the trend in white leds, you see it when comparing older versions of high end leds, many are usoing less white leds in their newer versions. There is a high end European company that has dropped the white leds altogether in their top of the line ficture. This is important should the op consider second hand leds where the traditional data posted on the fact sheets won't tell the full story. However if you look at the led mix, it's clear that many high end makers are using less white leds in their clusters than their earlier versions.


as for efficiency, my only point was that as high end led makers are achieving much better blending of light, it comes as a cost, and from what I can tell, they end up consuming the same energy in total and that negates that advantage. That shouldn't take away that they are superior in customizing and dialing in light.


Don't get me wrong, I am not a LED hater and in fact they are all I use.

[stancfii]

Originally Posted by ReefkeeperZ

I didn't feel you were tactless, at all.

I was simply reminding everyone that this is simply about LEDS I have several lighting options I could do I have an Icecap660-009 ballast I could run t-5 on, I have 2x250mh (which would be a little over kill on this tank) I also have powercompacts, and single 150w halide pendant, i'm simply trying to figure out if LED currently come in something suitable to my desires in my price range. or which would come the closest.

If you do go all leds, let me know if you want to sell your icecap 660. I just put a pair of VHO bulbs over my tank to go with my Radiums and haven’t been this happy with my lighting in 10 years (the last setup I was using VHO on ).

[ReefkeeperZ]

I loved my vho's, Used to run 440w vho on a mixed reef then went 2x250halide and put 110w vho on front and back, best growth I ever had.

[HBtank]

My Icecap 660 and 440 (6 bulb) setup was wicked, back when people questioned T5s as a sole lighting source... HA! The growth and colors were phenomenal with it. But it aged poorly on my tank (reflectors, wiring, snugness of end-caps, etc..) and I think there are better solutions now when combining technologies.

[ReefkeeperZ]

OK just in case you were curious I decided on 2 kessil 160 and an a series controller, slightly over the 500$ budget but I'll live.

Now to tell the wife I blew the money on strippers and booze.

[zooman72]

Originally Posted by ReefkeeperZ

OK just in case you were curious I decided on 2 kessil 160 and an a series controller, slightly over the 500$ budget but I'll live.

Now to tell the wife I blew the money on strippers and booze.

Good luck with the lights, but you might want to come up with a better excuse...

[ReefkeeperZ]

damnit I didnt order the cord to connect the two lights in synch... anyone happen to know if the units come with the wires to attach to the controller? or if the controller comes with a wire for each port? for both setting sides?

[ReefkeeperZ]

never mind answered my own question by looking on amazon again, I'll have to order another wire and the $ goes up lol!