Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > More Forums > RC Archives > Protein Skimming & Filtration
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

 
Thread Tools
Old 09/21/2000, 07:44 AM   #1
Flame*Angel
Premium Member
 
Flame*Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,035
I'm setting up a 120g. I've been reading "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" by Robert Fenner and he recommends the use of an ozonizer. Just wondering if many people use them and if you would recommend them. What's a good brand?

------------------
Learning about this hobby is a hobby in itself!


Flame*Angel is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 08:10 AM   #2
Steve Richardson
Premium Member
 
Steve Richardson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: MA, USA
Posts: 1,722
Nope. I dont.

Dont really see any need to.

-Steve




Steve Richardson is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 08:22 AM   #3
KASESQ
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Corona, CA -USA
Posts: 715
I need to, in that I am fighting yellowing all the time and carbon is expensive whereas ozone, beyond the initial cost of the generator and a very small amount of electricity, is free. If you have or intend to have lots of algae growth you will have yellowing and I recommend a small ozone generator hooked up to your skimmer over carbon for the above reason.


KASESQ is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 08:27 AM   #4
Steve Richardson
Premium Member
 
Steve Richardson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: MA, USA
Posts: 1,722
Hi KAS!

Ozone for yellowing?

-S


Steve Richardson is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 08:31 AM   #5
KASESQ
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Corona, CA -USA
Posts: 715
Yep-and it works immediately;my corals all look much happier with the "blue" water. My fish don't seem to care one way or the other. Julian warns agains using ozone in that he correctly states that it will oxidize some useful nutrients...but I, like you, believe in LARGE waterchanges, so I feel that I am replenishing stuff like bromide etc. The public aquarium in Australia that has the gigantic ATS units made the switch to ozone to cure a chronic yellowing problem in their coral tank (more like an inland sea) and now the water there is "blue" but I haven't heard how their corals are doing. fwiw, Kurt.


KASESQ is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 08:32 AM   #6
Flame*Angel
Premium Member
 
Flame*Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,035
I'm planning on including a refugium in the setup so I guess I will have lots of macro algae. If I do go with an ozonizer would I be able to skip the carbon?

------------------
Learning about this hobby is a hobby in itself!


Flame*Angel is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 08:38 AM   #7
KASESQ
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Corona, CA -USA
Posts: 715
Depending on how your skimmer is built I would put a small bag of carbon over the exhaust (where the skimmed water comes out) to remove excess ozone...but this carbon does not have to be changed more than once every few months to achieve this objective.


KASESQ is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 08:39 AM   #8
Staceon
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,662
Am I wrong to think ozone if it leaks could cause some long term problems? Especially to vulnerable oxidizing areas like lungs?

I have always heard of them, but what do they actually look like?


Staceon is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 11:20 AM   #9
KASESQ
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Corona, CA -USA
Posts: 715
If you can detect a "fresh" smell in the area around the tank you either have an ozone leak in one of the lines or excess ozone is escaping your carbon postfilter. My Sanders units look like a large airpump. I have been using ozone for years and havent developed any health problems. It does tend to rot any plastic or rubber parts of your skimmer and lines need to be changed periodically. Interestingly, fire damage contractors use really large units to eliminate the smell of smoke from a burned building. fwiw, Kurt.


KASESQ is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 12:51 PM   #10
Flame*Angel
Premium Member
 
Flame*Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,035
In Fenners' book he guarantees that there is no risk of harmful ozone from an ozonizer designed for the hobby. The only downside he mentions is increased corrosion of rubber or silicone-tubing materials. The benifts listed:

- aids in "burning up" organica snd disease-causing microbes

- raises pH

- boosts dissolved oxygen and redox

- maximizes efficiency of your protien skimmer

- raises ORP

- quick chemical degradation of large organic molecules that are responsible for off-color, turbidity, low oxygen and some tixicities

He recommneds an ozonizer before investing in meters, dosers, denitrators or UV sterilizers. I think I'll add one to my equipment list

------------------
Learning about this hobby is a hobby in itself!


Flame*Angel is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 12:59 PM   #11
KASESQ
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Corona, CA -USA
Posts: 715
I heartily recommend the Sanders units, and if you don't use a dryer column (I don't)figure that the output rating on the unit will be reduced by 50% due to moisture in the air. I am using a Sanders 200 mg. unit on a 230 gal. system fed into the venturi on my Tunze skimmer with a Tetra Luft pump to make sure I am getting enough throughput...without the pump I don't get sufficient tiny bubbles in the contact chamber.


KASESQ is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 01:20 PM   #12
Asfur
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Somerset West, South Africa
Posts: 100
I have just got my ozone generator back from repairs(the unit was sucking moist air in) and after 24hrs i cannot believe how clear the water now looks. Buy one, and just make sure it sucks air in thru a dryer and taht it runs thru a protein skimmer. i believe this way the chances of 03 passing into the tank are eliminated. the benefits of 03 include oxidizing ammonia and also an increase in oxygen levels. my lfs claim up to 30% more.
FWIW
asfur


Asfur is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 01:22 PM   #13
FMarini
10 & Over Club
 
FMarini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Posts: 5,260
Hi:
i use ozone in my 180 FO. i believe they have a nice role in these types of tanks, in as much as the amount of waste generated, and the increase(aid) in oxidation of waste products. I too inject into my skimmer and have the outflow (both ones) recieved by carbon containing bags-the water outflow, and the air outflow. I also use an ORP controller which turns everything on/off.I find the unit very helpful, it does remove the yellowing, and I believe(operative word here) it helps in keeping my tank clean.
If you do smell excess ozone, just dial back or place unit on a timer. excess O3 is bad for your lungs(and nasal tissue), and your fishes gills.
Ozonetech makes the top of the line. They are pricey. Other companies like Saunders and coralife sells nice "corona spark generators", while less efficent they do work well. The key w/ these types is keeping the moisture out. Therefore a drying tower is critcial before the input of air
my opinion
frank

[This message has been edited by FMarini (edited 09-21-2000).]


FMarini is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 01:39 PM   #14
JohnL
RC Staff
 
JohnL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 14,273
I've been using ozone for about a year now. I stopped running carbon on the water output of the skimmer after extensive residual O3 testing confirmed no trace of O3 in the skimmer water. I do run carbon on the air vent and find I need to change it weekly.

I agree with all of the above information. The best info I have found on the subject is by Albert Thiel in his book, Advanced Reefkeeping. It's out of print and hard to find.

Here are some on-line links:

by A. Thiel. Both books discuss it. The second one has more info.

by B. Fenner.

If you are thinking of using ozone, make sure to read the Thiel info and take the necessary precautions he mentions. Don't bother with a dryer. Expect to get about half of the rated O3 output (probably less). My unit is rated for 250 mg/hr btw, none of the manufactures tell you what flow rate they use to determine the output rating and flowrate is critical to the actual output and I have a 140 tank with a high fish load. For the most part, I get about an 80-100 mV increase in ORP.

quote:
Just wondering if many people use them and if you would recommend them. What's a good brand?


Not many people use them. Ozotech is a great unit but pretty big. Red Sea also makes a nice small unit.

[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 09-21-2000).]


JohnL is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 02:49 PM   #15
Martyn
Premium Member
 
Martyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Cambridgeshire England
Posts: 782
Why use ozone It is the last thing along with UV sterilises we should be using on our reef aquariums.
A balanced reef aquarium is what we strive for with live sand beds live rock lighting water movement water parameters a selection of creatures that are interconnected in the balance etc.
Have I got it wrong, Ozone kills bacteria etc has a better kill rate than a UV steriliser.
I have loads of algae's as yet I have not had a problem with yellowing of my water and if I had ozone IMO would not be the way to go.
Martyn

A bit from one of Eric Bornemans article.
http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog...an_051098.html

It troubles me knowing the lengths to which we go to eliminate bacteria in our tanks. Through much rumour, misinformation, and misunderstanding, we have allowed ourselves to be somehow mesmerised by deception. As a group, we tend to think that somehow we are able to maintain some vague populations of good nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria, but can then concentrate on eliminating the rest.... which certainly must be up to no good! Yet, we have learned that some of our good guys are potentially bad guys. And most of the bad guys are good guys.
When bacterial problems do arise, in fish or on corals, the attributable cause is normally an environmental parameter gone awry...a new specimen, poor water conditions, sediment disruption, and other stressors. Ordinarily, pathogenic action is under normal biologic control. Still, we purchase ozonators and UV sterilizers and turbo charged foam fractionators to rip all those bacteria out of the water column. Who needs ‘em, right? Corals, that’s who! All the lovely bacteria...for the enriched “marine snow,” and the antibiotics they produce, and their importance in the growth of other food sources......can we really afford to do this? And if we can, is it wise? What about our “sterilization techniques” prior to introducing corals. If these corals depend so heavily on normal bacterial populations in their mucus, why are we trying so hard to kill them? Perhaps we can hypothesize that things are “abnormal” prior to us obtaining them. To be honest, they probably are. But, water flow effectively reduces the thickness of the coral mucus and the coral surface microlayer....and is not stressful. Furthermore, we are not then eliminating, by bacteriocide, naturally occurring populations which may very well have been beneficial and normal to the animal. By applying a percentage of the previously mentioned probiotic study to the Platygyra study, we could potentially eliminate 26 species of bacteria which could have supplied natural antibiotic protection.
Lots and lots of diverse bacteria in our water, in our sand, on our rocks, and even on our corals is something desirable. This is how it should be. These microbes play an absolutely essential role, in all their biodiversity, in the function of both corals and the reef itself. Their importance in reef aquaria is likely even more important. We concern ourselves with the relative paranoia of a little voice that says “But what if they overpopulate, or what if I get a ‘bad’ one? Isn’t it better to be sure? Sterile is safe, right?”
I got some news for you, little voice!
They are already there!!!
If we can maintain a healthy tank, in balance, bacteria are our friends. If not, they can then become a problem. But the natural levels of any population, in contrast to artifically maintained sterility, will likely provide a better buffer than systems which are already running against what corals and coral reefs consider “normal.” If we fail to maintain healthy conditions, or a balanced group of life, bacteria are only one of the many potential problems we face...no more, no less. If we affect certain species of bacteria, we potentially effect or alter a vast network of trophic webs, biochemically mediated events, and natural population control. These are likely of greater potential risk than pathogenic bacteria which, we must admit, are already present. Even when disaster strikes, it will ultimately be the bacteria who restore order to the chaos.
With that, I leave you all with the following quote:
“Reef scientists have flirted with the intricate feeding specializations and relatively simple dynamics of grazing food webs for long enough. It is time to deal with the less attractive and tractable questions of the sources, fates, and fluxes of dead and dying plant material and excrement...Whole coral reef ecosystems rather than covenient components must be considered, and natural or man-made gradients in forcing functions used to elucidate system function.” Hatcher, 1983
Thanks everyone
Eric Borneman.



[This message has been edited by Martyn (edited 09-21-2000).]


Martyn is offline  
Old 09/21/2000, 04:54 PM   #16
Flame*Angel
Premium Member
 
Flame*Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,035
But is it realistic to think that we can recreate a whole coral reef ecosystem in a fish tank? I'm just in the set-up stages of my first reef and I find myself doubtful.

------------------
Learning about this hobby is a hobby in itself!


Flame*Angel is offline  
Old 09/22/2000, 03:25 AM   #17
Martyn
Premium Member
 
Martyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Cambridgeshire England
Posts: 782
Flame*Angel
you have a fish tank you are setting up or a reef system????/
All I can say is that I have a two year old thriving reef system that has no ozone or uv sterilizer and very little skimming no pre-filters etc.
you will have to decide your self what you feel is the best root for yourself.
Martyn

[This message has been edited by Martyn (edited 09-22-2000).]


Martyn is offline  
Old 09/22/2000, 04:27 AM   #18
FishWish
10 & Over Club
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Waterbury, Ct USA
Posts: 670
Sorry to join in the discussion so late. I also am very Pro 03 use. Over the several years that I've used 03 generators I've had wonderful results in my reef and in many others as well. The differance in reefs which do and do not use 03 is significant IMO. Personally I wouldn't consider running my reef W/O one. It doesn't seem to make a differance to fish though. Although in all cases I think that the higher redox level achieved through the use of these devices is a good thing..David


FishWish is offline  
Old 09/22/2000, 04:41 AM   #19
Flame*Angel
Premium Member
 
Flame*Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,035
Martyn - All I actually have at this point is a big empty tank sitting in my living room. I've been doing a lot of reading and research and intend to set up a reef system. One thing my research has taught me is to question everything before I purchase anything.

My purpose in this post is to determine whether or not an ozonizer would be beneficial or not.

------------------
Learning about this hobby is a hobby in itself!


Flame*Angel is offline  
Old 09/22/2000, 07:54 AM   #20
KASESQ
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Corona, CA -USA
Posts: 715
Martyn-I hear where you're coming from and agree to a certain point. But ozone is created naturally over the reef by UV hitting the water's surface. And if excess ozone is kept from the main tank using carbon or throttling back the generator, no bacteria should be lost. My concern is with the chronic yellowing I have in my tanks preventing the corals from getting all the light they need, and having seen multiple natural reefs I can say that, at least on the days I was snorkeling, the water was absolutely clear (what I call "blue water").The yellowing compounds can be reduced using GAC and not ozone, I just choose ozone for practical purposes (it's free). Plus, it makes my dog and cat infested house smell a lot better. lol


KASESQ is offline  
 

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:04 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014