Living With Ich... any advice?

[Gill_bucket]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

Other than a tank being fishless; what prevents them from entering a fish? Some healthy fish can offer more resistance than others, but no fish is immune.

Wow, did you just admit that some fish can be more resistant to Ick than others? Who are you and what did you do with Mr. Tuskfish?

[snorvich]

Treatments which work and Myths and Truths about Marine Ich

Treatments which work:

1. Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. (Best to use salinity, but if you use specific gravity, that equates to roughly 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units). Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. It is difficult to control pH and water quality during treatment, however this is the least stressful treatment for the fish.

2. Copper treatment - Follow medication recommendations. This can be effective in 2 to 4 weeks of treatment. After treatment, remove all copper and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish and creates some stress.

3.. Transfer method – The fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.

4. These are the ONLY 3 known cures that work almost 100% of the time. Other chemicals will kill the Cryptocaryon irritans parasite, but only in special conditions that are not good for the fish. Some chemicals will only kill some of the organisms, letting the others escape death to go on to multiply and infect.

Observations, Claims, and Common Myths:

1. Some Tangs seem more susceptible. This is true. Their mucous coatings are reduced in thickness and composition.

2. Cryptocaryon irritans goes away on its own. This is definitely NOT true. While Cryptocaryon irritans is only visible at one stage of its life cycle if it was once seen, then it hasn't gone away -- it's just not visible to the aquarist. Reread the life cycle described above.

3. It goes away with a ‘reef-safe’ remedy. This is not true; we all wish it was. This is one of the biggest and most 'dangerous' of the misrepresentations in the hobby. The aquarist thinks everything is okay when it isn't. What usually has happened is that the parasite has killed the fish it is able to kill and the rest have developed a resistance or immunity. The parasite is still in the aquarium, possibly infecting the gills of the fish where it can’t be seen. About 40% of fish seem able to develop this immunity.

4. It was gone then when a new fish is added, it is there again. This is not true. See 3 above. Cryptocaryon irritans wasn’t really gone or the new fish brought in the disease with it. A new addition to an aquarium can be the stress which triggers the other fish to reduce their defense or immunity, this will allow the parasite to 'bloom' to the point where the infection is now again visible to the aquarist.

5. The fish lived through the last outbreak then died during the second or subsequent outbreak. This can be true. The fish had a resistance or immunity that it lost.

6. It was accurately diagnosed as Cryptocaryon irritans, then never showed up again. It wasn’t ich or the fish quickly developed an immediate immunity or resistance, or the fish is still infected in the gills.

7. Cryptocaryon irritans can ‘hang around’ almost unnoticed with just a body spot now and then because it often resides just in the gills. This is true.

8. Aquariums always have Cryptocaryon irritans. This is untrue. Cryptocaryon irritans can be kept out of an aquarium. Just quarantine all fish, rock, sand, sponges, and filter medium and don’t let non-quarantined livestock get into the aquarium.

9. Fish always have Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. In the wild fish often show up to a 30% infection rate (or more) but the wild fish survive minor infections. In the tank the parasite can 'bloom' since In the tank the fish can't get away. The combination of bloom and no escape will overcome the fish. In capture and transportation the fish can share the disease and thus many wild caught marine aquarium fishes do have this parasite, but not all.

10. A fish can't be made to be totally rid of Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. All marine fish can be cured and rid of any Cryptocaryon irritans infection.

11. Just feed the fish well and/or feed it garlic and it will be okay. Not true. Nutrition, foods, vitamins, etc. don't cure an infected fish. An infected fish is sick and is being tortured by the itching and discomfort. It might pull through and acquire resistance or immunity (see above) but the fish is being stressed by having to contend with a parasite. Don't let this happen to the fish. Cure it!!

12. A new cure has been discovered. Very unlikely. If the aquarist thinks they have found a new cure, then have it researched and independently tested. It's easy and cheap. If it is as good as the above 3 tried and true methods then the professional veterinarians, private and public aquariums, fish farms, and I will use it. The aquarist needs to keep the perspective of how devastating this parasite is not to just the hobby but to the whole fish farming industry. Any new way of 100% treatment will make headlines!

13. If the Cryptocaryon irritans can't always be detected, then why bother with a quarantine procedure? In the confines of a small quarantine and being there for no less than 6 weeks, the Cryptocaryon irritans parasite will make itself known because the fish is weakened and the fish can't get away from being re-infected by multiplying Cryptocaryon irritans parasites. In other words, the quarantine procedure instigates a 'bloom' of the parasite which will make it visible to the aquarist. When this happens, treatment is appropriate with one of the three proven treatments.

14. All white nodules fall off the fish and move on to the cyst stage. Untrue. It has been discovered that, on very rare occasions (we don't know why) the white nodule will encyst and rupture while still on the fish.

15. UV and/or Ozone kills Cryptocaryon irritans. Ozone doesn't kill all parasites that pass through the unit, nor does the water treated with ozone kill the parasites. UV only kills the parasites that pass through the unit. Since the entire water volume does not pass through the unit, not all ich parasites will pass through the unit, so the UV will not rid an aquarium of Cryptocaryon irritans. A UV can help prevent a 'bloom' of the parasites however, and thus help in its control. UV is not a cure nor a preventative measure for Cryptocaryon irritans. When water is shared by multiple tanks, usage of UV can make spreading this parasite from tank to tank significantly less likely.

16. All spots are Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. Probably one of the most problematic causes for rumors and “myth-information” in the hobby is assuming that a spot is Cryptocaryon irritans when it may be another parasites or conditions (e.g., pimple-like reaction to infection) that look like Cryptocaryon irritans. The mis-diagnosis is often the cause for claims of what cured Cryptocaryon irritans, when the fish didn't have Cryptocaryon irritans to start with.

17. My LFS quarantines their fishes for 2 weeks and I only buy them to be sure they are healthy and free of Cryptocaryon irritans. Have you been reading the above? First, 2 weeks is not long enough. Secondly most LFS share water among their fish system tanks so if any new arrivals happened, the clock is effectively reset back to zero.

The truth is out there. . .Trust no one except yourself.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Gill_bucket

Wow, did you just admit that some fish can be more resistant to Ick than others? Who are you and what did you do with Mr. Tuskfish?

About 10% of fish seem to have selective resistance to some strains of parasites. Research has shown that this resistance can diminish over about six months.

[jcw]

Originally Posted by Gill_bucket

Are you actually trying to defend your obviously false statement?

Snorvich has explained many times what ich is and how it reproduces and why he believes you should treat.

You have not explained however why the ich would not "enter" a new fish particularly in the close confines of an aquarium where each tomont cyst could reproduce into hundreds of tomite parasites.

I am open to opinions in this matter and would like to hear your reasons and make my decision.


I quarantine fish but do not treat. With my final additions to my 125g, the next day, I noticed 4-5 VERY fine spots on my mimic tang.

At this point I am unwilling to go through quarantining 15 fish. And like MANY others have decided to ride it out and see.

Having treated the tank once for ich removing 5 fish earlier this year, there is simply NO WAY I'm doing it again.

[Gill_bucket]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Do not make this personal. Read the sticky on ich in this forum. I stand by what I said.

I took this from the sticky YOU posted

" 4. It was gone then when a new fish is added, it is there again. This is not true. See 3 above. Cryptocaryon irritans wasn’t really gone or the new fish brought in the disease with it. A new addition to an aquarium can be the stress which triggers the other fish to reduce their defense or immunity, this will allow the parasite to 'bloom' to the point where the infection is now again visible to the aquarist."

How could this be? How could there be a cycle of blooms when you clearly stated "Ick ALWAYS increases in density". Obviously ick MUST decrease in density otherwise how could people see the presence of ick, then find it unnoticeable and then see a "bloom" upon the introduction of a stressor.

[Gill_bucket]

"11. Just feed the fish well and/or feed it garlic and it will be okay. Not true. Nutrition, foods, vitamins, etc. don't cure an infected fish. An infected fish is sick and is being tortured by the itching and discomfort. It might pull through and acquire resistance or immunity (see above) but the fish is being stressed by having to contend with a parasite. Don't let this happen to the fish. Cure it!!"

A quickly setup QT can be a death sentence as well as stressful. If you have a large QT setup and ready then you will get nothing but praise from me, however if you are suggesting to others that they MUST quickly setup a QT then I fear you will lead a lot of people to unnecessarily kill their fish. I would agree with this type of panic if someone had velvet or if it was fresh water ich, but marine ick is not a death sentence. If it was as simple as some here state then why would there be any controversy?

[Gill_bucket]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

Other than a tank being fishless; what prevents them from entering a fish? Some healthy fish can offer more resistance than others, but no fish is immune.

You should change the reef central sticky then: "6. It was accurately diagnosed as Cryptocaryon irritans, then never showed up again. It wasn’t ich or the fish quickly developed an immediate immunity or resistance, or the fish is still infected in the gills."

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Gill_bucket

I took this from the sticky YOU posted

" 4. It was gone then when a new fish is added, it is there again. This is not true. See 3 above. Cryptocaryon irritans wasn’t really gone or the new fish brought in the disease with it. A new addition to an aquarium can be the stress which triggers the other fish to reduce their defense or immunity, this will allow the parasite to 'bloom' to the point where the infection is now again visible to the aquarist."

How could this be? How could there be a cycle of blooms when you clearly stated "Ick ALWAYS increases in density". Obviously ick MUST decrease in density otherwise how could people see the presence of ick, then find it unnoticeable and then see a "bloom" upon the introduction of a stressor.

At this point you are not bringing any information to the table. And it would seem that all you want to be is argumentative and confrontational. . If that is all you can bring to the table, please go away. And, by the way you might increase your reading comprehension skills.

[Gill_bucket]

Originally Posted by snorvich

At this point you are not bringing any information to the table. And it would seem that all you want to be is argumentative and confrontational. . If that is all you can bring to the table, please go away. And, by the way you might increase your reading comprehension skills.

You really can't admit when your wrong can you?

[bdroddy]

My hippo tang has white spots for about 3 weeks. I'm setting up my qt now. My question is why don't my other fish have it? My fish list:
Firefish
3 chromis
Christmas wrasse
Sailfin Tang
Potter's angel
My blue tang
Orange spotted rabbit fish

I'm having trouble catching my blue tang that is why I haven't put him in yet. I'm going to keep the blue tang out for 9 weeks.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Gill_bucket

You really can't admit when your wrong can you?

Actually, I reviewed your posting history. As you admittedly do not quarantine, you have no credibility with me or those who are truly knowledgeable in the field.

[Gill_bucket]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Actually, I reviewed your posting history. As you admittedly do not quarantine, you have no credibility with me or those who are truly knowledgeable in the field.

First you speak in absolutes and then you speak for others; aren't you the enlightened one.

[b0bab0ey]

Man, I go eat some Indian food for dinner and all of sudden, it's Ich turned ugly.

Gill, we've explained to you how we deal with Ich. So, instead of just bashing, why don't you explain to us how you deal with Ich?

[Toddrtrex]

Gill_bucket --- Lose the attitude soon.

FYI -- I get cranky when I have to repeat myself.

[Gill_bucket]

Originally Posted by b0bab0ey

Man, I go eat some Indian food for dinner and all of sudden, it's Ich turned ugly.

Gill, we've explained to you how we deal with Ich. So, instead of just bashing, why don't you explain to us how you deal with Ich?

I currently have Ick in my 125, and it has been there for over two years. Currently only the blue tang shows signs of it (2 or 3 spots). I keep my fish well fed and unstressed other than that I do nothing, I do feed garlic but in no way do I think it is a miracle cure. When I recently added a new fish (flame angle) I had another bloom by that I mean 20 or so spots on the blue tang and 3 or 4 spots on other fish which usually show no sign of it. I didn't panic and try to throw together a QT, instead I waited it out lost no fish and now it is once again under control.

I did loose three fish about a year ago to the ick but I truly believe that a poorly executed QT could have wiped out ALL of my fish. I recognize that having multiple QTs set up and running at all times would be far better then what I have, however for many this is unpracticle so instead people go out and get a ten gallon tank mix some fresh salt water up and kill their fish. Then Mr. Tuskfish tells them it was the Ick in the gills of an otherwise healthy fish which caused them to die overnight. I believe that the only reliable way to rid a tank of ick is to go fallow, however I do not believe that ick is a death sentence or even has to be an irritant, my fish never scratch on the rocks or breath heavily.

I also find it odd that the recommendation of QT is not fully disclosed. To truly keep ick out of ones tank you must QT all new comers, this includes snails and corals, this would require an entire reef ready QT for frags and hermit crabs ext. IMO most people can not nor will they do this, so telling them they MUST QT all their fish because they see a spot or two only puts their fish at risk with no long term benefit.

My real concern is not that people recommend QT, because I believe it is the appropriate course of action if done properly. I am concerned about the miss information presented in order to bully people into taking your point of view, this leads to an undo haste and results in an improper QT. People should be presented with the facts and the real risks on BOTH sides so that they can make an informed decision.

[tmz]

Gill Buckett. You seem to be playing a game of picayune semantics and trying to be pedantic to give an illusion of higher knowledge but it's not working for you since you don't even present enough information to be obfuscatory or tangential; just nonsensical , unduly argumentative and irritating. Let's play 20 questions type posts and a snarky attitude don't go very far. It's unfortunate since folks who are interested in caring for the fish they keep might loose sight of proper husbandry with all the jibberish and personal attack. If you have a specific point make a clear statement and back it up.If you don't have a specific point don't post just to satisfy some aggressive inclination at the expense of others. Poking at others and engaging in personal attack justs irritates folks ; wastes everyone's time and detracts from the learning nature of the discussion..

On the subject of living with ich. Ich kills.

Once cryptocaryon irritans is in a tank it will stay there for a long time as long as there are fish to host theronts. Many fish will die from the ich itself in the first or second or third wave whether they are well fed or not ;some fish may survive and some of them will develop partial immunity to the strain to which they were exposed but some theronts will host unseen even in these survivors' tender tissues of the gills and ,nose and mouth.A single one can produce hundreds during each short life cylce which will kill new specimens and often introducing new specimens or other mild stress events spark an outbreak which can overwhelm even the partially immune fish.

There is a simple choice. One can choose to keep a tank with ich in it which will persist for years and kill many fish or quarantine and treat all infected fish and new specimens and treat an infected tank by leaving it fishless for 72 days. Best,imo, is to qt and treat prophylactically from the get go to keep it out of a new system.

Quarantine ,needn't be large or complicated or stressful . Ammonia is the big issue but easily managed . Personally, I qt all new specimens and treat them prophylactically via tank transfer.

[FrEsHaZzBuRu]

I have a six line wrasse that may have ich, but i'm not too sure. I've noticed once in a while a possible spec on it's tail, but it also looks like it may just be a small spec of debris from the water because there is some coming from my power head every now and then that looks similar.

Anyhow, I just wanted to know if I end up taking the fish out, would I have to take out my 2 spot goby into the QT too? Or would it be ok to leave just he goby in the DT?

[tmz]

I also find it odd that the recommendation of QT is not fully disclosed. To truly keep ick out of ones tank you must QT all new comers, this includes snails and corals, this would require an entire reef ready QT for frags and hermit crabs ext. IMO most people can not nor will they do this, so telling them they MUST QT all their fish because they see a spot or two only puts their fish at risk with no long term benefit.

My real concern is not that people recommend QT, because I believe it is the appropriate course of action if done properly. I am concerned about the miss information presented in order to bully people into taking your point of view, this leads to an undo haste and results in an improper QT. People should be presented with the facts and the real risks on BOTH sides so that they can make an informed decision.

That's better except for the impugning the motives of others by suggesting they are bullies or soehow deliberately not disclosing information.

Regarding corals,snails,etc. It is as most things are possible a cyst could find it's way in on one of these sepcimens or the rock it's attached too. But the normal chain of custody for these specimens makes the chances very very slim. Unless,perhaps, they came from an infested tank and went right into your tank the likelyhood of infecting a tank with cryptocaryon irritans when adding an ivertebrate or rock are remote. The parasites usually leave the fish at night and settle on surfaces adjacent to where the fish sleeps The cyst usually remain viable for about 28 days. The longest recorded viability is 72 days in cold water.So by the time a wild specimen gets to your tank continued viability of any cyst that may by remote chance have settled there is likely long over. Brushing off surfaces with a tooth brush may be useful if you are concerned. Adding unquarantined fish on the other hand fish carrries a high risk.

I'm sorry you have ich in your tank. I've been there. Tried lot's of ways to cope, uvs, garlic, etc. Argued ad nauseum to protect my sense that I was doing the correct thing. I ws scared to move the fish anddidn't want to take the tank down to do so. Doesn't work. Lot's of us have been there.. The passion to stop ich comes from witnessing the terrible carnage in the hobby it causes not from a need for pedantry. The science on it is very clear . Maybe in a tank over several years the strain will expire if no new strains are introduced. Maybe it won't. Studies on that are inconclusive. So whatever course you choose , good luck to you and your fish and best wishes for a beautiful aquarium

QT and treatment can be as brief as 12 days with tank transfer( 3 days per tank). QT doesn't need to be complicated. New water a seeded sponge ,ammonia monitoring, some ammonia detoxifier ,granulated activaed carbon in a small filter, a bit of heat,light feeding ,bare bottom, pvc resting spots ,some surface agitation. Really no risk at all with just a little forethought and attention to detail.

[tmz]

Wrasses create a web of mucous when they sleep . Sometimes they bury in the sand . You may be seeing debris. A single spot with no other symptoms probably isn't ich.

[Dino]

Originally Posted by tmz

Gill Buckett. You seem to be playing a game of picayune semantics and trying to be pedantic to give an illusion of higher knowledge but it's not working for you since you don't even present enough information to be obfuscatory or tangential; just nonsensical , unduly argumentative and irritating. Let's play 20 questions type posts and a snarky attitude don't go very far. It's unfortunate since folks who are interested in caring for the fish they keep might loose sight of proper husbandry with all the jibberish and personal attack. If you have a specific point make a clear statement and back it up.If you don't have a specific point don't post just to satisfy some aggressive inclination at the expense of others. Poking at others and engaging in personal attack justs irritates folks ; wastes everyone's time and detracts from the learning nature of the discussion..

This is most excellent advice that I don't think I could have said as well.

[MrTuskfish]

If ich and fish are alive in the same tank, the ich is going to multiply. Although the timeline may have a lot of variables; its inevitable. Every once in a while, some fish seem to develop some TEMPORARY immunity, although I think even these fish are always carrying some ich somewhere. people then use these fish as an example of how ich can be "managed". I've followed a few of these myths, and there are never any follow-up accounts of long-term success. IMO, failure to use a QT, and then telling others that "managing" (rather than eradicating) parasites is some of the worst possible advice we can give. Craig's list is full of equipment from frustrated hobbyists who though they could control parasites indefinitely. Countless dead fish long the way too.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by bdroddy

My hippo tang has white spots for about 3 weeks. I'm setting up my qt now. My question is why don't my other fish have it? My fish list:
Firefish
3 chromis
Christmas wrasse
Sailfin Tang
Potter's angel
My blue tang
Orange spotted rabbit fish

I'm having trouble catching my blue tang that is why I haven't put him in yet. I'm going to keep the blue tang out for 9 weeks.

The tank is the most ich-prone and your other fish will get it too if you don't treat properly. Please start a new thread for help, this one isn't going to give you the help you need.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by FrEsHaZzBuRu

I have a six line wrasse that may have ich, but i'm not too sure. I've noticed once in a while a possible spec on it's tail, but it also looks like it may just be a small spec of debris from the water because there is some coming from my power head every now and then that looks similar.

Anyhow, I just wanted to know if I end up taking the fish out, would I have to take out my 2 spot goby into the QT too? Or would it be ok to leave just he goby in the DT?

Please see my post above.

[b0bab0ey]

Originally Posted by Gill_bucket

I currently have Ick in my 125, and it has been there for over two years. Currently only the blue tang shows signs of it (2 or 3 spots). I keep my fish well fed and unstressed other than that I do nothing, I do feed garlic but in no way do I think it is a miracle cure. When I recently added a new fish (flame angle) I had another bloom by that I mean 20 or so spots on the blue tang and 3 or 4 spots on other fish which usually show no sign of it. I didn't panic and try to throw together a QT, instead I waited it out lost no fish and now it is once again under control.

I did loose three fish about a year ago to the ick but I truly believe that a poorly executed QT could have wiped out ALL of my fish. I recognize that having multiple QTs set up and running at all times would be far better then what I have, however for many this is unpracticle so instead people go out and get a ten gallon tank mix some fresh salt water up and kill their fish. Then Mr. Tuskfish tells them it was the Ick in the gills of an otherwise healthy fish which caused them to die overnight. I believe that the only reliable way to rid a tank of ick is to go fallow, however I do not believe that ick is a death sentence or even has to be an irritant, my fish never scratch on the rocks or breath heavily.

I guess from my POV why go through the headaches and hassle of fighting Ich for over 2 years, when going fallow for 9 weeks solves the problem. I guess I'm more of a "get it over with" and "one and done" kinda guy. I hate problems/issues that drag on and on. Losing three fish would have been more than enough incentive for me to realize I needed to do something about this problem.

Originally Posted by Gill_bucket

I also find it odd that the recommendation of QT is not fully disclosed. To truly keep ick out of ones tank you must QT all new comers, this includes snails and corals, this would require an entire reef ready QT for frags and hermit crabs ext. IMO most people can not nor will they do this, so telling them they MUST QT all their fish because they see a spot or two only puts their fish at risk with no long term benefit.

My real concern is not that people recommend QT, because I believe it is the appropriate course of action if done properly. I am concerned about the miss information presented in order to bully people into taking your point of view, this leads to an undo haste and results in an improper QT. People should be presented with the facts and the real risks on BOTH sides so that they can make an informed decision.

How do you suggest one QTs?

I'm guessing you have issues with small QT tanks or QT'ing bare bottom without any biological filtration to break down ammonia. I, myself, have advocated using an u/g filter in a QT tank, as I did that for years. The only two downsides is keeping it cycled (when not in use) and crushed coral will absorb some meds, esp copper. So, you have to test and re-dose to maintain your copper level. I recently switched over to bare bottom w/an AquaClear HOB filter w/a sponge seeded from my DT (like MrTuskfish advocates) and have had 0 ammonia issues. He's made a believer out of me.

I don't see anyone pushing one QT method over another on here. They just advocate QT'ing... period. Nobody shut me down when I was offering my opinion and telling others how to QT using an u/g filter. Nothing disheartens a newbie more than watching their entire tank get wiped out to Ich. We all lose when that happens for so many different reasons. So, I think at the end of the day, all of us on here who give out advice are motivated to do so because we want to see newbies grow in knowledge so the hobby itself can grow.

[tmz]

Studies note survivors develop partial immunity which may last for an indefinate period to the same strain. How partial it is or isn't depends to some degree on stressors or incentives to the parasites like increased temperature, water q changes and on and on. There is also one study that suggest a single strain may expire without sexual reproduction involving another strain over a long period of time, probably more than a year or two in most cases if at all.