T5s vs. MH... What would be the ultimate faceoff?

[firerock]

Originally posted by Henry Bowman
Me thinks Sanjay now knows what it is like to open a can of worms......

Yup, a can of reef worms.

I am sure that he also knows whatever decision he makes will have the full support and appreciation from all of us on this forum, even though someone will always demand just a little more.

[Henry Bowman]

Yeah firerock. His information and research has saved me a considerable amount of time and frustration in the Mh area. I'm really looking fwd to whatever information he gives us...

[ReefRockerLive]

Like any new company that is introduced into the hobby, it needs time to become noticed by reefers. Which is why I too agree that the Fauna Marin Ultra Solaris should be one of the fixtures used in the tests. From what I've seen in person these T5 fixtures are brighter than the Aquatinics.

[kroe]

There are three common levels of T5 setup, it would be great if each could be tested:

1.) Cheap fixtures (ie. CurrentUSA) with flat or "single parabolic" reflector.

2.) Decent fixtures (ie. Tek) with parabolic reflectors and standard electronic ballasts.

3.) High end fixtures (ie. Aquactinics Solar Flare) with parabolic reflectors and ballasts that overdrive the bulbs (ie. IC 660).

To do any real comparison with metal halide I think at least #2 and #3 need to be included. I know from experience (with a PAR meter) that there is a huge difference between a "decent" (tek) and "high end" (icecap) T5 setup in output.

[hahnmeister]

Originally posted by Sanjay
Ok.. so are we converging here on a few things.

Fixtures: SLS and Aquanitics ? I would like to stick to commercially available stuff that is easily available in the US. Use ballasts and reflectors that are sold with this fixtures.

Wattage: try to match watts with MH ? But the problem is that a 4X54 watts is less than a 250W and a 6X54 is more than a 250W. 8X54 is more comparable to a 400W.

Color Temp: Compare lamp combo of T5 that represents color output similar to CCT of MH.. so a combo of lamps to compare against 10K, a different combo to compare against 14K, etc. I will need help picking the right combo of lamps.

Measurement depths: Measure at 30" to get good idea of spread and distribution at bottom of tanks. Test will be done in air, as a first order approximation - water should have the same effect on all lights so we can remove it as a variable. Any need to take measurements at different depths. ?

Measurement Surface: 4ft X 3ft with readings at 3 in interverals.

Measured Values: PAR/PPFD at points on the surface. Measuring CCT of a mix of lamps may not make sense since it could be affected by the poor mixing of light from the different lamps.

Is there any value in measuing output and spectrals of individual lamps ? I do not want to step on anyone elses toes.. I know some of your (GrimReefer) are measuring individual lamp outputs.

sanjay.

1.The fauna marin units are available in the US through Aqauarium Obsessed, and represent the best use of T5 technology w/o overdriving the bulbs like the icecap/aquatinics solar flare. The regular solar flares do not have the better reflectors, and the Teks have a few serious flaws... like heat buildup and reflector corrosion. I feel that the fauna-marin is the best idea should you look for a fixture to test.

At that, perhaps it is a better idea to not use a specific fixture, but to make your own retrofit. This will allow you to use a nice Sylvania ballast (something I would consider over the Triads and the Advance ballasts because the Sylvanias-OSRAMS run at a higher frequency, and have thermal sensing built in), icecap reflectors (which represent the best US available reflectors right now), etc. Using this retrofit, easily mounted on a piece of particle board or plywood, you would not be subscribing to any brand, yet have good flexibility and control, and a very good application of the technology that wouldnt be hindered by any manufacturer specific design flaws like with the Tek or Aquatinics (the Teks having the heat issue, the solarflare not being a spec ballast, and the other aquatinics not having the best reflectors).

2. Wattage/length: I truly feel that the best comparison would be from a single 250wattDE halide and a 3' setup of bulbs. When you go 4', you are representing a tank or use of halides that would include dual 250wattDE halides, and then you are talking 640-some watts of halide. That would require about 11-12 bulbs of T5 to match in wattage. If you want t do this... be my guest, but its alot more than matching 8x39wattT5s... not to mention... when is the last time you saw a 12x54 watt setup...thats 30" wide if you use icecap reflectors!!!

Otherwise, matching a single halide to a compliment of 4' bulbs just isnt fair to either light. A 6x54watt T5 is about 330 watts, about the same as a 250wattDE on a M80 ballast... depending on what halide bulb (my pheonix is about 320watts, a 10,000K would be slightly more, possibly up to 350 tough). The 4' Tek wouldnt compare well with a single halide... the spread and such are just two things you wouldnt even see in similar situations even. The halide would beat the pants off the T5 up top, and te T5 would penetrate deeper, and wider. It wouldnt be a very worth-while comparison to make.

So if you do a single 250wattDE/M80, then 8x39wattT5 would be best. If you want to do dual 250wattDE, then 11-12x54wattT5 would be the best comparison.

3. Color Temp: we can come up with exacts later on, but the best way to do this would be to list the halide bulbs (and the ballast, I assume M80), that you intend to match. Then we can come up with a suggested compliment of T5 bulbs. I have listed a few already, and some suggested 'benchmark halides'. I hope you read that and found it useful.

4. Measurement depths. With various halides to compare, the effect of the water and glass walls of the tank do not vary much... they are similar. But I think you will find this NOT to be the case when comparing T5s to halides. the height of the fixtures, and the different spreads of the bulbs/reflectors behave differently. I do not agree that water is a variable that should effect both types of light in the same way. Its reflective properties, and the angles of refraction effect the light from a halide and T5 very differently. For instance... the PAR reading I get reflected back up at the ceiling at 8" from the water surface with my halide pendants is a 8-10. With a T5 assembly, this light is recaptured by the larger reflector and this light is sent back downwards. Adding water to the evaluation of comparing regular mini-pendants to lumenarc3-style pendants will change the results as well... lumenarcs are able to send more light into the water at angles normal to the water surface... mini-pendants do not. This means that the lumenarc will get more light into the water due to less refracted light. The height and spread of the T5s vs halides with respect to the water surface is something that I dont think should be overlooked. If you like, I can conduct the experiment myself to show why when I get home after friday.

5. Surface. If your surface is only 4' long, wouldnt measuring a 4' bulb be a little out of the question? All that light at the sides would be lost after all. The test rigs I see in the german forums like merwasserforum.de are 6' wide by 4' deep to test 4' fixtures like the ATIs and fauna-marins.

6. Indvidual lamps are not of much concern to this comparison... however... Im sure many here would love to see how closely the actual/tested outputs and spectrums of various individual bulbs compare to the manufacturer specs. The Giesemann true actinic 03 has levels of UV-A that arent really shown on the mfg spectrum graph, or in any detail. FWIW, I plan on doing the same with my Ocean Optics (thanks for the suggestion BTW), but Im sure more would read your data since Im not the one getting published.

[hahnmeister]

Things I wouldnt do...
1. Test a Tek: The fixture has a heating flaw and I wouldnt consider it an accurate measure of T5's potential. I think the retrofit is the best option at this point, and at that the fauna-marin is pretty much just that, with a black box to mount the endcaps on.
2. Use anything with an Icecap ballast: perhaps as an add-on, but Icecaps are not a spec T5 ballast.
3. Compare a 4' T5 light to a single halide.
4. Compare a wattage of halides that varies from a wattage of T5 that varies more than 20-30 watts.
5. Compare a flat reflector. If anyone is interested, the tests have already been done on several German sites. If you need to see, I can send a link, but about 60% of the T5's output is lost w/o individual parabolic reflectors.

But do: mix bulbs to get as close a match to whats likely used and matches a known halide bulb.

1. Use a retrofit/fauna-marin fixture. This would be the best example of whats out there. These two options will also relate to more reefers as they represent what is more commonly used.

2. Use a fan and laser pyrometer to keep the bulbs at their peak output and suggested surface temp (95C).

[kroe]

If IceCap T5 ballasts are disqualified for not being off the shelf (which I think they are - many people use them in retros and the solar flare is a pre-made fixture with them), then I don't think it would be fair to use a lumenarc 3 reflector.

If this is limited to out of the box units, you'd have to compare with a maristar, oceanlight, or similar halide, not a gigantic super high end reflector that is normally placed inside a custom canopy.

The fauna-marin fixture is not mainstream. I have seen the fauna marin in person; looks more like a DIY than a professional quality fixture IMO.

[firerock]

It seems like this is getting more and more complicated. I am sure Sanjay is having a headache now.

My personal feeling toward Fauna Marine is that I don't think a lot of people are using it or its bulbs (AquaScience), since most of us are using D&D, ATI, and/or UVL bulbs, or simply a mix of them all. AquaScience also offers a 15k, which is not seen in the other brands.

I also agree with kroe that it looks much more like a retro setup than a "fixture". No where comparable to the sleek look of Tek or ATI (by far the best looking IMO). I'll never get an approval to put that over an open top aquarium no matter how much more light it puts out. But that's just me. :P

I am all for testing 36" fixtures because that's what I have, but I am sure that Sanjay has a good reason for choosing the 48", perhaps because an 54W X 8 T5s is close to a single 400W MH in wattage wise, thus eliminates energy used as a variable.

At this point, I think if I were Sanjay, I'll just test whatever I can get my hands on first. Later, when he's able to expend his tests, he can always swap the ballast, bulbs, reflectors, to measure the differences of each variable. Of course, that's assuming he has a lot of time on his hands to run all the tests. I am sure all the data he collected on the MH did not happen overnight.

[The Grim Reefer]

Damn Sanjay, it must suck to be you sometimes

Just want to clear something up on the Solar Flare. It uses Ice Cap reflectors, don't know where you got the idea it didn't Hahn.

To me testing the best available makes the most sense if the idea is to determine the potential of T5's. I realize that might not be possible in which case the Tek would be the way to go. We know it is now at the bottom as far as the "good" T5 fixtures go so it would be a useful guideline. Testing the ATI or Fauna Marin would not really tell us much because we don't know for sure how they stack up against the others. The ATI I tested was a 220v version running on transformers so until someone put a PAR meter under a 110v version we don't know for sure where they stand and nobody has tested a Fauna Marin.

Good Luck

[firerock]

Originally posted by The Grim Reefer
Damn Sanjay, it must suck to be you sometimes

Judging by how much efforts you have put into the ever-ending "The T5 Q&a Thread", sometimes it must suck to be you as well, Grim.

I donno how you do it, but it give me a headache just thinking how many "what bulbs to use", "how many bulbs", not to mention "what's the best bulb combination" questions you have answered in that thread.

People like Sanjay and yourself are what has made this reefing community well informed and successful.

[Oliver P.]

The ATI I tested was a 220v version running on transformers so until someone put a PAR meter under a 110v version we don't know for sure where they stand

Hi,

please feel sure that there is no difference between the 220 and the 110 Volt Versoin. We are preparing a big shipment to the US and our Powermoduls will be available in the US very soon.

Our Powermodul represent the latest T5-Technologie. We developed the active cooling two years ago, we use expensive silver coated Reflectormaterial (with 98,2 reflection-rate instead of the 94% from the best polished aluminiumreflector) and many details more.

We also compared many T5-Systems and there are really big differences in the market.

At our point of view, we believe that it only makes sence to compare the latest lighting technologies. For example the best available Metal-halide-sytem (or Reflektorsystem) VS. best T5-System. In this way it is possible to give people more infos instead of just compare the most popular systems.

thanks,
Oliver

[Ti]

Originally posted by Henry Bowman
Me thinks Sanjay now knows what it is like to open a can of worms......

Yup

[firerock]

Although I am excited to see the ATI fixture, with all of these vendors jumping into this thread signals "trouble". Hopefully all vendors stays "civil", so the thread doesn't get closed by the mods.

Maybe if Sanjay checks his front door, he just might find shipments of all kinds of stuff from the vendors all over the world already waiting for him at the doorsteps. :P

[hahnmeister]

kroe and firerock,
the fauna-marin is a good example of a T5 light BECAUSE it is so similar to a regular retrofit. I would consider this to be an advantage, not a drawback. It is similar to a regular retrofit, only that its mounted to a black box, and many of the better T5 examples found in the US riht now are retrofits. FWIW, it is very similar to a regular tek retrofit, and can easily serve as a platform for testing different reflectors because they are clip-on. It also has thermal management, so the heat buildup should not be as much of a concern as with a retro. The fauna-marin style of fixture may not be a good example of what is over here so far for fixtures, but Aquaconnect and ATI have nearly identical units made under their name as well (the sunpower and lumimaster), and so they are rather common. I would consider the fauna marin unit to be a good benchmark because it represents how T5s SHOULD be run, unlike a Tek or a Solar Flare.

The powermodule would be a great fixture to compare... as it appears to be the pinnacle of T5 tech at the moment, so if Oliver wants to send Sanjay a sample on loan for testing... the 'ultimate' sample would be an interesting contrast.

Grim, I didnt mean to say that the solar flare had lesser reflectors, just the other aquatinics fixtures. It was late and i typed solar flare rather than aquatinics. The Solar Flares have the Icecap reflectors, but not the others. The Solar Flare should be DQ'ed because it it not a standard spec T5 ballast, and outside the small amount you may find in the US, its not a universal/international standard like you could say about M80 ballasts are for 250wattDE halide bulbs. This is also the reason why an e-ballast like an Icecap shouldnt be used as an example for halide. I dont think this should upset anyone though, as M80s would give the highest output for these tests. A good spec T5 ballast, like te Sylvania QTPs, the OSRAM QTPs, or electronic start Advance ballasts would be my pick.

[The Grim Reefer]

The Fauna Marin is a poor choice because we have no idea how it stacks up against the others so what can we gleam from the results?

We know for a fact the Ice Cap stuff is the top and the Tek is the bottom (As far as the good systems go). Testing either of those will give us a good idea of where we stand.

At this point I've said my piece and wont respond here any more lest we give Sanjay a bigger headache than he already has

[sjm817]

I would agree that I would like to see tests performed on what we are actually using. Ice Cap, SLS, Aquatinics. I dont see a point in using fixtures, ballasts or bulbs that no one uses. Maybe I'm thinking too "USA-centric", but I believe that is where most people who read this forum are from.

[hahnmeister]

The fauna-marin is pretty much exactly what you would get from a retrofit with icecap reflectors and a fan. the primary reason I suggest it is because it wouldnt require assembly by Sanjay. Its a retrofit mounted to a black box otherwise. It seems like a pretty good benchmark standard to me... no serious flaws like the Tek, yet not overdriven like the Aquatinics/Icecap option.

I see the Ultra-solaris as the option that reflects what you would get if you were to mount waterproof endcaps, clip on reflectors, and seperate ballasts and a fan inside a canopy or onto a board. Thats all it is really. The Osram ballasts, similar to the Sylvania ballasts made here in most every way, are rather stock actually. The ultra solaris is a rather stock setup when you look at it that way.

I dont mean to sound 'anti-USA' here, but there just isnt a USA made unit that has T5 bulbs set up the way they were meant to be WITH halfway decent refletors. The Teks overheat, the Aquatinics/Icecap solution is overdriven, and the regular aquatinics are some 'other' reflector. The Fauna-marin uses reflectors just like the ones sold by the aqualux lighting website, FWIW.

Otherwise, I would suggest Sanjay simply uses a retrofit setup... The Tek retrofit with the Icecap SLR upgrade. Then he could mount it to a board, have a seperate cooling fan, etc. This option would also allow him to also use either/or 3' and 4' bulbs/ballasts for testing by simply swapping ballasts and moving the endcaps... adding and removing the number of bulbs as seen fit. It would also allow Sanjay the most versatility should he decide to keep the equipment and add on to his own systems. I dont know if this equipment is going to be purchased or donated after all.

Another option would be to see if Aquatinics/Icecap would make one of those solar-flare units with regular spec electronic T5 ballasts, not the icecap.

[ReefRockerLive]

Without the Icecap upgrade on the Aquatinics, it wouldn't be a Solar Flare anymore, it would be their regular T5 fixtures with a few new upgrades such as reflectors and icecap fans.

[The Grim Reefer]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
The fauna-marin is pretty much exactly what you would get from a retrofit with icecap reflectors and a fan. the primary reason I suggest it is because it wouldnt require assembly by Sanjay. Its a retrofit mounted to a black box otherwise. It seems like a pretty good benchmark standard to me... no serious flaws like the Tek, yet not overdriven like the Aquatinics/Icecap option.

I see the Ultra-solaris as the option that reflects what you would get if you were to mount waterproof endcaps, clip on reflectors, and seperate ballasts and a fan inside a canopy or onto a board. Thats all it is really. The Osram ballasts, similar to the Sylvania ballasts made here in most every way, are rather stock actually. The ultra solaris is a rather stock setup when you look at it that way.

I dont mean to sound 'anti-USA' here, but there just isnt a USA made unit that has T5 bulbs set up the way they were meant to be WITH halfway decent refletors. The Teks overheat, the Aquatinics/Icecap solution is overdriven, and the regular aquatinics are some 'other' reflector. The Fauna-marin uses reflectors just like the ones sold by the aqualux lighting website, FWIW.

Otherwise, I would suggest Sanjay simply uses a retrofit setup... The Tek retrofit with the Icecap SLR upgrade. Then he could mount it to a board, have a seperate cooling fan, etc. This option would also allow him to also use either/or 3' and 4' bulbs/ballasts for testing by simply swapping ballasts and moving the endcaps... adding and removing the number of bulbs as seen fit. It would also allow Sanjay the most versatility should he decide to keep the equipment and add on to his own systems. I dont know if this equipment is going to be purchased or donated after all.

Another option would be to see if Aquatinics/Icecap would make one of those solar-flare units with regular spec electronic T5 ballasts, not the icecap.

Ok, 1 more post and then stay out

I measured the Aquactinics reflectors against Ice Cap's with a slight advantage going to the Aquactinics reflectors. On the other hand Aquactinics use WH ballasts, not the best for T5.

[sjm817]

A lot of people use Ice Cap ballasts. I dont see why it wouldn't be a good idea to test with them. Ideally, a normal spec ballast and an IC to see what the difference is, but I dont want to ask for too much! I agree that a retrofit setup would be easiest to work with. Easy to use different reflectors and ballast combos.

[Sanjay]

Ok.. I am back from two long days of meetings and catching up on this thread to see where it headed so far.

yes, it sucks to me be :-(, especially if I have to all this work and don't have all the time in the world to do it.

Not having kept up with T5 technology, it seems like there are a lot more variables involved here.

Some of the points on comparing 4ft fixtures to MH make sense. Unfortunately, I can only test them in air at this point.. working underwater is not easy.

I am going to start with simple stuff, to get some grasp on what we could be dealing with here.

So, what would be a good comparison with say a lumenarc III running a 250W on a M80 ballast. A 6X39W T5 fixture ? I would like to stick to off the shelf units and not build my own.

I have emails from a few people: Oliver P, Tom at Aquatnetics so I think getting the fixtures should not be a problem. I have not replied to them yet, until I have a firmer grasp of what I need.

Lets deciede on the fixture first, before getting into lamp combos.

Right now the main names that have come up are:
TeK lights
Aquanitics - Solar Flare
ATI - powermodule
Fauna Marin

Can you point me to the german test rigs that was mentioned in an earlier post ? I would like to see what data is out there already ?

Thanks,

sanjay.

[ReefRockerLive]

Sanjay, I think this is the german website:
http://archiv.korallenriff.de/Lichttest/06_t5_test.html

Use google to translate the page.

[The Grim Reefer]

I had the chance to test a 4x39 watt Tek, 5x39 Aquactinics and a 4x39 ATI power module. The power module by far had the strongest output. If you can get a 120v 6x39 power module that is going to be close to the best you can do without overdriving.

If ATI ponies up a fixture maybe Fauna Marin will too so we can see which is best.

[ReefRockerLive]

Sanjay, maybe Aquarium Obsessed can send one to you. PM them you never know what they may say

[firerock]

Originally posted by Sanjay

yes, it sucks to me be :-(, especially if I have to all this work and don't have all the time in the world to do it.

Come on, it can't be that bad. You know we are all counting on ya.

So, what would be a good comparison with say a lumenarc III running a 250W on a M80 ballast. A 6X39W T5 fixture ? I would like to stick to off the shelf units and not build my own.

Watt for watt wise I think it is an ideal comparison (234W vs 250W), and the light coverage for an 36"w tank will be ideal in either way. While people that has 48" tanks will more likely be employing 2 MH instead of 1, a single 250W can light a 36" tank pretty well.

I have emails from a few people: Oliver P, Tom at Aquatnetics so I think getting the fixtures should not be a problem. I have not replied to them yet, until I have a firmer grasp of what I need.

Lets deciede on the fixture first, before getting into lamp combos.

Right now the main names that have come up are:
TeK lights
Aquanitics - Solar Flare
ATI - powermodule
Fauna Marin

Unfortunately, Aquactinics Solar Flare does not offer 6X39W fixtures at this time, just as it doesn't offer 8X48W fixtures. Its choices are limited at this point, thus limits its popularity. Sorry, Grim...

Personally, I don't think Fauna Marin is really a "fixture", it truly is a retro, and employees light bulbs that's not widely in use in the US (AquaScience). Currently there seems to be only one supplier carrying the fixture and its bulbs in the US (I might be wrong). Therefore, results from testing this fixture will probably not be of much use for most of US users due to its limited popularity and that's unlikely to change anytime soon.

Before we get into lamp combos, it is important to note that the most commonly used lamps in the US at this moment are D&D (Giesmann), ATI, and URI, and I am sure Grim can vouch for this. In which D&D is employed by SLS Tek light, and ATI, well, employed by ATI. Although I have no idea what size fixtures does ATI offer, since it has not yet arrived in the US, from Grim's test it is very promising. So with Tek and ATI representing the "worst" and the "best" of the T5 fixtures with individual reflectors, testing either fixture should be a good benchmark just to get things started.

Furthermore, for selfish reasons I'll vote for Tek light because that's the exact fixture that I am using (6X39W) , but also because ATI is probably not going to be available in the US for some time (despite what the supplier might claim, I have been waiting for it for more than a year, ever since Iwan posted it in Nov 2005). Also, rumor has that it comes with a exceptionally "high" price tag. Fixtures with prices like Aquactinics ($799 for 6X48") and ATI (unknown at this moment), will have a hard time gaining reefers over from MH, which is a proven technology with lots of info available, thanks to you, Sanjay.

Nevertheless, I'd say go with whatever you can get your hands on first, and start from there. You are not going to satisfy everyone here on RC with testing just one fixture, or just one brand of bulbs.

Good luck.