Dinoflagellates.

[DNA]

I've read their structure is not that strong.
Does that mean they break up in the sock letting the carcass and the toxins through?

[bertoni]

Dinoflagellates definitely would break down given enough time. I'm not sure how long that'd take, though. I would clean the filter every day or two if I were dealing with a bad infection and was trying to remove it that way.

[cal_stir]

Originally Posted by DNA

I've read their structure is not that strong.
Does that mean they break up in the sock letting the carcass and the toxins through?

Any samples taken from my socks and put under the microscope showed intact specimens, I never saw any broken down.

[karimwassef]

In an outbreak, they would clog a filter sock very quickly. Daily cleanup would probably be due, depending on flow rate.

[Dfee]

Every day when my lights come on the gravel would be clean. It would take a couple hours for Dino's to show their ugly head. But I just peeked in on the fourth day of a blackout and I can see them in full force!!! How does this make any sense!?!? Can some take a look at my picture I posted 10-20 posts back? I'm 90% sure it's Dino's, I just can't believe what I saw when I just peeked

[bheron]

After reading through this thread here's what I've learned - please take a loko and let me know how I've done :-)

1) Dinos are toxic to other living things.

2) There are different types of Dinos. Getting a sample under a microscope is best way to identify and address them

3) Dinos seem to always be there, the challenge is keeping them in check within your system.

4) With lights off Dinos become suspended in the water column;with lights on the reattach to something?

5) Removing Dinos: can be siphoned; or run skimmer, filter sock, UV with lights off. Or both.

6) Keeping Dinos in balance, it seems, is to use other organic materials? I've read people mention macroalgae, phyto, overfeeding, turning off skimmer as ways to fight or starve or just keep them in check?

What did I get wrong / forget?

[EvMiBo]

Originally Posted by cal_stir

I got amphipod copepod mix from reefs2go
http://www.reefs2go.com/product/INV_...et-1-FREE.html

Live copepods from algaebarn
http://www.algaebarn.com/shop/pf

Pod+ from reefcleaners
http://www.reefcleaners.org/aquarium-store/pods

And I have an order of pods, worms, stars coming from IPSF
http://www.reefcleaners.org/aquarium-store/pods

Phyto culture and micro macro grow from Florida Aqua Farms
http://florida-aqua-farms.com/shop/microalgae-disks/


My micro fauna was decimated from algaex, I originally started my tank with real live rock and had a very diverse system so that is what I am trying to get back to, diversity is the key.
My system turned the corner when I let the system get dirty and started rebuilding my micro fauna, I grow a nice crop of nice green micro algae on the glass in 3 days and am maintaining po4 at 0.025 and no3 at 2ppm.

thanks

[cal_stir]

Originally Posted by Dfee

Every day when my lights come on the gravel would be clean. It would take a couple hours for Dino's to show their ugly head. But I just peeked in on the fourth day of a blackout and I can see them in full force!!! How does this make any sense!?!? Can some take a look at my picture I posted 10-20 posts back? I'm 90% sure it's Dino's, I just can't believe what I saw when I just peeked

Can't make anything out in the pic, can you get a better one with better lighting?
The individual dinos are green but form chains or strands that are brown and snot like usually with air bubbles trapped within, but I have seen them without. They can be blown off with a turkey baster.
Normally when the lights are off they become free swimming in the water column(and they do swim), I believe this is to avoid predation, however there are many types of dinos and you need a microscope to ID them.
I think you need to physically remove them as much as possible, I used 10uM socks on my drains and blew them off the rocks and corals and vacuumed the sand bed and pumped the vacuumed water back into the tank through a 5uM sediment filter. It's tedious 10uM socks can be hard to come by but your LFS should be able to order them.

[Quiet_Ivy]

Originally Posted by Mikefromaz

Blackouts do not deter dinos. You must keep in mind that dinos bevome water column swimmers at night. Night time activities appeal to them so it seems likely dark isn't much of a threat. How many times have I looked at my "clean" sandbed in the early morning thinking I was winning the battle? (Show of hands please) UV sterilizers properly applied, meaning as slow as possible water flow through your unit ifyou have one. Stay AWAY from marine algae killers! They do not discriminate between killing unwanted algae (HA in my case), and the micro critters which are keeping dinos in check by out competing them fir nutrients and/ or eating them? I also dosed with vodka to enhance nitrate removal. Essentially the object is to weaken the dinos as much as possible. As soon as you see signs that it takes longet for dinos to dirty up the glass and sandbed flood the tank with live phytoplankton, pods and whatever your LFS may offer along those lines. If you had a crash caused by marine algae killers repopulating the "good guy" micro plankton after weakening the dinos serms to work. It will also benefit your filter feeders.

I seem to have a toxic variety of dinos. The shrimp showed the same symptoms as my snail population..they slowed down, stopped doing the sexy shrimp 'dance', seemed 'stunned' then died. They were picking at the dinos on the glass. My toadstool might be putting out something that's irritating the frogspawn, it's at 'ground zero' and is the only coral that's covered in dinos.

As for blackouts not working, rats! And dang! And several other words! I don't actually *have* any (other) algae except the ball of Chaeto in my display. (Which isn't growing and actually gets covered in dinos.) Do you think adding the nastiest hair algae infested rock I can find locally would help? I'm serious. I added a cup of dry sand to the back of my display, hoping to get diatoms. Anything to outcompete the dinos. I suspect you and DNA are on to something with the theory about low biodiversity and 'very clean' systems. I started with dry rock and sand too. Infauna kits don't seem to be available in Canada.

I would rather have hair algae. At least it isn't toxic!
ivy

[cal_stir]

Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy

I seem to have a toxic variety of dinos. The shrimp showed the same symptoms as my snail population..they slowed down, stopped doing the sexy shrimp 'dance', seemed 'stunned' then died. They were picking at the dinos on the glass. My toadstool might be putting out something that's irritating the frogspawn, it's at 'ground zero' and is the only coral that's covered in dinos.

As for blackouts not working, rats! And dang! And several other words! I don't actually *have* any (other) algae except the ball of Chaeto in my display. (Which isn't growing and actually gets covered in dinos.) Do you think adding the nastiest hair algae infested rock I can find locally would help? I'm serious. I added a cup of dry sand to the back of my display, hoping to get diatoms. Anything to outcompete the dinos. I suspect you and DNA are on to something with the theory about low biodiversity and 'very clean' systems. I started with dry rock and sand too. Infauna kits don't seem to be available in Canada.

I would rather have hair algae. At least it isn't toxic!
ivy

Diatoms and dinos seem to live off each other, before I went dirty I removed my sand bed and the dinos moved to the glass and rocks but I could blow them off the rocks and not the glass, when I put a sample of what was on the glass under the scope it was 90% diatoms and 10% dinos. I had to clean the glass daily of the brown film, when I went dirty the green micro algae began to take over on the glass and it out competed the diatom/dinos either for space or nutrients(I think it was space), cyano growing on the bottom of the tank out competed it there.
My "turning the corner" was rebuilding my micro fauna with the addition of many different pods, worms, snails, crabs, critters and feeding phytoplankton.

I don't think you want hair algae either.

[Dans85]

If anyone is interested, I just ordered some pods and phytoplankton from algaebarn.com to give it a go. They have a package deal of pods and phyto for $40 shipped.

[cal_stir]

Originally Posted by Dans85

If anyone is interested, I just ordered some pods and phytoplankton from algaebarn.com to give it a go. They have a package deal of pods and phyto for $40 shipped.

Make sure you add your pods in the dark with the filtration off so they get a chance to settle in the rocks.

[Dans85]

Originally Posted by cal_stir

Make sure you add your pods in the dark with the filtration off so they get a chance to settle in the rocks.

Thanks for the tip.

[Dfee]

To me mine seemed more maroon than brown, but the strands were like 4 inches long. They also didn't have many bubbles on them. I'll post more pics later. I bet I just have a combo of the evil bacterias

[Quiet_Ivy]

Originally Posted by cal_stir

Diatoms and dinos seem to live off each other, before I went dirty I removed my sand bed and the dinos moved to the glass and rocks but I could blow them off the rocks and not the glass, when I put a sample of what was on the glass under the scope it was 90% diatoms and 10% dinos. I had to clean the glass daily of the brown film, when I went dirty the green micro algae began to take over on the glass and it out competed the diatom/dinos either for space or nutrients(I think it was space), cyano growing on the bottom of the tank out competed it there.
My "turning the corner" was rebuilding my micro fauna with the addition of many different pods, worms, snails, crabs, critters and feeding phytoplankton.

I need to buy a scope, that's very interesting about diatoms.

I would LOVE to have worms, snails, crabs..however they seem to have been the first victims of dino poisoning. I did see my brittle starfish this morning, yay!

Is the location in your .sig accurate? I checked the companies you ordered from, and none of them will ship to Canadia. My LFS does have pod cultures, (tisbe/tigriops) but their opinion is that despite being advertised as benthic, most won't survive in our tanks. I think they have phyto and rotifers.

I don't think you want hair algae either.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind it. It isn't pretty but it supports a huge array of critters. I have no ambition to run anything TOTM-worthy. I was trying to create a lagoon type lps tank; the fact that my nutrients are undetectable is actually quite a surprise. I'm extremely interested in microfauna and invertebrates.

Next week's things to try: feed phytoplankton! Increase oyster feast and maybe stop rinsing the frozen mysis. No water changes. Leave the sandbed alone.

ivy
Today's water tests: Alk 8.3, Ca 380 (? testing error, not a fan of the salifert Ca test. Big weekly drop otherwise), Nitrates undetectable

[cal_stir]

Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy

Is the location in your .sig accurate? I checked the companies you ordered from, and none of them will ship to Canadia.

Yes, I live 15 minutes from Port Huron, Michigan. I get the stuff shipped to a parcel depot there and go over and pick it up. There is very little available here in Canada.

[Dfee]

Here's another pic, especially where it looks just like cyano except what you can't see in the picture is a 4 inch long strand coming from it. Long strands come from the coral too. Cyano never has strands right?

Also, aren't you worried that the Dino will immediately kill the plankton and pods? I thought those were the first to go during a Dino outbreak. I'd like to add all those smaller life forms but was worried they wouldn't last

[cal_stir]

Originally Posted by Dfee

Here's another pic, especially where it looks just like cyano except what you can't see in the picture is a 4 inch long strand coming from it. Long strands come from the coral too. Cyano never has strands right?

Also, aren't you worried that the Dino will immediately kill the plankton and pods? I thought those were the first to go during a Dino outbreak. I'd like to add all those smaller life forms but was worried they wouldn't last

I've only seen cyano mat, looks more like dinos than cyano.
If you get methods in place to remove it like 10uM filter socks and a UV sterilizer and run some carbon, blow it off the rocks and corals daily and vacuum the sand through a filter sock and put the water back in the tank to keep the dino numbers down you should be able to add plankton.
I did all those things, then removed my sand bed, turned off my skimmer, stopped running po4 binder, carbon and UV for about 3 weeks and let the water dirty up till I was on the verge of hair algae and had green micro algae growing on the glass then I added the plankton.
My dinos were triggered from using algaex algae killer that decimated my micro fauna but there must be other triggers, however the dinos can kill the micro fauna so you end up in the same boat.

[mathman7728]

aaaaa

[DNA]

Ivy it looks like dinos in your pictures.

It's possible that the organism that survive the initial increase in toxicity will develop a tolerance.
This is well known for slow human poisonings. The organisms living with palythoa are another example.

---

Dfee. Strands can be all dinos, dinos govered with cyano or cyano alone.
Cyano strands being the thinnest and shorter.

There are endless parameters to dinos and once you think you nailed some facts, dinos will act in another way next time. I used to have strands and bubbles, but I rarely see them now.

[ReyR]

Cal_stir, can you go over the process you you went by to change your sand out. Thinking of doing this. Did you do all at once or only a little at a time?

[cal_stir]

Originally Posted by ReyR

Cal_stir, can you go over the process you you went by to change your sand out. Thinking of doing this. Did you do all at once or only a little at a time?

I did it over a 2 week period, about 15% every other day and I dosed supplemental bacteria after each time.

[ReyR]

Originally Posted by cal_stir

I did it over a 2 week period, about 15% every other day and I dosed supplemental bacteria after each time.

Was thinking of using shoppe vac. I only have a simple siphon for water changes. Has kind of a strainer on it to prevent lots of sand from getting sucked up.

[cal_stir]

Originally Posted by ReyR

Was thinking of using shoppe vac. I only have a simple siphon for water changes. Has kind of a strainer on it to prevent lots of sand from getting sucked up.

I siphoned it out with a piece of 1/2" hose, I discarded the sand in case it had cysts in it. I filtered the water and put it back in as water changes seem to fuel the dinos.

[ReyR]

Originally Posted by cal_stir

I siphoned it out with a piece of 1/2" hose, I discarded the sand in case it had cysts in it. I filtered the water and put it back in as water changes seem to fuel the dinos.

What kind of filter did you use?