Duplex sump concept

[Redstratplayer]

R. shimek on export

The article talks about using Skimmate caulerpa and Xenia
as ways of export.

[Driftwood]

Tekcat: I removed the rubble from the crash chamber and put it on top of the eggcrate. It no longer accumulates junk there. When I pulled it out of the crash chamber it was nasty...

Dave

[TekCat]

Thanks Dave, last night I cleaned out mine fuge from rubble, .... nasty is totaly underestimated term I am going to the home depot for some eggcrate. Question, how deep rock rubble layer needs to be on top of eggcrate? Here is my dillema, less rubble - less pods, more rubble - more detrius collected.

[Driftwood]

I put in enough to cover the eggcrate and block a good part of the direct light. I have mysid shrimp that live in my sump and they are all over the place swimming around in the eggcrate, LR , and chaeto. The junk in the crash chamber seems to be getting in to the skimmer better now.

Good luck!
Dave

[perpetual98]

Send me a couple mysid shrimp. lol

I've got lots of tiny pods, but haven't seen any mysid running around. I miss the little guys, there were some of the easier to see critters and I like the way that their eyes glow at night when I hunt them with the flashlight.

[cilyjr]

I had been been thinking about Mr. Tyree's ideas on a no light very low flow “Cryptic� zone and have wanted to employ one for some time. I have very limited space because 100% of my system must be hidden in the cabinet of my 46gallon display tank. The sump/fuge I have is an AGA 20 long. I chose this because it gave me the most room for the footprint. I have found some creative ways to use the space I have.



Since a large cryptic zone was out of the question for me I began thinking bout ways to employ some of the ideas. My first thought was to remove the top piece of egg crate and place PVC pipe side by side with small gaps to act in a similar manner as the egg crate shelf (I believe this idea to still have some merit) but I decided that 1’ PVC pipe would make the top zone too shallow or would take too much from the benthic zone. I will put this idea on hold for a future sump. My second was for a single 2inch piece of PVC. I was going pump water in using the return on my skimmer. I decided I didn’t like this idea for a few reasons. First being I had a hard time seeing the zone populating well with freshly skimmed water. Second the flow is very fast. Third I didn’t like the idea of using the PVC as once I sealed it I would not be able to look at what is colonizing inside without destroying it; my main purpose for doing all of this is experimentation. While browsing the isles at Lowes I came across this piece in the electrical area (see photo) since it has a removable piece held on with screws (I bought plastic screws to replace the metal ones) it would be easy to open it and see what is colonizing.



My next step was to find a way to allow water to be pushed through; I didn’t want it to be passive. The skimmer was out of the question so I decided to use the return pump. My return has a t valve allowing a portion of water to return to the sump to regulate flow in the display as I am sure many people do. I had not thought of using this at first because I do have UV attached to this line (how am I going to populate anything post UV) but I have not had the UV light plugged in for months. This also makes it the final zone water circulates through in the sump. Although the cryptic zone box is located in the first chamber of my sump, the water is coming from the pump that returns water to the display. I realize that the water makes a second trip through benthic area but I see no harm in that. I next purchased some Live Rock rubble, filled the electrical box with it, and sealed it up.



The rock will give the zone colonization a jumpstart and will be a place for animals to anchor. Now with the rubble sealed in, no light passes through the chamber. I checked by shining a flashlight in one side in a dark room. It is time hook it up. I used vinyl tubing and some barbed fittings. When I hooked it up I decided that the water flow was too strong to combat this I put holes in the tube which I may replace with a valve later. It is up and running.



I realize due to the size of the cryptic that any real benefits in water quality will most likely be negligible; I am interested to see what life will colonize there. My plan is to open it every 6 months.

Thanks for reading this. Please feel free to comment or criticize, I welcome both

[Redstratplayer]

cilyjr looks good.

By what i have read it would be better if you cut egg crate to fill up about half of it and Lr ruble in the other half.

[cilyjr]

the rock rubble is filling 'bout half the "zone" the pic looks like more

[Indermark]

I have been running my 75 gallon tank since Feb using the Duplex sump concept. I must say that the amount of feather dusters big and small is amazing I wish I could share pictures But my camera sucks. I have two rocks that are just covered with small feather dusters and sponges. There is not a space in the sump where there is not a sponge growing. It really is amazing how much life you can get with out light. Currently I think i might get some lighting and start growing some cheato. In hopes it might do something more for my tank.

[mr.wilson]

If you have a shallow growing area, and don't let it "ball-up", you should grow caulerpa instead. It grows much faster than chaeto, and it won't crash like it does in deep (shadowed) refugia.

Good to hear you're enjoying the dark side of your aquarium. They really pop up out of nowhere once you give them a space to grow. "Build it, and they will come".

[HBtank]

Here's my new addition



Can't wait until some months pass. Lots of interesting areas...

[Indermark]

Originally posted by mr.wilson
If you have a shallow growing area, and don't let it "ball-up", you should grow caulerpa instead. It grows much faster than chaeto, and it won't crash like it does in deep (shadowed) refugia.

I thought that if caulerpa was not on a 24 hour light cycle it would eventually turn sexual.? I wanted to do chaeto because it does not attach to live rock, correct and does not turn sexual. I do have some caulerpa in my display that came with a colony of zoas I purchased. Furthermore, I was looking at my sump some more last night and noticed I have lime green sponges as well along with one bright red one (fire sponge? ) I'm gonna see if my sisters computer will run the program for my camera.

My nitrates are 1 PPM but I only have 3 fish and a shrimp in my tank. My nitrates were at 40ppm after I cycled my tank with uncured live rock from a LFS in Saint Louis. To my suprise it went down by itself to its current level.

Ryan

[mr.wilson]

Originally posted by Indermark
I thought that if caulerpa was not on a 24 hour light cycle it would eventually turn sexual.? I wanted to do chaeto because it does not attach to live rock, correct and does not turn sexual. I do have some caulerpa in my display that came with a colony of zoas I purchased. Furthermore, I was looking at my sump some more last night and noticed I have lime green sponges as well along with one bright red one (fire sponge? ) I'm gonna see if my sisters computer will run the program for my camera.

My nitrates are 1 PPM but I only have 3 fish and a shrimp in my tank. My nitrates were at 40ppm after I cycled my tank with uncured live rock from a LFS in Saint Louis. To my suprise it went down by itself to its current level.

Ryan

Chaeto is good if you want an algae that won't get sucked into pumps or spread throughout the sump. The down side is it's a slow grower, and it traps detritus. It also tends to grow in a large ball, with the areas exposed to light flourishing, while the greater shadowed area slowly dies off. The die off often goes unnoticed as the bound nitrate and and phosphate is returned to the system.

Algae will not grow well in a 24 hour photoperiod. Photosynthesis requires a six hour period of darkness for proper respiration. A 16 hour photoperiod will not lead to seasonal cues (shorter days) that cause algae to reproduce.

Allowing caulerpa to overgrow the space to the point of shadowing itself is the most common environmental cue (stress) for sexual reproduction. A shallow tray of caulerpa will grow quickly, remove more organics, will not crash (sexually reproduce), and will not trap detritus. Caulerpa is also more useful, as it's a food source for the fish in the display tank.

[Indermark]

Thanks, for the info. I might try caulerpa first because I have some all ready that arrived for free. What exactly do you use for a shallow tray? I'm just trying to get an idea on how to house this algae.

I took some pictures of my sump last night and I cannot get any good pics of the bigger feather dusters that have popped up near the back of the tank. I'll see if I can get what I have posted.

[mr.wilson]

The "shallow tray" I'm referring to is the top level of the Duplex filtration system. You can extend the eggcrate to keep the caulerpa from drifting into the rest of the sump.

At first I was using a plastic mesh, over the eggcrate, below the algae. I now use live rock rubble over the eggcrate with no mesh. The mesh didn't allow detritus to settle to the lower benthic zone where it can be reduced by detrivores.

You will be able to harvest the caulerpa weekly, rather than monthly, as with chaeto. In addition to the excess nutrient uptake (DOC), the caulerpa also acts as a mechanical filter, exporting detritus (POC) as well.

Zooplankton seems to grow better in caulerpa than it does in chaeto. Some varieties such as C. Prolifera have anti-bacterial properties that can aid in fish & coral health.

[nanokeeper]

mr.wilson - I really want to thank you for your contribution to the marine aquarium hobby. I watched your video on this sump design and read this thread. After researching this subject even more I've decided to incorporate this design into my upcoming 90 gallon build. I remember the first reef tank that I setup years ago (only 10 gallons) was full of sponges and tunicates. Now I know why that tank was so successful.

Please keep us updated as you learn more about this topic. Thanks again.

[dendro982]

My 5g Duplex refugium in progress:
Feb 06_06 - nice and clean, a lot of foraminiferans and sponges was added:

Chaeto is not blocking outflow, it only seems so, the tubing is behind.
4 months later, cleaned in between, of course, but a lot of debris and chaeto fragments go under the eggcrate:


Flow is along the diagonal of the tank - from far to close to the sump. The thick tubing is outflow:

160 gph for 5g. Red cyano flourishes on the top of chaeto.

A couple of months ago started to supply this refugium by skimmed water, all the same. Skimmer is oversized for 90g (ASM G-3), main tank is heavily fed 3 times daily, nitrates within 40 ppm, phosphates (before phosphate remover) max 0.5 ppm, no ammonia or nitrites. Light for this refugium is 27W CFL 6,500K.

More details:
LR rubble sheds a lot even without feeding the refugium, dead pieces of chaeto almost impossible to siphon out through the eggcrate:


Red cyano:


Acoel worms and red cyano on the top of this chaeto:


What am I doing wrong?

Refugium, supplied by skimmed water should be clean, in my dreams, may be
The layer of chaeto is not so thick to die from the lack of light...

Thanks.

[mr.wilson]

The chaetomorpha is the source of your detritus. It grows well at the surface, but the lower (shadowed) regions have a constant die-off.

Chaeto is also more condusive to breaking off into a small thallus when growing conditions (light) is limited. These small "braches" slowly decompose when trapped in the dark benthic zone.

I would switch to a caulerpa. It won't crash or slowly die-off as long as you continue to harvest it, keep an 18 hour (summer) photoperiod, and don't allow it to ball-up.

A fine mesh would stop the detritus from migrating down to the benthic zone, but the benefit of allowing it to filter through is that you can monitor it's removal, or lack there of. Standard refugia have quite a bit of detritus under the macroalgae but it's out of sight and out of mind, swept under the carpet. The benthic zone is more like hardwood flooring than a carpet. Every bit of dirt is there to see, so you have to do something about it.

Fan (tube) and bristle worms will remove the unavoidable detritus. predatory starfish like chocolate chips and green (fish eating) serpent stars will also do a great job of cleaning up. Reef-safe inverts are never as voracious at removing detritus as "bad guys". Aggressive hermits and other crabs are also useful.

The cyanobacteria will go away once the caulerpa starts to grow well (oxygenation). I use those same bulbs. The price is right, they run cool, they're compact, easy to replace, and give good growth, but they do tend to encourage red slime algae growth. You could add a small powerhead to direct water across the surface until it goes away.

[dendro982]

Thank you, Mr. Wilson! Will do that.

The only there will be problem with 18 hrs light - the light will leak to the main tank, refugium and sump are free standing, at the side. Building enclosure will restrict ventilation, adding fan adds noise...

Could be there other solutions, to keep things simple?

Sorry, I'm not wanting too much, just trying to keep this approach to reefkeeping in general, just like some prefer MH sps tanks or cold water tanks.

[mr.wilson]

An 18 hour photoperiod uses the maximum amount of daylight hours with the minimum amount of respiratory dark period. This doesn't mean you can't have an 8 or 12 hour day. It's consistency that matters.

Seasonal changes are cues for caulerpa to reproduce. Changes in photoperiod will simulate the shorter days of winter and cause it to go to seed.

I would go with 12 hours if you can get away with it. It sounds like a reverse photoperiod isn't possible in your case. Do you experience significant PH drops at night?

[dendro982]

I can do 13 hrs, it will be like dusk and dawn for a fish, and shall watch for a signs of caulerpa, starting to reproduce.

Really can't say about pH drops at the night, the pH tests I tried show contradictory results, so I can't rely on them at all (Hanna pH probe, Seachem Marine Basic, API, Nutrafin).

Anyway, the amount of algae is not so big, the maximum ever was ball of chaeto 3 gal size for 90f tank, now much less because of the constant discarding the top, covered with red cyano. Fish is not visibly bothered, corals (LPS and softies) too.

Thank you very much for the advice on keeping refugium clean, really appreciate this. I thought, that the battle was already lost.

BTW, grape caulerpa replaced the chaeto today, with added aeration. Hope, that everything will be better.

[ScottL4619]

I'm not sure if anyone is still monitoring this thread, but I have a quick question for anyone who is knowledgeable on Caulerpa. I first got some of this macro last week and prior to putting in my refuge, I did some research. I found the consensus to be lighting it 24/7. I would like to switch it to 18 on and 6 off as mentioned above with the 6 hours off right in the middle of high noon so to speak on my display tank lights. So, the question is: should I just drop from 24 on to 18 on, or change 1 hour per day/week? I am shortening the light cycle either way, and I know this can cause the caulerpa to think it is winter and go assexual. Any suggestions? My thought is to jump to 18 hours as a gradual change in light would probably signal changing seasons more so than a big jump.

[drinkhomebrew]

Is anyone still using this system? Anyone see any noteable long term results?

[mr.wilson]

Originally posted by ScottL4619
I'm not sure if anyone is still monitoring this thread, but I have a quick question for anyone who is knowledgeable on Caulerpa. I first got some of this macro last week and prior to putting in my refuge, I did some research. I found the consensus to be lighting it 24/7. I would like to switch it to 18 on and 6 off as mentioned above with the 6 hours off right in the middle of high noon so to speak on my display tank lights. So, the question is: should I just drop from 24 on to 18 on, or change 1 hour per day/week? I am shortening the light cycle either way, and I know this can cause the caulerpa to think it is winter and go assexual. Any suggestions? My thought is to jump to 18 hours as a gradual change in light would probably signal changing seasons more so than a big jump.

I think you could change it right away in one shot. A 24/7 photo-period gives the algae no schedule to start of with, so a change will not be measured as a season change. A gradual change will simulate a shortening season, but if it's only a few days, it will be just like a cloudy day.

The algae grown with a 24/7 photo-period has a constant die-off, so it doesn't need to crash as it ages. You get the same problems experienced with crashes. The first-in-first-out method suggested here assures that the algae culture stays young and healthy. Older algae from the bottom of the clump is collected to remove more bound nutrients and make room for new growth.

The important thing here is you need to adapt the way you keep the algae. You need to assure that the algae grows in shallow clumps, with little shadowing of the lower, older portions. You can achieve this by keeping up with weekly harvesting, or you can use the method I suggest in this thread, so the algae has no way of overgrowing itself.

[mr.wilson]

Originally posted by drinkhomebrew
Is anyone still using this system? Anyone see any noteable long term results?

It's hard to measure success in a reef tank, and even harder to attribute the source.

When a company is selling a product, or an end user is trying to justify the expense of buying one, they are quick to report success rates. I can report good success with this method, but I have also had similar success with other methods. I'm confident in recommending it.

I treat the method as a system, rather than one component. As mentioned previously in the thread, there are many aspects to the system.

1) Proper flow dynamics.

2) Right-sized flow from sump to display tank and back.

3) Zoned areas where biological filtration of various forms can be carried out to assimilate and dissimilate organics as in nature without residual nitrate.

4) A means of nutrient production.

5) A means of nutrient export.

6) Chemical filtration.

7) Preservation of probiotics and parameter stability through the exclusion of water changes.

I will post new pictures of the 220 gallon tank shown earlier in the thread in a few days.