Potential problem with Instant Ocean

[DarG]

I posted in a thread a few days ago in which I stated that I has used Instant Ocean for years and years. I was asked by another member what I found the Instant Ocean to test at. I hadnt tested it in years but I think I recalled it testing a bit low for mag, with ok alk and reasonable calcium.

Well, I grabbed another 50 gallon bag of it at the LFS yesterday because it was still on sale. I figured I would test it. I mixed up a gallon and put a power head in it and tested it after a couple of hours. The levels for mag and calcium were VERY high. I mixed up another gallon and put a power head in it and left both samples overnight. Tested again this am. SG was 1.024 and both samples tested at near 700 ppm for calcium and over 1500 for mag. I use a Salifert mag kit and both a new Seachem Reef status calcium as well as a Salifert calcium. Both calcium kits tested within 10 ppm of each other at just under 700 ppm for calcium on both samples (about 680 and 690 ppm). The magnesium I didnt bother going beyond one syringe of the reagent which is 1500 ppm so the mag for both samples was somewhere aboe 1500 ppm.

I should also mention that neither sample was clear. Power heads ran for 15 hours or more overnight and still both smaple of the IO mix were a bit cloudy.

Alk tested at 2.7 meg/L with PH at 8.2 - 8.3

I use 0 TDS RO/DI water.

Last week I had found my calcium in my tank to be a bit lower than I like. I was working on raising it and it was testing at about 380 ppm. I tested it a day or two after doing a water change with a mix of IO and Red Sea .... probably 80% IO and 20% red sea. It was up to 430 ppm after the 20% water change. I dont know if this was because the last batch of IO I had purchased about a week before and used in the water change (mixed with the small amount of Red Sea that was left in the salt bucket) was also very high in calcium. Or, because i was working in raising the calcium. But I suspect that the water change had a signifigant impact in my calcium level making a jump in the tank.

My concern is that of QC. If these high a levels of mag and calcium are getting through in batched of the instant ocean, I personally am concerned that QC is qustionable and am wondering what else may be missed.

Just a heads up. Not saying that IO is bad in general, just that I got atleast one 50 gallon bag that is very high in calcium and very possibly magnesium.

Any thoughts or similiar experience with IO recently?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've not heard of anyone else getting numbers like these.

Mixing a gallon at a time is not a good idea, IMO, as you made and tested only 1/50th of a bag, and it could easily have sorted itself a bit during manufacturing and shipping. Different size and density and shapes of solids will settle to the bottom or rise to the top, etc.

[DarG]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
I've not heard of anyone else getting numbers like these.

Mixing a gallon at a time is not a good idea, IMO, as you made and tested only 1/50th of a bag, and it could easily have sorted itself a bit during manufacturing and shipping. Different size and density and shapes of solids will settle to the bottom or rise to the top, etc.

Yes, and I thought about that and I always shake the bag or bucket up before testing. I always have and NEVER have gotten results like this. Not expecting these results I mixed the bag in with the bucket of IO that I already had. Actually it was a mix of IO and Red Sea in the bucket already, probably 80% IO and 20% Red Sea. So I dont have any of the salt in question on its own to test again. I imagine I could make sure I mix up the bucket of blended salts very well and if the new IO is indeed that high in calcium, I should still see a very high calcium level even in the mix. But again, I have done this in the past. It's been a while since I tested a sample of salt I just bought but I just shake up the bag or bucket real well and test. I have always gotten reasonable test results. (I am having a hard time believing that that much calcium and mag all stayed in one spot in the salt mix (especially after shaking up the bag).

I will test a sample of the mixture from the bucket and see if it's still higher than would be expected. But I am convince that something is off with this batch.

I wish I didnt mix the salts before knowing the test results.

[Billybeau1]

I suspect you are having test kit problems.

Seachems Calcium kit consistently reads about 70 ppm lower for me than any other brand kit. So if you are telling me your Seachem and Salifert were close, one of them is bad.

Instant Ocean has been the most consistent salt on the market for quite some time now. Usually, we would start hearing things if a salt all of a sudden went wacko. Like we did with Reef Crystals last year.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but you would be the first that I've heard of if the salt is really contaminated.

Those numbers you are getting are just unheard of for Instant Ocean.

[DarG]

Originally posted by Billybeau1
I suspect you are having test kit problems.

Seachems Calcium kit consistently reads about 70 ppm lower for me than any other brand kit. So if you are telling me your Seachem and Salifert were close, one of them is bad.

Instant Ocean has been the most consistent salt on the market for quite some time now. Usually, we would start hearing things if a salt all of a sudden went wacko. Like we did with Reef Crystals last year.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but you would be the first that I've heard of if the salt is really contaminated.

Those numbers you are getting are just unheard of for Instant Ocean.

Sorry to diagree with you but I have two salifert kits and the Seachem reef status and they all read within 10ppm. I highly doubt that I have 3 bad kits. If my readings are off, it is far more likely that Randy Holmes farleys assumptions are what is going on. My tank water reads in the 420 - 430 range with all 3 kits. I dont see how I have 3 bad test kits reading 680 - 690 ppm with the salt mix but 420 on my tank water with my supplementation scheme. You may have an issue with your particular Seachem kit. Have you tried the reference solution test?

Ill know more when I mix the salt really well in the bucket containing the older and new salts. The calcium shouldnt be as high as 680 but it will still be unusally high if it is the new salt itself and not Randy Holmes Farleys suggestion. It was also off that the test water never cleared, it remained cloudy after 15 hours. It was definitely NOT the test kits.

[Billybeau1]

Well, You could mix the two highest calcium salts I know of and still not get over 600 ppm unless you are way overshooting your specific gravity. Mixing the bucket or not mixing the bucket.

As far as the Seachem calcium test kit, I have proved time and time again that the kit is off, regardless of what the reference solution says. Any company can match their reference solution to match their test kit. Doesn't make it right.

I'm not sure yet what is going on with your situation , but, I can assure you, we will get to the bottom of it if you keep feeding us information.

This isn't my first rodeo.



And never say "definitely not" in this hobby.

[DarG]

Randy got to the bottom of it already, thanks. I mixed the new salt in the bucket with the old salt which had about 50 gallons of IO and maybe 20 gallons or so of Red Sea. I mixed them all up very well. Made another gallon sample and calcium is 390ppm with the salifert, 385 with the seachem reef status. Mag was right at 1270 and alk was right about 3.1 meg/l. SG was a litle above 1.024. This was with a sample that was only agitated with a powerhead for less than an hour but I suspect the results would be atleast similiar in the morning.

Billbeau1 ... I appreciate your input, I really do. With your seachem kit, Try filling the little red distilled water vial ALL the way. In other words, so that the water looks like it is actually about to spill over. Not just level with the top. If you already do so, and/or if the kit still measures incorrectly, you may just have a problem kit. My Seachem kit measures in line with TWO salifert kits. I also have a Lamotte kit (which I dont really like because I have a hard time seeing color change for some reason, I have to use natural light to perceive it correctly). Anyway, the Lamotte kit also measures in line with the saliferts and thus the Reef Staus kits. MY seachem kit is reliable. I do not have 2 bad salifert kits as well as a bad lamotte that all happen to read 70 ppm low along with the Seachem kit. I think the results I got above pretty much confirm the relative accuracy of the Seachem kit and the Salifert.

Regardless ... thank you Randy. You must have been correct that some of the calcium and mag additives settled in the bag and despite my shaking the bag, it obviously wasnt enough to mix the salt well enough. As usual, you are the man

Thanks to both of you and sorry if anyone was alarmed. I was just looking for answers not trying to worry anyone.

[Billybeau1]

Well Dar, I'm glad Randy squared it away for you. He is da man, no doubt.

I won't preach on the Seachem subject anymore other than to tell you I tried 3 different kits (sadly over 20 bucks a pop) to try and debunk my results, but sadly, they all read then same.

Somewhere here is a thread where I tested a number of calcium kits and they all tested close to the same except for Seachem. I don't know what else I can do. I do know how to read instructions for test kits. Been doing it for awhile now.

If you are getting good results, I'm happy for you.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

thank you Randy. You must have been correct that some of the calcium and mag additives settled in the bag and despite my shaking the bag, it obviously wasnt enough to mix the salt well enough. As usual, you are the man



Thanks.

FWIW, shaking the bag might actually cause the particles to sort themselves, as opposed to mixing them. Trying to mix different densities of particles into a homogeneous dry mix is a rather challenging one that engineers making things like salt mixes have to frequently worry about.

[DarG]

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
thank you Randy. You must have been correct that some of the calcium and mag additives settled in the bag and despite my shaking the bag, it obviously wasnt enough to mix the salt well enough. As usual, you are the man



Thanks.

FWIW, shaking the bag might actually cause the particles to sort themselves, as opposed to mixing them. Trying to mix different densities of particles into a homogeneous dry mix is a rather challenging one that engineers making things like salt mixes have to frequently worry about.

I rolled the bucket around the house ... looking like an idiot
Does that count as shaking or mixing ...

Rhetorical question, I dont need an answer

[DarG]

Originally posted by Billybeau1
Well Dar, I'm glad Randy squared it away for you. He is da man, no doubt.

I won't preach on the Seachem subject anymore other than to tell you I tried 3 different kits (sadly over 20 bucks a pop) to try and debunk my results, but sadly, they all read then same.

Somewhere here is a thread where I tested a number of calcium kits and they all tested close to the same except for Seachem. I don't know what else I can do. I do know how to read instructions for test kits. Been doing it for awhile now.

If you are getting good results, I'm happy for you.

Salifert reportedly had a bad run of alkalinity test kits a while back. Is it not possible that Seachem also had a questionable run of calcium kits at the time you bought those for testing?

I had a salifert alk. kit at the time when the salifert kits were in question. I bought a Lamotte kit to make sure I was getting accurate results. The Lamotte and Salifert kits measured very close to each other.

I have no doubt that you had 3 inaccurate seachem calcium test kits if you say that you had 3 innaccurate seachem kits. But is it all that impossible that the Seachem reef status calcium kit that I have is actually accurate ...

I dont want to beat a dead horse here either but c'mon. My Seachem kit is consistently measuring in line of both my two Salifert kits and a Lamotte calcium test kit. I am not a reef chemistry guy but I have been in the hobby for 30 plus years and I too can read the instructions and carry out the test procedure for testing my water parameters. I have no reason to lie about the Seachem kits results. And I was actually getting results that were off (not 70ppm off but off some) with the Seachem kit when I didnt fill the distilled water vial ALL the way so that the water was actually "over" the top of the vial. I just offered it as a suggestion. Not to doubt our ability to run a test. Im freely admitting that I wasnt sure if "fill all the way" meant all the way level or as much as it would possibly hold without spilling out. Once I filled it so the water was actually forming that convex meniscus over the top edge, the results were accurate with the salifert and Lamotte kits. It was only a suggestion. Again, I dont doubt that you had trouble with your Seachem kits. Mine happens to be very reliable.

Regardless, I appreciate your input on all this.

Happy Halloween

[Billybeau1]

Happy Halloween to you.

I also play guitar and I love da blues.

[Zegg]

Originally posted by Billybeau1
Usually, we would start hearing things if a salt all of a sudden went wacko. Like we did with Reef Crystals last year.

Not just last year just picked up 2 buckets yesterday or reef crystals... was going to nake a switch from NSW to Reef Crystals... tested calcium lvls with API and Safilert tests multiple times coming up with 280-300ppm mixed into RO/DI water. The NSW I have on hand tests at 380-400ppm calcium. Bought it from a place where you would iimagine they would have gone through all the bad buckets but obviously there are still some out there.

[Billybeau1]

Zegg, What did you mix your s.g. at and how did you measure ?

[Zegg]

1.026 refractometer calibrated with pinpoint salinty solution. Just received the refractometer and calibrated it prior to testing, didnt really need much adjusting though. 77-78 degrees to make sure it matches my tanks salinity/temp.

The outcome still seems very low compared to the bad batches from almost a year ago... my test kits might not be perfect but when compared to the NSW that hasnt made it to the tank yet read 380-400 I would imagine they are atleast suffecient enough to tell me I have pretty low levels... I havnt tested the 2nd bucket yet.

Probably mention I split the bucket in 1/2's stirred andmixed throughly both halves then pured back and forth with the halves and repeated the process a couple times to throughly mix the bucket....

I only made 5gal of water to test

[Zegg]

Well checked Alk just cause I was curious

New Bucket 5-6dkh
NSW measures at 9dkh
Tank (which I dose alk/calc) 10-11dkh

[Billybeau1]

What brand Alk kit ?

[Zegg]

Originally posted by Billybeau1
What brand Alk kit ?

API, I know its not the best but a new jug of NSW from the LFS(fresh NSW... not the bottled and sitting on the shelf for who knows how long stuff) is testing at 9dkh so again my assumption is that my test kit is still working atleast good enough for my purposes.

[Zegg]

Okay here are my findings so far from 2 buckets of Reef Crystals I purchased 10/31/2008

The main reason why I really wanted to show this is that eaither the Bucket 1 wasnt mixed well, or was an old bucket still need to test makeup water everytime. I would have made up 40 gallons at a time which might yeild better results on the "bad" bucket but I dont want to use up 1/3 of the bucket and say "i got a bad bucket can i exchange/get it replaced please, after using 1/3 of it."

I only measured Salinty, Alk, and Calcium Levels. All tests done with API and for calcium I also used Salifert test kit. I feel if alk/calcium arnt up to par/near what they advertise using RO/DI water theres no reason to waste testing/money on anything else, such as mag. My testing wasnt to figure out how much i need to dose but to find out if I somehow got a bad bucket.. still.

I mixed each bucket up very well, and mixed 5 gallons worth of saltwater from each bucket.

NSW I hav been using - 1.026. Alk 9dkh. Calcium 380-400 this has been very consistant over the past 2 years of using NSW

Reef Crystals Bucket #1
Salinty 1.026
Alk - 5-6dkh (tested 4 times)
Calcium - 280-300(highest I got on either test kit was 300(tested 3 times with each test kit)

Reef Crystals Bucket #2
Salinty 1.026
Alk - 12dkh (tested twice)
Calcium - 400-420 (Salifert tested twice both at 400 and API tested twice and both times were 420)

[Billybeau1]

Bucket #2 is more like the RC I know.

I would sent #1 back for a refund or exchange.

Although I have never seen a bucket that bad, something must have happened.

[Zegg]

Didnt even think of it til this moment. The lid was a little loose and was easily opened up by hand, so moisture might have gotten into the bucket and the mix was not evenly distributed witihin the bucket or something.

[Zegg]

Well its good to know they have lot numbers on their buckets of salt now.

[Zegg]

Well after looking at lot numbers both buckets matched so it seemed very odd that 2 buckets from the same lot were so far off from eachother... I decided to make another batch of saltwater from Bucket #1(the one testing low) before sending out a sample for Aquarium Systems to check out.

Well this batch of saltwater I made is testing the sae as the good bucket... they are both good!!! that bucket must have settled from shipping and possibly extra moisture the mixing didnt take place very well on my end.

By the way the only thing i ever see about Lot numbers is there are none on Reef Crystals, I might have missed it somewhere but wanted to note the Lot # is located on the little pricetag sticker where the handle attaches to the bucket.

[DarG]

Originally posted by Zegg
Well after looking at lot numbers both buckets matched so it seemed very odd that 2 buckets from the same lot were so far off from eachother... I decided to make another batch of saltwater from Bucket #1(the one testing low) before sending out a sample for Aquarium Systems to check out.

Well this batch of saltwater I made is testing the sae as the good bucket... they are both good!!! that bucket must have settled from shipping and possibly extra moisture the mixing didnt take place very well on my end.

By the way the only thing i ever see about Lot numbers is there are none on Reef Crystals, I might have missed it somewhere but wanted to note the Lot # is located on the little pricetag sticker where the handle attaches to the bucket.

Still learning new things about basics after 30 years in this hobby. I have tested salt before, many times, and never mixed the bag or bucket and always got results that were within the range of expected. This was the first time that I tested a batch of salt and gotten the off results that I got. Mixing the salt thoroughly proved that it was my error, not the salt. But it makes me wonder if I just got lucky before with never getting results that were out of the ordinary ... or, if the companies making the salts are actually not mixing the components as thoroughly as they once did. As far as making up water for water changes ... I have always just scooped the required amount of salt out of the bucket or bag and dumped it in the water and let it agitate. Never worried about mixing the salt itself up real well before scooping it out. I guess Ill be rolling 50 pound buckets around the house from now on when I buy a new bucket of salt just to make sure the components are well mixed.

[Zegg]

If your going to roll it around, make sure to chekc the lid first!!, mine was loose enbough it most likely would have fallen off while rolling it.