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Old 04/11/2006, 04:11 PM   #1
Fcwham
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People eaters = Zoanthus gigantus

A new paper came out this month in Zoological Science which revised the taxonomy of Zoanthus Species.

Many have been saying that people eaters are protopalythoa I have said they are Zoanthus for years but now finaly there is genetic data that places them in the genus Zoanthus.

if anyone is interested I can give more info, I know this has been a hot topic in the past on this forum


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Old 04/11/2006, 04:55 PM   #2
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I'd be interested in seeing it. Every article I've seen has all large polyped species (once listed as palythoa) listed as protopalythoa. Does that mean that there is no such thing as protopalythoa, then?


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Old 04/11/2006, 04:55 PM   #3
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I would like for you to share this info......Let me know whats the new data....


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Old 04/11/2006, 05:46 PM   #4
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i beleive i saw something about the renaming of the zoanthid taxonomy in the reefkeeping magazine, or advanced aquariust magazine.

i know they said the system was long over due for an overhaul.

please post the link, or the text to the actual research publication


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Old 04/11/2006, 06:48 PM   #5
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Here

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/snn/index.php


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Old 04/11/2006, 07:11 PM   #6
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Great article!

I wonder what kind of implications this has for us hobbyists?


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Old 04/11/2006, 07:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Reef Junkie
Great article!

I wonder what kind of implications this has for us hobbyists?
the price of a protopaly will go down, b/c they are of the same species and not so "rare" after all!!!


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Old 04/11/2006, 08:03 PM   #8
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lol surf

I doubt the prices will change, but I am happy that the Palythoa/protopalythoa nazi's have been dealt a fatal blow!


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Old 04/11/2006, 08:11 PM   #9
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I can not send a link to the publication which I posted about you all would just get a screen asking you to buy the articul because you are not subscribed to the research journal, for those of you in college your school is likely to be subscribed so here is the info to look it up:

Zoological Science 23: 261-275 (2006)

Morphological and molecular revision of zoanthus from southwestn japan, with descriptions of two new species

by: James Davis Reimer

that other artical was also interesting but this one aplys directly to People eaters and formaly names them Z. gigantus


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Old 04/11/2006, 08:14 PM   #10
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Can you cut and paste? Or type some of it out?
I'd love to see it!


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Old 04/11/2006, 08:33 PM   #11
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I will email James Reimer tonight and see if I can post some of his pics and what not.
He also made a "key to species" this is the shortend version of the identification of Z. gigantus:
"White vertical stripes on serface of closed polyp; polyp diameter towards oral disk usually over twice as wide as polyp diameter at base." (Reimer 2006)

there are pics as well one looks like the RPE and one like the GPE

this work was done with zoas from around southwest Japan so he didn't necessarily use PPE and he was collecting from the wild so it is posable that the group we as hobbiest call PE are of a broader range and are of more than one species however by placing these ones from Japan in the Genus Zoanthus it means that all PE are Zoanthus and are likely gigantus but not necessarily


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Old 04/11/2006, 08:42 PM   #12
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Could someone post a pic of PPE with there polyps closed? that way everyone who doesn't have them can see the Identifying white bands? also If you have other PE post them with polyp closed lets see if they all have white bands.


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Old 04/11/2006, 08:46 PM   #13
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yes, i know what you are talking about with the white bands, i'll see if i can round up some pics of other PE types

i thought this characteristic was already something that was established for protopalys? i know thats what i've looked for as a good characteristic for the past year. b/c in my LFS the lights are terrible on the frag tank, and the polyps are usually closed anyways b/c the polyps are stressed out.


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Old 04/11/2006, 09:12 PM   #14
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So, the theory is that PPE type protopalythoas are really a large type of zoanthus? Now that is interesting. Especially when it comes to this whole zoa pox problem people have been having. It only seems to effect zoanthids, but not protopalythoa (PPE's)

Here is a pic with a PPE polyp closed, but I don't think it's a good example.



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Old 04/11/2006, 09:18 PM   #15
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Here are some pics of the white bands.

Here we have some Red People Eaters.


I dont know what these were called. But these are the ones that are purple, but with a pink/red skirt and green mouth.


those were the best pics of PE types with white bands I could get to turn out. I have a few others, but they are very small frags, which makes picture taking very challenging.

On a side note, while I had the camera out I thought I'd share what a true palythoa matt looks like just for S's and G's. They are pink, and had green centers for a while after I got them. But after I fragged them they must have been very stressed, and lost the green center. It doesn't help that I just added the new Iwasaki Aqua2 bulb to try out, so they still look kinda ticked off.
Open:

Closed:


Hope this helps.


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Old 04/11/2006, 09:45 PM   #16
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Nice!
Let those pinks settle in and keep an eye on your alk, they'll get their green mouth back.

Eh hem, not to brag too much, but look what I turned some of my pinks into with some TLC.

Kindof need some LSD to look at them.


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Old 04/11/2006, 09:46 PM   #17
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I think that the second one is also zoanthus, some zoanthus have a well developed coenenchyme and so you are not able to distingish between protopolythoa and zoanthus in this way. in other words just because they are connected in a solid mat does not mean they are palythoa (if you have the paper look at the picture on top of page 266 they compare the two newly named species. the one on the left has a solid well developed coenenchyme and it is in the genus Zoanthus

paythoa often incorporates sediment into its ectoderm and feels rough to the touch, it is also more actively carnivoruos and will feed on meaty foods ( not to say that zoanthus will not)


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Old 04/11/2006, 10:09 PM   #18
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"an eye on your alk" Reefjunkie, what do you mean by that exactly? Just keeping it stable? or a high or low preference? i keep my dkH somewhat stable from 8-10 in a given week, i usually bump it back up to 10 every weekend.


Fcwham - right, i know solid continuous matts can be misleading. but i thought the defining characteristic of the palythoa, was the polyps are actually embeded in the matt/coenenchyme? as you can see, the pinks that i took pics of, do not have any stalk to speak, its not that they are small, they just dont exist.

correct me if i'm wrong on this, but with all zoanthids/protopalys, if you place them in light deficient area, they will extend their stalks longer, so the face of the polyp has a better chance of reaching the light? palythoa cannot do this b/c the polyps are actually embeded into the coenenchyme, correct?

i tried to blow on them harder, but they just werent cooperating. after the lights go out, the polyps completely disapear into the coenenchyme, you could run your finger over it and it would be a continuous flat surface (for the most part). not sure about the "roughness" though. I've tried to leave these guys alone after they lost their green centers


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Old 04/11/2006, 10:18 PM   #19
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I will get more info on this for you surfnvb7


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Old 04/11/2006, 10:28 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by surfnvb7
"
i tried to blow on them harder, but they just werent cooperating.
You must be married...

Sorry man, I couldn't resist.

Yep, your alk, keep it stable. 8-10, that's kosher.
Why do you spike it on the weekends? No time with work?


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Old 04/11/2006, 10:45 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Reef Junkie
You must be married...

Sorry man, I couldn't resist.

Yep, your alk, keep it stable. 8-10, that's kosher.
Why do you spike it on the weekends? No time with work?
nope, not married yet.... i'll just leave it at that before she hands me a shovel i find myself digging a deeper hole

i do the cheapo method of keeping up my chemical parameters (grad student method). the only chemical filtration/maintenance i do is add baking soda (in small amounts) to make up for lost dkH, and dry Kent Turbo Calcium. nothing else. no carbon, no nothin

i am heavily influenced by my reef club to turn over to the dark side and stock heavily with sps. so i do have quite a few sps, and it will easily get knocked down from 10 to 7 in a week (~40g).

but yeah, i just mix in about 3 teaspoons of some baking soda with fresh water every weekend to make up for the evap in the sump. been doing it this way for over a year, and usually have better looking sps than most people in my area with the high tech equipment etc. so I must be doing something right.

i think i am going to look into doing randy's 2 part dosing system on my next tank, which will hopefully be set up in the next 6months after i move. i have no motivation to buy a kalk reactor and/or calcium reactor for my tank. i am hoping a litermeterII dosing pump(s) would work better, and can leave it alone for long periods of time before having to service and make new batches.

but yeah, after doing a planted tank for a couple of years, and constantly having my hands in the tank, i try to take the approach of "set it up and forget it" with the saltwater tank. seems to work well as long as i test calcium and alk on weekends.


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Old 04/11/2006, 10:53 PM   #22
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Ah, I know another Grad student zoa junkie on this board.
Yes, drop the marriage talk. It's like mentioning the nameless one... Trust me brother, I'm married and I love my wife and RUN!

I couldn't agree with you more on the simple part. I get made fun of all the time because my tank is so simple, but only because it's simple, not because how it looks.

Reactors are great, but really it's hard to justify the cost if you don't have a really large tank. Otherwise dosing a large tank will cost you more in one year then a reactor would cost to buy. Oh, and don't think you can get away with using baking soda in a large tank either. The amount of baking soda you'll need and the mess it'll make.

If you can swing it, use a two part system, you'll be shocked how much nicer your corals will look. I went back to b-ionic a while ago and won't change until I get another big tank. Then I'll just buy a reactor.

Hey, I want to see your reef.

Bill


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Old 04/12/2006, 12:49 AM   #23
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James Reimer sent some pics of zoas that he used in the research, here is a pic of the zoa:

They are RPE, IMO they are definatly People Eaters
and these have been ID as Z. gigantus


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Old 04/12/2006, 08:11 AM   #24
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I have some just like that.....so those are zoanthids now? instead of palythoas? Well good to know...Thanks for sharing the info and article.


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Old 04/12/2006, 10:26 AM   #25
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Ok... Call me retarted or whatever... I have not read this article... but I just dont think I can believe this new classification just yet.

I have some VERY tiny red zoa's that display the SAME exact white bands when closed as PE's. The red's are the absolute smallest zoa in my tank.

What does this mean? Does it help to suport this gentilman's classification that PE's are zoanthids? Or could it mean that he has not done quite enough research if he's saying that only these PE's will have the white band? <--- I'm not personally saying anything here!!!! just asking a bunch of questions.


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