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Old 04/08/2007, 09:47 PM   #1
Slakker
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Exclamation URGENT: Possible sick clown...

The smaller of my two clowns is swimming frantically near the sides of the tank, bumping into the walls from time to time. I think he was fine when I got home a few minutes ago, and I noticed it when I accidentally turned the tank light back on trying to adjust the timer.
I noticed how active he was and left it on for a moment trying to get a closer look, and I think he might have had a few white spots on him, but nothing for certain and he was moving REALLY fast. Now that the lights are back off and I've spent about 20 minutes testing parameters and writing this out, they appear to have calmed down tons.

Also, my two Turbo Snails have both gathered up near the surface on the front glass in the middle of the tank. I don't know if this is significant, but it seems odd. One started doing it after i switched bulbs, the other has joined it for today.

Specific Gravity is 1.021 (i know, a little low), the temp somehow got up to 82, so I turned the heater down a little bit and have cracked a window in the room.

Ammonia/nitrites/nitrates are 0/0/25-50 (the color was more towards 50, but tough to tell, so i'm thinking it's in between somewhere.) and pH is ~8.0

The nitrates have gone up since my last test, though I removed the bio-wheel from my system and performed a water change since then. I think I may also be over feeding and ending up with a lot of wasted food. I know, it's useless without pictures, but I can't get a picture of him when he's NOT freaking out, so I don't think it's gonna happen.

Are my nitrates bothering him, or did he just get spooked by the light? I'm trying to think of anything that could help you help me...

I use conditioned tap water (I know, I know...but i'm in the dorms and options are limited). They're captive bred, but were in a tank with some WC fish (not clowns) at the LFS. I've had them since Friday, and the LFS had them for about a week. They both looked and acted incredibly healthy at the LFS, as did the other fish in the tank with them, and have eaten readily in my tank.

If there's anything else that might help please ask, I'm really concerned. I hope they'll both look okay when lights come back on in the morning.

Thanks much in advance!!!


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics
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Old 04/08/2007, 10:13 PM   #2
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They can definitely be startled by lighting, at this point, relax and update us in the morning

Be good to know if they both ate heartily.

fwiw: What other equipment to you have on the system?


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Old 04/08/2007, 10:26 PM   #3
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Right now I've got whatever pump Marineland put in this thing, they say the flow is ~150gph. The Eclipse filter pad, a polyfiber sponge-ish thing with activated carbon underneath it. Come to think of it, it's the same pad my friend used when she had the system, so it likely needs to be replaced. As I said, I removed their Bio-Wheel, as I feel my sand/rock should be sufficient biological filtration. I'm also using the Stealth heater that is packaged with the system.

I don't know if lighting is relevant, but I've got a 13w 50/50 (10,000k/Actinic 03) compact fluorescent in there right now.

I've been feeding them Formula 1 flake, broken into smaller pieces, and I also break a Kent reef herbivore pellet into smaller chunks and add it at the same time. I've seen them grab pieces of flake and pellet alike.

I got the pellet from her when I bought the tank, so it could be a month or two old (should probably discontinue feeding this, in retrospect), but the Formula 1 was purchased the same day as the clowns. I plan on adding frozen foods to their diet soon, but have been doing some testing to make sure that my freezer here at school can reliably keep things frozen.

They both seem to have gone back to normal at this point, moving at a normal rate and keeping near the place I've seen them sleeping. For now I'm hopeful that I'm just overreacting. Also, when the light came on a friend of mine was standing near the tank wearing a red shirt, and I remember reading somewhere that brightly colored clothing can scare fish. Could have added to his panic, I guess, but the female seemed fairly calm through all of it...just kind of following him around with a bit of a "What are you doing?" kind of attitude. (personification, anyone? )

Sorry for replying with such a novel, but I feel like a worried mother. Kinda gives me a new perspective on why my mom always fussed over us kids...lol


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics
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Old 04/08/2007, 10:55 PM   #4
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IME: Clowns, especially new arrivals, prefer 3-4 smaller feedings per day. Variety is good, the pellets are likely fine. See if you can find some frozen cyclopeze. Possibly check a local fish club to split a package(you will not need much at all).

Good luck and let us know.


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Old 04/08/2007, 10:58 PM   #5
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Thanks, Scott.

I'm really hoping that the spots were just my imagination. I'll start feeding more often, but less quantity...maybe like one smashed up flake and one pellet per meal?

Edit: And for the cyclop-eeze, what form should I get it in...freeze dried, frozen, etc? Are there any other foods you suggest?

I plan to pick up a bottle of selcon, too...figure it can't hurt anything.


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics

Last edited by Slakker; 04/08/2007 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 04/08/2007, 11:50 PM   #6
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I had a blue flashlight sitting around, so I shined it in the tank and had a look, and the clowns have some definite white spots on them...and one of them seems to be breathing heavily.

They were FINE this morning...I don't understand


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics
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Old 04/09/2007, 12:12 AM   #7
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QT all your new purchases, you know that.


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Old 04/09/2007, 12:24 AM   #8
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Yeah, I should have. I figured as the only fish in there they'd be fine, but I guess not.

Is there anything I can do at this point, or do I just wait and see if I wake up to dead fish?


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics
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Old 04/09/2007, 05:22 AM   #9
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What else is in the tank? So far two clowns and two snails?

I prefer frozen cyclopeze to the other forms, but the others are available. Don't be afraid to use some enriched frozen brine as well.


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Old 04/09/2007, 07:11 AM   #10
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The two clowns, two Turbo's snails, three blue legged hermits, a peppermint shrimp, ~13 pounds of live rock. I'm ashamed to say that I added the peppermint shrimp, both clowns, and some of the rock all in one day, which could turn out to be a fatal mistake...it was probably just too much new stuff at once, but my tank isn't going through another cycle, so I'm not sure what could possibly have gone so wrong, aside from the fish being infected before but not showing symptoms.

The light's haven't come on yet, but both clowns are still alive. In my panicking last night I added a bit of Amquel+ to the tank (less than the recommended dosage) because I figured the high nitrates were certainly not helping anything.

I am 100% willing to pull together a hospital tank if they are really not doing well...what do I need to buy to put one together? A 10g tank, a heater, an hob filter, and a cheap light of some kind?

I was thinking a FW dip and then treat with Formalin, but I don't know what it really is.

Edit: At this point, I'm willing to do everything within my power to save these clowns. I can pay off the credit card later.


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics
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Old 04/09/2007, 07:25 AM   #11
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And thank you all again, for all of your continuing help, and for putting up with my absurd inability to remain calm.


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics
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Old 04/09/2007, 07:29 AM   #12
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Formalin is not likely your friend in this case. FW dip is not likely going to be helpful either.

A 10gal tank will be helpful for future QT.

In my opinion, I would go that route and pick up what you described, but you can skip the light for now if you have enough ambient light for observation of spots, etc. Feel free to go with a light if the budget allows, as you will want to QT everything for observation prior to going into your tank later.

Pick up two or three PVC elbows(1.5" should do) and scrub them down without cleansers, remove stickers, etc. Put them in a pile and the clowns should take to them pretty quickly.

Be prepared for plenty of water changes, you are setting up for 6 weeks.

Good reading here:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html


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Old 04/09/2007, 07:45 AM   #13
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Any chance you can borrow a QT tank from a local reefer for the time being?


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Old 04/09/2007, 08:11 AM   #14
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It's a possibility, but I can pick up everything I need (except maybe for the PVC) from wal-mart or petco today in the next couple of hours, and I may have to wait longer to get it from a local. Unfortunately I haven't been able to make it to any meetings, but have been talking to people on the forum here and there, so I'll send out a call for local help. Great idea

Since my tank is only 12g I'll have to all but drain it to fill the QT, but the LR can deal with freshly mixed water. My clowns are the priority at this point. I'll also be picking up a PH and perhaps another bucket of Instant Ocean so that I can have a constant supply for water changes. I am also considering switching to grocery store RO water for changes...I figure that even if it's poorly maintained, it HAS to be better than the tap water here at school.

I screwed up once already...and now my clowns are potentially suffering because of it. I'm doing things the right way from here on out. While my clowns are in QT, I'll be replacing the sand in my main tank, as well as the carbon, like I probably should have done in the beginning, before any livestock hit the water. Maybe I can get a local reefer to hang onto my inverts in case my tank re-cycles after the sand is replaced.

If all goes well the QT will be up and running before noon.

For the filter, I will want to just run it as it's sold, with all filter media in tact, and if I have to treat with something remove the media, right?

Also, would it be an okay idea to work them down to hypo over the next couple of days?


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics

Last edited by Slakker; 04/09/2007 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 04/09/2007, 08:50 AM   #15
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If it actually is ich, do not give the snails away as their shells can be holding ich cysts, or the larvae of the ich before is MMP's into the parasite that lives on fish...


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Old 04/09/2007, 09:01 AM   #16
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Ah, okay...I hadn't thought of that. They can probably survive in an aerated bucket for a while, and if not...well...better than losing my Clowns.

Lights are on now, and they both look much better than they did last night, but are currently cowering in a cave and appear to possibly be breathing more heavily than normal.

Either way, I'll be running to get the QT tank now.


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics
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Old 04/09/2007, 09:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Slakker
I am also considering switching to grocery store RO water for changes...I figure that even if it's poorly maintained, it HAS to be better than the tap water here at school.

For the filter, I will want to just run it as it's sold, with all filter media in tact, and if I have to treat with something remove the media, right?
Why not just buy distilled water? If I remember correctly walmat sells it pretty cheap. A local reefer may also be able to help you out with this.

Yes, I would remove any media if you are going to medicate.


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Old 04/09/2007, 09:43 AM   #18
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Quick reactions in this hobby are almost always bad reactions.

Glass tanks are easy to clean out after hospital use, it is a good idea to have one on hand.

Siphon half of the main tank into the hospital tank and move the clowns.

Top off the display with saltwater that has been mixed to proper temp and specific gravity.

Over the next few hours, top off the hospital tank with fresh dechlorinated water of proper temperature.

Don't move sand, rock, inverts, unless you are absolutely certain there is something wrong with them.

Keys now, are stability and feeding for the clowns, and dropping the specific gravity to a level which prevents the parasites from reproducing.

This is a battle of attrition and patience, but 100% effective if performed properly.


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Old 04/09/2007, 10:51 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by redvipe2010
Why not just buy distilled water? If I remember correctly walmat sells it pretty cheap. A local reefer may also be able to help you out with this.

Yes, I would remove any media if you are going to medicate.
i use wall mart drinking water with the green label when i need water

it is Ro/di and distilled very clean water. i dont trust distilled as much as the drinking water


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Old 04/09/2007, 11:14 AM   #20
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Okay. After spending ~$100 on supplies for the QT, I think i'm about ready to go.

Should I just use tapwater to clean off the tank and PVC piping?

I'm still not positive that it's actually Ich, but from what I understand 6 weeks in stable Hypo can't hurt the fish any, and will give me the opportunity to medicate and whatnot if necessary.

Just a very scary "What-if," how would one treat for Brooklynella?


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics
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Old 04/09/2007, 11:27 AM   #21
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Yes to cleaning with tap, you are just trying to rinse any shipping, labeling, curing, residue.

Brook is listed on the same site linked above, but I would suspect amyloo over brook at this stage.


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Old 04/09/2007, 11:39 AM   #22
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Okay.

I forgot to list what I picked up for the tank.

I got 3 pieces of PVC, all 2" diameter. I've got a T, a 90' and a 45' elbow.

10g tank, 50w pre-set Whisper heater (pre-set to 78, but I don't know if I trust it...I might put it in the display and move that heater into the QT), a 10-20g "Aqua-Tech" power filter with activated carbon and some sort of bio-fiber for the bacteria to take hold in.

I grabbed some ORA-Glo food, as I couldn't find any Cyclopeeze at petco, a digital thermometer, and a seperate siphon for the QT tank (seemed like a good idea), and also an "Aqua-Tech" powerhead for salt mixing.

I think I've got most of my bases covered here...anything I missed?
(I didn't get a cover for the tank...will that be okay?)


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics
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Old 04/09/2007, 11:50 AM   #23
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Definately keep an eye on the temp. with any new heater.

I don't keep a cover on any of my tanks. Its best not to cover them.

Got any pics?


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Old 04/09/2007, 11:51 AM   #24
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Hmmm, clowns are actually jumpers....I'd find something to cover the tank. Egg crate(light diffusion grating from Home Depot/Lowes) is not a bad longer term solution. Near term, use a lower water level to be safe, until you find a cheap and effective cover.

If you have to medicate, no carbon, but for now I would use it.


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Old 04/09/2007, 11:58 AM   #25
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Okay, I can head to a couple of hardware stores to pick up some egg crate.

I haven't gotten any clear pics of the clowns as of yet...my camera is really not fast enough, and the little guys move around quite a bit.

I am getting fairly close to transferring the water and clowns to the new tank, and am hoping that i won't stress them out too much with the netting and such.

Thanks again for all of the help...you guys are great.

Edit: Also, I'm planning on placing the heater horizontally underneath the return flow from the filter...good idea, bad idea?


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Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house.

Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics

Last edited by Slakker; 04/09/2007 at 12:04 PM.
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