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Old 05/09/2009, 07:09 AM   #1
HighlandReefer
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H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide) to control cyanobacteria?

I just read some articles about the effects of hydrogen peroxide on cyanobacteria. Apparently some of this research has been around for some time.

I am curious if anyone has tried this or knows anything else about its use in reef aquariums?

Hydrogen Peroxide Inhibits Photosynthetic Electron Transport in Cells of Cyanobacteria
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k8857r1501213202/

Combined exposure to hydrogen peroxide and light : Selective effects on cyanobacteria, green algae, and diatoms
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18420025


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Old 05/09/2009, 07:33 AM   #2
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Another interesting link:

Hydrogen Peroxide:
http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Hydrogen_peroxide


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Old 05/09/2009, 07:39 AM   #3
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This is a link which describes its use also:

http://www.americanaquariumproducts....dication3.html

From this article:

"HYDROGEN PEROXIDE; H2O2:

Hydrogen Peroxide is a strong oxidizer with a Redox of +1.82.
Hydrogen peroxide is commonly used as a disinfectant for cleaning wounds in people, as well, Hydrogen peroxide has also been used in aquaculture to add oxygen to water (often prior to shipping) or as an immersion (bath) treatment against many different disease-causing organisms, including external parasites, bacteria, and fungi, on different species and life-stages of fish.
Since fish (& other vertebrate animal) cells produce one or another form of catalase (which is a Redox Reducer) for protection against effects of free radicals (which an oxidizer such as Hydrogen Peroxide is), dilute H2O2 is rapidly decomposed by catalase into oxygen and water, before it can do damage to the fish cell. That is the reason H2O2 will bubble when applied to an open cut.
However many lower animals such as shrimp do not appear to produce this catalase in enough quantity (if at all), so the use Hydrogen Peroxide in the presence of invertebrates such as Shrimp should be avoided.

Hydrogen Peroxide decomposes rapidly into water and oxygen, however in concentrations of Hydrogen Peroxide (not generally household), this can be explosive in a sealed container (due to concentrated oxygen buildup, not from hydrogen). This rapid decomposition into water and oxygen is what makes the use of Hydrogen Peroxide plausible considering its high oxidation properties. This is also how Hydrogen Peroxide is useful for the use in adding oxygen to fish prior to shipping (although care MUST be exercised so as to not over dose, which would be lethal.
As well continued use of Hydro Peroxide can stunt growth and as well result in more damage to a fish in the form of lower immunity than in help from oxidation of disease pathogens (due to high Redox Oxidation)

Household Hydrogen Peroxide is generally a solution of about 3%, while PEROX-AID® (Eka Chemicals, Marietta, Georgia) is 35%.

USE/DOSAGE

Hydrogen Peroxide being a stronger oxidizer than chlorine can damage gills and other epidermal tissues on fish, especially adults. Gouramis and other Labyrinth fish seem to be especially sensitive to Hydrogen Peroxide and use with these fish should be avoided.
The use with eggs to prevent Saprolegnia is generally the safest, although baths for Saprolegnia and Columnaris treatment is another use, although not as safe based on my experience and research.

The table below shows dosages of the Hydrogen Peroxide product; 35% PEROX-AID®
Please Click to enlarge: (from Use of Hydrogen Peroxide in Finfish Aquaculture)
NOTE: There are 396,100 mg of hydrogen peroxide per L of 35% PEROX-AID®.
NOTE: There are 1000 mL in 1 L. The liters are converted to milliliters to allow for easier measuring of the 35% PEROX-AID® liquid for treatment.
For example, if you need to use a treatment concentration of 500 mg/L and will treat 150 liters of water in a closed system, then:
For the use of 3% Household Hydrogen Peroxide (for ornamental fish ONLY), consider that it is only 3% so you would multiply dosages by a multiple of about 11 times.

As well here are a few other conversions to consider (use accurate teaspoons, not silverware):
*Teaspoon = 4.929 mL
*Tablespoon = .5 fl. oz. = 14.787 mL

As a Plant Dip for algae

Hydrogen Peroxide can be used as a plant dip or bath for algae such as BBA (Black Beard algae) or Cyanobacteria. Some will add this directly to the tank as well at a rate of 2 oz. of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide per 10 gallons. HOWEVER this is best done without shrimp (such as Cherry Shrimp) present, as this will kill them. Please see the Algae Control section of this article: Aquarium Plants; Information from Basic to Advanced

Please see this article from the University of Florida for MUCH more about Hydrogen Peroxide for use with fish: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide in Finfish Aquaculture."


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Old 05/09/2009, 07:52 AM   #4
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Kinda like playing with fire, As a solution for Cyno though maybe a test on a separate Isolated sample may give some Idea of just what It will kill. A piece of live rock with cyno and some form of life on It would work, You would see If the life lives but How about the bacteria? How would you tell? Interesting though, I would be afraid to add this to my display tank, Too much to lose!


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Old 05/09/2009, 08:13 AM   #5
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Yes, using any oxidative compound in a reef system can be like playing with fire.

The more I read, the more it seems that there may be uses for H2O2 for applications of pest control in the reef aquarium, when one has tried all other alternative methods. Certainly a very good understanding of the effects of using H202 would be needed to use it.

This is another article I found interesting:

Oxidative coupling during gut passage in marine deposit-feeding invertebrates
http://www.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_49/issue_3/0716.pdf

From this article:

"Intertidal invertebrates
are not only exposed to varying concentrations
of O2 capable of inducing oxidative stress, but also high
concentrations of hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) generated by ultraviolet
radiation (Abele-Oeschager et al. 1994; Buchner et
al. 1996). Sediments also contain significant amounts of photooxidation
and other decay products of senescent phytoplankton
cells, including hydroperoxides (Rontani and Marchand
2000; Marchand and Rontani 2001). Production of
ROS can also be increased by uptake of polycyclic aromatic
hydrocarbons (PAHs) and their photooxidation products
(Livingstone et al. 1990; Arfsten et al. 1996)."


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Old 05/09/2009, 08:26 AM   #6
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Perhaps one way to possibly use H2O2 in a reef aquarium, would be to apply a proper concentration directly to the cyanobacteria using a turkey baster. One would not want to cover all the areas in the reef aquarium all at one time. Perhaps treating smaller areas over a period of time would be best. Since H202 brakes down very quickly, I would assume that this "might" be safe. How much total H202 to apply at one time and still be safe to all the occupants would have to be determined. The period one should wait before re-treating would have to be determined also.

Any suggestions?


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Old 05/09/2009, 08:59 AM   #7
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why play with fire?
chemiclean, eurythromycin, etc. works without to much risk.

I know of one SW ick medication that uses peroxide that tends to wipe out shrimp.


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Old 05/09/2009, 09:11 AM   #8
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I have no idea what is in ChemiClean. They do not choose to disclose the active ingredient(s). ChemiClean is an oxidant also, from my understanding. I am not sure it is any safer.

I have read quite a few threads regarding the use of ChemiClean and Erythromycin. Many claim that they do not work and as soon as you stop dosing, the cyano returns with a vengeance.


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Old 05/09/2009, 09:19 AM   #9
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I agree that other reef safe preparation works fine for eliminating cyano. However, in fresh water planted aquariums, hobbyists use hydrogen peroxide to get rid of nuisance algae include cyano in a localized area. They carefully squirt a small amount of H2O2 directly on algae using a small syringe. They stop all the filters/powerheads to keep the water still for a short time.

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Old 05/09/2009, 09:23 AM   #10
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Chemiclean, While It does work, Cyno seems to always reappear without any clear reason as to what Is causing It. I have had one specific area In my 185 that has had multiple outbreaks of Cyno, I have tried all the remedies Including adding direct flow to that area with an extra Tunze. It will go away then reappear at a later date regardless Of what treatment I've used. A combination of removing and treating plus extra flow seems to be the best way to control It, But an absolute cure would be better IMO.


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Old 05/09/2009, 09:36 AM   #11
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no matter what you use to cure cyano, it will always return if you don't eliminate the cause. chemiclean is still eurythromycin (an anti bacterial, not an oxidizer), they just use a different form that's a little safer than standard euythromycin. standard stuff will kill good bacteria too.

I was involved in clinical trials of an H202 ick medication.
results varied on the cure, but crustaceans took a hit.

I like my pods and bugs (which there are very few of in a FW tank).


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Old 05/09/2009, 09:47 AM   #12
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This is a thread I found that pretty much raps up what I have found that hobbyists have to say about using different products in our reef systems. Certainly in many cases there can be extenuating circumstances. Bob Fenner's concluding remarks did not help much either:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/maralgcidefaqs.htm

There does not seem to be a product available that will knock the cyano out completely, probably due to their cyst stage, IMHO.

Cyano seems to be a major problem for hobbyists, probably greater than algae type problems.

I don't believe any of the products including Erythromycin, are without definite risks.


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Old 05/09/2009, 09:54 AM   #13
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Rick,

The cause of cyano appearing in a reef aquarium and trying to eliminate this cause, is virtually impossible IMHO.

Trying to prevent cyanobacteria from entering in your system from all the things that are added after set-up is impossible.

Cyano live quite happily in our system and require very little to survive. You can't knock cyano out by reducing phosphate & nitrate or even turning the lights off for a while.

How would you go about eliminating the cause of cyano?


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Old 05/09/2009, 10:55 AM   #14
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I thought I had read something regarding ChemiClean being an oxidizer. I found what I was referring to in this site:

http://www.seaquestmarine.com/Medication_s/22.htm

From the label for ChemiClean:

"Chemi Clean removes disease causing red cyano bacteria (red slime) from live coral,and oxidizes trapped organic sludge and sediment. Chemi Clean also clarifies aquarium water to crystal clear and promotes ideal enzyme balance. Safe for reef tanks, all invertebrates, desirable macro algaes, nitrifying bacteria and fish. Contents treat 300 gallons."


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Old 05/09/2009, 11:41 AM   #15
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Since I went to reverse light cycle in my refugium and started iron supplementation, no cyano grows in there any more. I still get some on my back glass. It doesn't grow on my rocks or my substrate. It is manageable at this point. Even if H2O2 kills cyano, it will come back, if the underlying cause isn't removed. I was wondering if UV sterilization will work to control this pest?


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Old 05/09/2009, 11:48 AM   #16
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The data presented in this research did not look to promising.

Effects of UV and visible light on cyanobacteria at the cellular level
http://www.rsc.org/publishing/journa...p?doi=b203955a

From this article:

"The effect of UV and visible light on cyanobacteria was determined at the cellular level by means of epifluorescence and confocal microscopy techniques. These methods allow the examination of light effects in spatial resolution. Series of measurements were performed to determine the effect of different light qualities and quantities on cyanobacteria. To analyze the effect of the light quality, samples of Anabaena and Scytonema sp. were exposed to intense blue, green or red light applied from the epifluorescence path of the microscope. The fluorescence of the phycobiliproteins was recorded by means of epifluorescence (excitation 550 nm, 20 nm half band width (HBW), emission above 635 nm) or by confocal microscopy (560 nm laser line). Upon exposure to blue or green light the cells showed an increase in fluorescence followed by a sudden and complete loss of fluorescence. Blue light was more effective (bleaching of phycobiliproteins within 45 min) than green light (bleaching within 120 min). Red light was not as effective, and bleaching of the cells took at least 24 h. Initially the cells showed an increase in fluorescence followed by fast bleaching of the fluorescence signal. Cells exposed to UV plus PAR were bleached within 60 min, while cells exposed to photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) only were totally bleached after about 120 min. FL-DHP (dihydropyridine) labeling was performed in two cyanobacteria, Anabaena sp. and Nostoc commune, to visualize L-type calcium channels. Both cyanobacterial strains showed a pronounced FL-DHP signal of the heterocysts and akinetes but only a weak signal from the vegetative cells. The results clearly indicate the presence of calcium channels in these cells. UV radiation decreased the amount of chlorophyll and phycocyanin as could be seen from a decline in the autofluorescence of the cells. In contrast, the FL-DHP signal was not affected by UV."


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Old 05/09/2009, 12:21 PM   #17
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Percula9,

It's interesting you bring up iron dosing. From other threads, I have read that many hobbyists feel that dosing iron will increase cyano problems. There are lots of documents that indicate increased iron levels leads to cyano and algae blooms.

I am not sure how changing to a reverse light cycle in your refugium would aid in controlling cyano. In my refugium with a deep sand bed, I have quite a bit of cyano growing. I am going to clean my refugium out, turn of the lights and just maintain the deep sand bed as The Fatman has recommended. When I first started my refugium with deep sand bed and no lights or macro, it did reduce my nitrates compared before I put in in-line. Since I have lit my refugium, I have nothing but algae and cyano problems.


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Old 05/09/2009, 12:38 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by HighlandReefer
I thought I had read something regarding ChemiClean being an oxidizer.

"Chemi Clean removes disease causing red cyano bacteria (red slime) from live coral,and oxidizes trapped organic sludge and sediment.
I believe that's from increased redox potential.


Quote:
Originally posted by HighlandReefer
Rick,

The cause of cyano appearing in a reef aquarium and trying to eliminate this cause, is virtually impossible IMHO.

Trying to prevent cyanobacteria from entering in your system from all the things that are added after set-up is impossible.

Cyano live quite happily in our system and require very little to survive. You can't knock cyano out by reducing phosphate & nitrate or even turning the lights off for a while.

How would you go about eliminating the cause of cyano?

I agree it's impossible to eliminate it's introduction. it's present in rock and corals, and it's likely spores go airborn too.

I disagree that limiting nitrates and phosphates won't limit the growth of cyano (all other factors accounted for). especially phosphate.

I use NSW, change bulbs regularly (my cyano growth is currently limited to tanks with very old or low spectrum bulbs), keep my top three chems in line (calc/alk/mag), provide decent flow, lotsa rock for a 0 nitrate reading, and limiting the phosphates I introduce.

I don't personally use any phosphate media, just carbon, on my system. almost all the tanks share the same water, just different lights.


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Old 05/09/2009, 12:55 PM   #19
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Rick,

I agree that keeping your water parameters within specs. is needed for controlling cyano. Especially phosphate & nitrate. However, IMHO, you could reduce your phosphates & nitrates to as close to zero as possible and this would not eliminate the physical appearance by, the eye, of cyano. Cyano is present on every reef with extremely low nutrients out there.

Are you saying that Erythromycin will increase the redox potential and therefore is considered an oxidizer?


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Old 05/09/2009, 01:30 PM   #20
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From this article:

Molecular Mechanisms of Anti-Inflammatory Action of Erythromycin in Human Bronchial Epithelial Cells: Possible Role in the Signaling Pathway That Regulates Nuclear Factor-B Activation
http://aac.asm.org/cgi/content/full/48/5/1581

"EM (Erythromycin) had no effects on the redox environment that regulates the activation of transcription factors, including NF-B and AP-1.

It is interesting that this article implies that the use of oxidants or antioxidants may increase the bactericidal effects of Erythromycin. Perhaps they add an oxidizer to the ChemiClean in addition to Erythromycin?


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Old 05/09/2009, 02:10 PM   #21
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Wow you guys are getting above my paygrade, But thanks for all the good Info! One method I forgot to mention was Brown Sugar dosed at around 1tsp per 200gal seems to knock It down almost as good as Chemiclean. Any thoughts on this ?


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Old 05/09/2009, 02:35 PM   #22
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poolkeeper1,

Now you are getting into a real hot topic. The use of carbon sources to control cyano.

IMHO, using carbon sources is in the realm of trying to out compete cyano for nutrients using bacteria.

If you stop and think about it, bacteria are about the only organism that may have the potential to out compete the cyano. They both can derive their C,N,P from food, N2 & CO2.

Unfortunately, CO2 is normally available in more abundant levels in our reef tanks than the levels found in the ocean.

N is available in our reef tanks in abundant supply.

You can try to lower your phosphate level to zero if you like, but there will still be more phosphate available in our reef tank then in the normal reefs found in the ocean.

This leaves the possibility of using strains of bacteria that would be able to out-compete the cyano. I have not read any articles where these strains of bacteria exist. I would be interested in any information about this possibility.

Unless there are strains of bacteria that can out-compete cyano, I don't see carbon dosing as a viable option to control cyano except to reduce the phosphate and nitrate to very low levels. IMHO, the cyano will end up laughing in our face.


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Old 05/09/2009, 02:47 PM   #23
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I guess I should have picked a different title to this post. Perhaps a title like, Anyone have any additional information about cyanobacteria & their control in reef aquariums that they care to share.


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Old 05/09/2009, 02:53 PM   #24
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It's funny that you say that because I dose Vodka daily at a rate of 4ml a day currently, and have had great results doing so. I had wondered weather my Cyno problem had resulted from my dosing in some way but why would brown sugar ( just a different carbon source ) be a solution to removing It. Which I clearly think It did, I added no other remedy other than the BS to get rid of It. Or am I just not looking at this In the right context, would It be a different bacteria strain although both being carbon based?


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Old 05/09/2009, 02:55 PM   #25
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Sorry did not mean to Hijack your thread.


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