"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins

[Triggerfish]

Haven't had to deal with this annoying protozoan for over a year, i was lucky as i did not quarantine.
i believe it entered the system with the addition of 40lbs of unquarantined LR that i bought off someone. his tank had ich before although none of his fish seemed infected at the time..just didn't think the parasite could have been on the rocks.. OR, more than likely, I just didn't "think" at all..just can add this to the list of many stupid things i have already done.

ANYWAY, i am undergoing an ich outbreak right now and have a 25w UV going..after 10 days my angel is just as infected as he was before after giving him a FW bath that appeared to release almost all visible parasites from him.

i do not think i will be able to put a dent in the parasite population as each cyst can release up to 200 additional tomites within the water column. right now he has about 15 theronts on him. when each one matures and falls off, eventually up to 3000 tomites can enter the water searching for a host. it's likely they will find 1 or 2. my niger is also infected.

i could just leave everything alone and hope that they could just continue to fight "them" off until the cells age and die within 11 months..BUT,,that sort of blows..After thinking of possible plans of action, i am going to remove all fish into my 55 and hypo them for 6 weeks after the last parasite has been noticed. i will keep the main tank fishless for minimum of 6 weeks giving ample time for all tomites to have no host and die off.

this does suck... I will provide updates to this thread as the process moves along.

SUMMARY

Current Tank: 125aga semi reef established for 6 yrs
UV: 25w aquanetics w/new bulb
First Noticed ICH: 5/9/05
Infected inhabitants: Asfur angel, niger trigger, toby puffer

Overall Plan:
1. Remove all occupants to 55 to undergo hypo for 6 weeks after last theront is noticed. Begin 5/30/05.
2. Leave main tank fishless for minimum of 6 weeks.
3. Quarantine everything for 6 weeks prior to entering display
4. Monitor for the presence of the parasite for 1 year

[mike89t]

Here is a great article on Ich and it's life cycle.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

Here is a diagram of the Ich life cycle:



The Ich in your tank was most likely encysted on the live rock you added.

[mike89t]

Originally posted by Triggerfish
Overall Plan:
1. Remove all occupants to 55 to undergo hypo for 6 weeks after last theront is noticed. Begin 5/30/05.
2. Leave main tank fishless for minimum of 6 weeks.
3. Quarantine everything for 6 weeks prior to entering display
4. Monitor for the presence of the parasite for 1 year

This is what I would do. In fact I just completed a hypo treatment on my firefish a couple of months ago. Worked like a charm. I followed this treatment:

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...osalinity.html

[Triggerfish]

i decided to wait a few cycles to see if the parasite populations would diminish with the UV running. my angel would be infected then look fine for a couple days then would be reinfected.

the latest time he looked much worse and it did appear that the parasite was multiplying with each cycle.. my clown,niger,puffer all appeared to be fine. it appears the angel was more susceptible for the parasite to host on. and one of my small damsels had a few as well.

Update:
5/28 - all fish removed except blenny, parasite continues to not appear to be hosting on this fish.
- fish undergoing hypo at 1009 in 55g quarantine
- all fish are doing fine and eating normally
- no fish have displayed any ich parasites since going in quarantine

[plaz]

Hi,
I went through something similar and now quarantine everything for 8 weeks (even snails). It did work, but one caution is your water quality. I tried hypo and lost the cycle (probably not enough fully cycled media to start with). Even with 30% water changes daily, I couldn't control it. I slowly increase spg (very slowly) and added bio-spira and more ceramic media to get things back under control - but lost 2 fish due to the water quality prior to that.

That being said - I just wanted to let you know you are doing the right thing letting the tank go fallow. I have two hippos that have not shown any signs of ich since the experience. A couple of things though: 1) You will have to get the Blenny out even if no signs of ich (it can act as a host if it has built up an immunity and that will keep ich alive in your tank), 2) You need to keep the tank without any fish for a minimum of 8 weeks at 82 degrees - the ich trophant stage can possibly last up to 72 days. I did 12 weeks to be certain (although it was a complete pain).

Best of luck!

[tjay]

Well sounds like we are on the same path.
I moved my fish to a 50 gallon last week. There were only two and one did not make the transfer.
Today marks my first week down with remaining tang in hypo and main tank fallow. (just have some corals and inverts in there)
I have a weeks vacation the second week in July and will be finally getting my tank back to where it was before I introduced a ich laden cole tang.

I am pretty much doing what you are, except I think I want to find out if there are any other things I should treat the tang for before ending his QT

I look forward to hearing your progress as it seems we are on the same quest.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by plaz
but one caution is your water quality. I tried hypo and lost the cycle.

that will be the 1 and only concern with the fish in the 55 q-tank
i plan on feeding lightly for the 6 weeks and will need to keep an eye on NH3. thanks

Originally posted by plaz

1) You will have to get the Blenny out even if no signs of ich (it can act as a host if it has built up an immunity and that will keep ich alive in your tank)

i am under the impression that the parasite will not be unable to complete it's lifecycle on an immune host. (Burgess and Matthews (1994)

Originally posted by plaz

2) You need to keep the tank without any fish for a minimum of 8 weeks at 82 degrees - the ich trophant stage can possibly last up to 72 days.)

according to the link below, i think i am counting about 39 days. but will follow the recommended 6 weeks.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html
now when i am finished with this process and the parasite reoccurs,,then i will have to look at some of your added recommendations..thanks


tjay-- this does blow and impatience will eventually get ya.
glad i had the extra 55 laying around and my fish stock was light.
my angel was starting to get worse during each lifecycle. only sign of distress was last week when he began to flicker a bit..figured parasite was getting into the gills and i gave a FW bath that appeared to provide instant relief.

i mean catching each fish(had to take tank apart to catch one of the damsels) and acclimating them to the new tank individually was crazy..

6 weeks is going to seem like a hell of a long time to be fishless.
but will be adding some corals along the way of course.

[plaz]

I got the 72 days for tomonts from the 2nd article below. But that is they max extreme at low temps. I would make sure you hold out for the entire 6 weeks (it would be a pain to start all over again).

I would also seriously think about moving your blenny. If you read Steven Pros article, he says an immune fish can still serve as enough of a host to keep it in your system (mild or no symptoms).

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2003/mini1.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2003/mini2.htm

"The longest recorded period of time for tomonts to hatch is 72 days (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). The life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans is temperature dependent so it is highly unlikely for such an extended period to occur in a tropical aquarium."

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2003/mini1.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2003/mini2.htm

Best of luck once again!

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by plaz
I got the 72 days for tomonts from the 2nd article below. But that is they max extreme at low temps.

yes,,apparently cannot live that long at tropical temps which is what we are dealing with here. so the 6 weeks is good.
"an extended period of 72 days is highly unusual and can only occur in cooler waters." this statement makes it sound like it is unusual even IN cooler waters.

if the fish shows no symptoms then it could be that the parasite is harvesting in the gills, where you would not be able to see it mature. or it could be noticeable for a time period where i do not see it prior to it falling off. not to mention the light colored body where it makes it difficult to notice. i'll just really need to keep an eye on him.
i have concerns about moving this fish into a tank with no algae for 6 weeks..i could try to put in a nori sheet to even see if he would have interest,,if so i may move him. if not and the ich comes back then i can probably be pretty certain that he was maintaining the population.

[tjay]

I am totally without fish im my main. Turned the heat up a little tonight
I wondered about treating the main tank with one of thos ich treatments.
But honestly. I read everything I could find for two days and the rules seem to be
empty the main of fish and go 6 weeks, I am going 8
put all fishes in hypo for 6 weeks past the last signs of ich. My remaining fish never showed the dots just would not eat and scratched so I am considering another fresh water bath on the return and possibly treating with meds for anything else a yellow might get.

We went by the local shop that sold us the sick fish today and was told rather rudely that ALL tanks have ich. I wont be doing buisness there anymore. one thing to sell a sick fish, another to treat people rudely and speak nonsense after you do it.

[plaz]

Tjay - sounds like you are on the right track and almost through what I know was not a fun time with the quarantines! I've read so many posts that said ich is always present - one reason I was so careful when I quarantined was to see if they were possibly right (although I figured the experts were)! Since I had ich in the tank originally and now have 3 tangs (Yellow and 2 Blue Hippos) back in for a few months with absolutely no ich - I know it is possible. Hang in there!

Triggerfish, I don't blame you for not wanting to take a chance with the health of the Blenny. They are cool fish! I'll keep my fingers crossed that you don't have to go through the routine again. Also, I agree the 72 days is probably not possible in warm temps - I just meant to hold out as long as you can because many people have posted that they experienced ich again after 4 or even 6 weeks fallow (although they may have cross-contaminated or something).

[tjay]

Well I know I am new to all of this. But I think you have to listen to those who have been before you.
The articles that I read in the sick fish forums were great. Steve Pro and others are to be commended for sharing the knowledge they have.

I do not buy into the all tanks have ich theory. We had our small tank up and running just fine with no problems until we bought this one fish home.

What makes me very sad is that the local fish shop has been totally terrible about handling it. I am in management and know customer service and how it is the life blood for a successful business. A simple act of acceptance of responsibility would have went a long way here. Instead we were treated as if we were ignorant.

I hate to buy livestock online, but at this point I would rather do that than deal with the likes of this shop.

[nikeboy_2001]

I have a outbreak of black ich in my tank, my mandarin fish died from it and my yellow tang has it now, my damsel and 2 clownfish seem fine, should i qt the yellow tang or empty out the fish and raise the temperature? Also would bubble tip anemones get affected by this?

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by plaz

I'll keep my fingers crossed that you don't have to go through the routine again. many people have posted that they experienced ich again after 4 or even 6 weeks fallow

thanks man..was looking at him real close last night..haven't noticed anything and he continues to act normally.

i have also heard of similiar situations, although not with a 6 week treatment, but with 4.
it is very possible that the hypo treatment was not as low as it should be 1009..but who knows for sure.

Originally posted by tjay

I do not buy into the all tanks have ich theory.

well, if you go by what the documentation states, then it wouldn't make much sense that the protozoan would constantly exist in the aquarium. the question is: How does a marine fish get infected in the wild? Where does this Cryptocaryon irritan originate from? if it can just "appear" out of nowhere then,,yes i can understand how it could possibly "always" be there. but that doesn't make much sense.

If the protozoan can only originate in the wild and there are ways to basically ensure that it does not get transported to our systems(copper, hypo); then our tanks can remain "ich free".
that's what i plan on monitoring for 1 year with this thread.


nikeboy- inverts should be immune to any type of marine ich.
not too familiar with the black ich,,not sure if it is some other type of protozoan,,as yellow tangs seem to be one of the only fish affected by it for some reason. i would, nonetheless, remove the tang and treat until it clears up for 6 weeks or so.

[markcasto]

Interesting...I am now dealing with whitespot in my tank and have moved all the fish out into QT tanks and treating them with hyposalinity.This is the first time I have ever done this and I am finding it very scary.I bought a refractomer to help get the readings right and it makes a big difference.
IF a fish can grow immune to whitespot does this mean if it came from an infected tank that it will have to go through hypo as well?I put my flame angel and clowns in my 20gallon QT and so far I have seen nothing on them if after say 4 weeks I still see nothing does this mean they are safe to go back once my main tank is fallow for 6 weeks or could they still be harbouring it?
I put a link on my webpage regarding another forum discussion I had on all this trying hard to gather as much info as possible and have read steve pros article. He told me to leave all the fish out and I panicked and put them back to soon only having to get them out again as the ich progressed.No fun..

[plaz]

If you are watching the fish closely in a quarantine (several times thoughout every day), there is a good chance he is not harboring ich. I did not treat my Goby, but I did put an oversized uv on his quarantine and did a few big water changes just in case. However, my ordeal lasted a few months - so I really watched him for a long time. It turned out fine though. If you pay close attention and he goes 6-8 weeks with absolutely no symptoms, the advice I got was that you can then be 99% sure you aren't reintroducing ich.

[markcasto]

I took all the fish out last week I have 2 big tangs and 8 chromis in a 55gallon QT that are one day away from being at 1.009 salinity they all seem fine and I have seen no more ich on them.In my 20 gallon I placed my flame angel and 4 clowns I have seen nothing on them yet so Im just leaving them without hypo treatment for now.

I had run out of space so I put my other fish 2 banggai
cardinals a yellow tang mandarin and cleaner wrasse in the refuguim untill my qt tank was ready.The only fish in there that got itch so far was my mandarin I have raised the temp to 80 but theres live rock in there so they will have to go into QT when its ready.The mandarin is free of it now but I am keeping a close eye on him. And the fuge is seperated from the main tank.

I lost 2 copperbands and a reef fish last time but I didnt have any ammonia remover and treated with copper. This time I am taking it slowly watching and treating as I go along.

[tjay]

Well I am now past my one week mark.
the yellow tang seems to be fine. Holding salinity at .09 and fighting amonia with daily changes.

My display tank is keeping me suprised even fallow.

I saw a small feather duster just free floating in the water today

one of my cleaner shrimp molted for the second time since in my tank and left a perfectly intact shell of himself on the rock. ( I take it these need to be removed? )

I watched my plate coral eat a couple mysis shrimp amazing.

both my mushrooms have developed little buds right in the center. I hope that is a good thing.

My one rock has just bloomed with bunches of small fan worms. (food for the copper band when I can find an aussie and get it QT'd)

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by markcasto
if after say 4 weeks I still see nothing does this mean they are safe to go back once my main tank is fallow for 6 weeks or could they still be harbouring it?

i would say that if the fish show no signs of the parasite after 6 weeks then they should be fine..not 4 but 6.

tjay--congrats on the 1st week man..that's cool your still gettin something from the tank..only thing i really get to see is my sea slug crapping..
here is the fallow tank,,just to think there are a bunch of nasty critters roaming in there..but dying a slow starving death.



bad pic of the q-tank..holding up steady..water change due on sat.

[tjay]

Here is a shot of some of the criters in the fallow main tank

[markcasto]

Nice one tjay and triggerfish.Its a ***** having to battle with ammonia and do all those water changes no doubt but the plus side is I get to arrange stuff in my main tank with out freaking out my tangs and being attacked by my two yellow tailed damsel fish. I have been using Amquel+ to treat any ammonia peeks along with water changes.I bought one of those seachem badges as well but its not doing anything rather rely on my test kit.


I had an invasion of tiny fanworms a month ago when I uped the calcium with kakwasser drip that I made from an old milk bottle.The copper band munched on them all day long.Sad to have lost them both. From now on I will always have some filter foam in my main tank ready for instant biological filter for my QT tanks.Oh well back to work...

[markcasto]

mmm. dying a slow starving death yes indeed I hope everyone of the little buggers dies.

[markcasto]

Progress so far...
The 52 gallon QT is now down to .09 first week up on this one and the ich is not showing.The two large regal tangs and chromis are all feeding well and ammonia levels are ok.
The 22 gallon QT has just had water changes no treatment utill I see ich on any of the fish one flame angel 4 clowns.
The refuguim holding the other fish 2 cardinals 1 cleaner wrasse mandarin and yellow tang has been raised to 80 and after 3 days the madarin is clear of it.
So far so good and the hyposalinity treatment seems to be doing the job in the 52 gallon,great because I really love my big regal tangs and I want them back in my main tank ich free.

[markcasto]

Heres what it was like with fish...

[plaz]

Sounds great! Just one more word of caution, because I love the Regal tangs too. I lost one doing hypo after I was 3 weeks in and thought everything was safe. I knew part of the cycle was broken (I battled traces of NO 1, 2 and 3 with 2 25% water changes daily). I had 1 medium Regal in a 20 gallon long with 2 small Chromis. Everyone ate and looked great. One day (3 weeks into .09), I had company and didn't do the test that afternoon as I always had. In the morning I delayed th water change. Figured they would be okay until night since everyone looked good. The Chromis were, the Regal wasn't. I came home that same afternoon and he looked cramped and was swimming funny. I immediately started a series of water changes. However, the ammonia poisoning from the one time spike was not reversable. I saved the Chromis but not that wonderful Regal. Sorry for the long story, but I don't want it to happen to you. I have done a lot of reading since, unless you had loads of bacteria to start with it is almost impossible to maintain a cycle when doing hypo. If you are seeing traces of ammonia and/or nitrite, you want to be very careful and do the water changes and testing at least once a day (probably twice). Another thing you could do is to add more filter media (ceramic is good) and get bio-spira marine. It will bring up the cycle quickly.

Good luck once again!