Questions on Seahorses Changing Color

[Faerl]

I have two yellow Kuda which were yellow a couple of weeks ago and are now turning black. We all know they change color and I'm ok if they stay black but figured it might be a good time to try some experiments on getting to change back. As a result I had some questions.

For now I'm going to try is to set the background of the tank to a bright blue. I've read this seems to help. I'm also going to start enriching their food. They eat primarily frozen mysis with a supplement of live brine now. According to a couple of online articles there are some vitamins (for lack of a better term) that don't exist in mysis but are necessary for seahorses to keep their colors (carotenoids for yellow/oranges etc).

So, I've seen several posts and discussions on various forums about people having their horses change. In many cases just to the environment etc. I'm curious though if anyone else has had any success in having a seahorse change to black or something dull, changed something (environment, food etc) and were able to coax them into changing again. If so, what worked for them?

Also, if mysis doesn't have all these trace elements to keep their colors... does anyone know where they get those elements from in nature?

[inktomi]

I suspect that mysis lack some nutrients simply because they're raised on a very specific "mysis breeding diet" that's designed to have them grow large quickly.

I'd suggest, if you want to get a more complete nutritional spread, soaking your mysis in a couple different things. For example, I feed my tank twice a day, and soak one of the feedings in either Selcon or Kent Zoe (alternating). I figure this gives a better mix of things than either would alone, since one is mostly fatty acids (Selcon) and the other is vitamins + fatty acids (Kent Zoe).

[Faerl]

That's what I'm guessing. Sounds like what they don't get are the vitamins that come from plant life (which, presumably in the wild their food eats and thus passes onto the horses). I ordered some Spectra Vital (supposedly the same thing as vibrance) the other day. I'm thinking I'll try enriching with that and phytoplankton on alternating feedings. Both should give a more natural spread and if nothing else are good for the tank in general.

[ReefNutPA]

FWIW... all my seahorses (20+) are a rich golden yellow color. I never enrich their frozen mysis. Most of the enrichment will never get into the frozen mysis - and whatever coats the mysis will come off once it's dumped in the tank degrading the water quality. You should be enriching live brine, if you use it for supplemental feeding.

That said, stress and environmental factors are the main cause of seahorses turning black/losing their color. I would first look at the tank situation and any tankmates before thinking it's the food. My guess is they aren't happy with something and/or are stressed.

Tom

[Faerl]

No tankmates to speak of (just some snails, hermits). Theyv'e only been in there for a week or so, maybe just getting used to things. I've heard a lot of people though who have their horses go from yellow to black so it didn't shock me when it happened.

If you're not enriching your mysis, are you enriching your live brine shrimp? If so, with what?

[rayjay]

Anyone out there been able to keep the bright red and orange of reidi species from SA?

[ScooterTDI]

[QUOTE=inktomi;16679664]I suspect that mysis lack some nutrients simply because they're raised on a very specific "mysis breeding diet" that's designed to have them grow large quickly.
QUOTE]

I'm not aware of any commercially available frozen mysis that aren't wild caught. As far as frozen mysis goes, there is not any special mysis breeding diet.

Scott

[ScooterTDI]

Originally Posted by ReefNutPA

.
That said, stress and environmental factors are the main cause of seahorses turning black/losing their color. I would first look at the tank situation and any tankmates before thinking it's the food. My guess is they aren't happy with something and/or are stressed.

Tom

I'm not so sure about this. IME with fuscus, their color is largely determined by their surroundings. Everytime I place fuscus in a tank with live rock, they turn dark brown. It seems as if this is an effort to camoflage themselves. If I keep them in a bare bottom tank with no live rock, they turn a golden color.

Scott

[Faerl]

Here's the premature report:

Well my experiment is still quite early obviously. Tested my water again.

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates <10
PH - 7.8
Salinity - 1.027
Live rock, hermits (seahorse safe), sexy shrimp, one of those coral background images.

So, my levels have always been decent. However PH tends to be low since it's an enclosed system. Enough to keep things reasonable but not as high as it should be. Also, read a bit more and apparently the 'ideal' for horses is closer to 8.2 (high side of the 'ok range'). So I'm adding PH+ to the tank to slowing bring it up to 8.2. Need to test it tonight but based on when I've used the stuff before it'll probably be around 8.0.

Salt level as well was a bit off. It's on the acceptable range but most sights say the horses like it on the lower side. So, I did a water change with more Ro and brought it down to 1.02 (over the course of a day or so). They did seem a bit more active after this, though I don't now if it was the salt levels adjusting or everything getting stirred up from the water changed that caused that.

The new enrichment's are shipping but I have phytoplankton here so I decided to start with that. I thawed the mysis and let it refrigerate in phytoplankton for a couple of hours. I know, I've heard both here and other places that enriching frozen mysis doesn't get much to the horses. But, I figure if anything gets to them then it's a start and anything that washes off ends up in tank anyway which, considering I put phytoplankton in the tank every few days, won't hurt anything. I also picked up some more live mysis and before refrigerating them gave them extra phyto as well.

For environment I took down the reef background and replaced it with a bright blue background on the back and side of the tank (one side edges up against a dull gray desk so it blocks that now).

The result? Well, I did the background change around 3:00 and by the evening I could actually see some yellow in their hide. Not a ton mind you but enough of a change that I know it wasn't just wishful thinking. Considering the short time frame I'm guessing the background was the major factor, one of my horses watched that blue for a good hour. The PH/Salt levels could have played a part as well, easier to breath, move around etc. By morning they were black again but they were sleeping, lights were out etc. so that's not a surprise. The process, even if it works, will take a week or two (took them that long to change). Still, a little encouraging at least. I'm going to test everything again tonight and I'll let you know what happens.

[Octoshark]

Originally Posted by ScooterTDI

I'm not so sure about this. IME with fuscus, their color is largely determined by their surroundings.

I believe that is what he means when he says "environmental factors." The surrounding habitat is an environmental factor.

[namxas]

IME, other than water chemistry issues, it really depends on the SH. we did an experiment with erectus using both yellow and red backgrounds, and the SH didn't even twitch in terms of color. the same male from this experiment turned copper when hitched in the middle of a colt coral, but no other backgrounds or hitches made any difference.

i've had barbs go green in the presence of green macro, and another that didn't.

i've had yellow reidi fade to white (the color of new LR) and go back to bright yellow upon adding green macro. we've also had reidi go from yellow to tan to white to pink to orange and back to yellow with no changes to their planted tank at all.

Renee had a big WC reidi that stayed deep crimson even tho it was in a blue-back tank.

it was all up to the individual SH.

[Faerl]

Namxas,

That's that's kinda why I'm experimenting and asking if anyone had any luck with it. Sounds like you've got some first hand experience and it's more or less what I was figuring. To a certain degree it's known that some horses just prefer certain colors. Add to that the fact that certain horses are only able to change to certain colors (yellow kuda's black-yellow etc) while others have a higher range. We know that their environment affects it because most people that get them see some kind of change.

My guess, and it's just a theory mind you, is that each horse has a set of dispositions and capabilities. In other words, within the given set of colors the horse is able to change to, it has its own preferences. For some that may be to change every week. For environment I've heard color is a touchy thing, some SH's match the color of their environment, some will contrast it (I hear many breeders use bright blue to encourage yellows etc).

So then the experiment becomes to first remove anything that could possibly stress the horse (don't think there's anything but the salt level/PH might make it a bit less comfortable so fixing that). Then, to influence the colors in the tank to see if I can coax them yellow again. We'll see if it works or not.

[Faerl]

So, small update. Got home today and something appears to be working. They're noticeably lighter. Hardly yellow, but it's now a step or so closer to yellow from the black they were. PH is till low so that can be ruled out as a cause. Which leaves saltinity level or the blue background. I'm going to tape the excess blue I have temporarily to the front of the tank tomorrow while I'm at work and see if that encourages them at all.

[ScooterTDI]

Originally Posted by Octoshark

I believe that is what he means when he says "environmental factors." The surrounding habitat is an environmental factor.

I realize that, but there was the implication that if a seahorse adopts a dark color it is likely because there is some negative aspect of environment that is stressing the horse. IME, seahorses that adopt darker coloration are often not stressed, but just attempting to remain camoflaged.

Scott

[rayjay]

I would agree with Scott.
To me, stress colour change is temporary and only while the stress is still there and the horse will return to normal when stress is removed.
It would be very unusual to have continual stress without some other signs indicating it, and if there were, I'd certainly be concerned about the safety of the seahorse.

[Octoshark]

Originally Posted by ScooterTDI

I realize that, but there was the implication that if a seahorse adopts a dark color it is likely because there is some negative aspect of environment that is stressing the horse. IME, seahorses that adopt darker coloration are often not stressed, but just attempting to remain camoflaged.

Scott

Gotcha

[timinnl]

What size tank do you have them it & how long it been set up?

[Faerl]

It's a 10 gallon tall. The two horses are the only inhabitants other than hermits/snails and they're still juveniles (they're supposed to get max 5-6", should end up with about 5x their height in vertical space when fully grown). Tank has been running for 2 months with parameters stable for the past 6 weeks.

I don't think it's stress but we'll see. They continue to change color each day. By end of day they're brighter and then they darken up a bit by morning. If environment is doing it then that would make sense (can't see anything but dark at night). Suppose I could leave a night light on for them.

[namxas]

10 gals for a pair of kuda is an accident waiting to happen. kuda can get pretty large as adults, and height or no, 10 gals just isn't enuff water volume for them. they may be stressed because they're so confined.

just letting you know that you have an upgrade in your future...

[rayjay]

I have a friend with six kuda's about a year and a half old and they are already 7" and growing.
I don't know the dimensions of your 10g tall, but the tallest I've ever seen a ten was 20" so I don't see how you would get 5X their height even if they were only to grow 5" which is very unlikely.
The recommended tank size for a pair of normal sized seahorses is 29/30g with an extra 15g for each additional pair I believe.
I prefer to go with a sump in addition to the tank to increase the total volume for more forgiving water parameters.

[timinnl]

Originally Posted by Faerl

It's a 10 gallon tall. The two horses are the only inhabitants other than hermits/snails and they're still juveniles (they're supposed to get max 5-6", should end up with about 5x their height in vertical space when fully grown). Tank has been running for 2 months with parameters stable for the past 6 weeks.

I don't think it's stress but we'll see. They continue to change color each day. By end of day they're brighter and then they darken up a bit by morning. If environment is doing it then that would make sense (can't see anything but dark at night). Suppose I could leave a night light on for them.

Greetings from Amsterdam,

Don't take this the wrong way, but rayjay & namxas are correct in what they are telling you. Please try to upgrade the tank to a minimum one at least.

I think the dark color you are seeing is due to them being stress. 6 weeks into the cycle is a bit soon to have them in the tank. Speaking only for myself, I like to cycle my tanks a minimum of 12 weeks.

(Tank set up 8 weeks minus 2 weeks since you put them in = 6 weeks cycle correct?)

Remember they also need the width, height & depth of the tank to feel comfortable in.

The hermit crab is a very painful disaster waiting to happen. Claws + Seahorses = NIP TAILS.

Maybe you should consider this as a QT & buy a larger tank for them.

Kind regards,

Tim

[rayjay]

I have a friend with six kuda's about a year and a half old and they are already 7" and growing.
I don't know the dimensions of your 10g tall, but the tallest I've ever seen a ten was 20" so I don't see how you would get 5X their height even if they were only to grow 5" which is very unlikely.
The recommended tank size for a pair of normal sized seahorses is 29/30g with an extra 15g for each additional pair I believe.
I prefer to go with a sump in addition to the tank to increase the total volume for more forgiving water parameters.

[Faerl]

Valid points and I'll likely be upgrading the tank at some point. That said I don't believe tank size is what's causing the color change at the moment. I've seen the same type horses in LFS stores for months in spaces 1/16 of this size and still keep their color. The breeders also have them in much more confined spaces for a lot longer than this without it occurring either. As they get older I could see them eventually growing out the tank but it should be plenty of room for the near term.

The hermits in the tank are of a variety that seahorse source said were safe for horses, even dwarfs seahorses.

[timinnl]

Originally Posted by Faerl

Valid points and I'll likely be upgrading the tank at some point. That said I don't believe tank size is what's causing the color change at the moment. I've seen the same type horses in LFS stores for months in spaces 1/16 of this size and still keep their color. The breeders also have them in much more confined spaces for a lot longer than this without it occurring either. As they get older I could see them eventually growing out the tank but it should be plenty of room for the near term.

The hermits in the tank are of a variety that seahorse source said were safe for horses, even dwarfs seahorses.

May I ask where you are located? Are you sure it is the same seahorses in the 1/16 space at the pet shop? If it is the same ones for months, then they are not growing or there is not much demand for them where you live.

The breeder might have them more confined, but usually it is with a flow thru system or with larger filteration unit.

May I please have a link where SH source said they were ok?

Take Care,

Tim

[rayjay]

Originally Posted by Faerl

Valid points and I'll likely be upgrading the tank at some point. That said I don't believe tank size is what's causing the color change at the moment. I've seen the same type horses in LFS stores for months in spaces 1/16 of this size and still keep their color. The breeders also have them in much more confined spaces for a lot longer than this without it occurring either. As they get older I could see them eventually growing out the tank but it should be plenty of room for the near term.

The hermits in the tank are of a variety that seahorse source said were safe for horses, even dwarfs seahorses.

As Tim mentioned, in the store, the tank is probably part of a system with more water involved. Also, because there usually is little to nothing in the way of decor, they will mostly all colour according to just a base colour, or if a substrate exists, to blend with the substrate.
In breeding facilities, the offshore seahorses are shipped out at about 3 months of age so they don't have older ones in confined spaces.
Even so, their rearing systems are just that, a system with more to it than just the cement tank that they are reared in, with a lot more water and biological filtration involved.
Better places like seahorsesourc.com and seahorsecorral.com will grow the seahorses to an older stage, usually to a point they can be sexed, but still don't keep the same densities as they age as when they are younger. Again, their tanks are just part of a much larger volume and biological system.
While you may be correct in that the tank size is not causing the colour changes, it may more certainly be a cause of stress. I would liken it to someone placing a yellow tang in a 10g tank. Can be done for a bit, but sooner or later the stress will almost definitely out itself and result in disaster.