Algae Scrubber Basics

[Vladec]

I am sure that the LEDs are not suitable for Algae Scrubber.
Requires the full spectrum of light - this is the basis for Algae Scrubber

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by Vladec

I am sure that the LEDs are not suitable for Algae Scrubber.
Requires the full spectrum of light - this is the basis for Algae Scrubber

I'm not sure what post you are replying to...but no, you don't want full spectrum LEDs for an Algae Scrubber. You only really need 660nm Deep Red, any maybe some supplemental spectrum in the blue-violet range. But 660 is all you really "need".

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by ohioreef71

Screen is 7''x10" and lit on each side by 1 23w 2700k bulb. My nitrates are in check now and overall I'm happy with results.

Yes, results are all that really matters, so even if you don't have "perfect" flow, light, etc...it comes down to what works for your system.

[Vladec]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

I'm not sure what post you are replying to...but no, you don't want full spectrum LEDs for an Algae Scrubber. You only really need 660nm Deep Red, any maybe some supplemental spectrum in the blue-violet range. But 660 is all you really "need".

I do not agree.

The sun is necessary for algae. So it is necessary to try to repeat.

The advantage of algae is that scrubber on it grow many species of algae, and most importantly, they have a different color!

Color indicates a favorable light spectrum.

An experiment - one grid to put two fluorescent lamps 2700K and 4100k and saw the difference in the types of algae growing in a wide range spectrum.
Algae grow those for which an enabling environment and the light! (close to nature) Different species of algae in different ways to change the composition of sea water.

[Vladec]

Colored squares in previous message - show reflection of the light spectrum.



The following figure - Specified absorption spectrum of light (color filters lie on white paper.).

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by Vladec

I do not agree.

The sun is necessary for algae. So it is necessary to try to repeat.

The advantage of algae is that scrubber on it grow many species of algae, and most importantly, they have a different color!

Color indicates a favorable light spectrum.

An experiment - one grid to put two fluorescent lamps 2700K and 4100k and saw the difference in the types of algae growing in a wide range spectrum.
Algae grow those for which an enabling environment and the light! (close to nature) Different species of algae in different ways to change the composition of sea water.

I understand your point and I had planned an experiment quite some time ago in order to try a few of these ideas out - a bandwidth test, essentially. Line up a bunch of scrubbers with various active bandwidths and a stock solution of water + fertilizer or something like that, and see which grew best. But I just haven't had the time.

What I can tell you is that while you do not agree, and that is OK, I have 3 scrubbers on tanks I own personally or help to maintain that run scrubbers with only 660nm and 445nm and they work extremely well. 2 of them run only a scrubber and are moderately to heavily fed, no algae in the tank, no nitrates, and very low (and stable) phosphates.

On top of that, literally hundreds of scrubbers out there running the exact same setup I run - only 660nm Deep Red and 445nm Royal Blue - and they do the job. I'm not saying that adding other spectra is completely unnecessary - I'm just saying that my personal opinion is that the additional spectra would very likely only get you another small percentage increase in production - likely, something along the lines of 5-10%, maybe as much as 15%.

On the other hand, if you look at CFL and T5HO scrubbers which are running 2700K-3000K lamps, these grow algae better than their counterparts running 4100K, 5000K, 6500K, etc. These combinations of fluorescent sources have been tried, and that's why the 2700-3000K was settled upon as the baseline to use for algae scrubbers. Because it worked better in real life applications.

Furthermore, what I have found is that LED based algae scrubbers that run 660 and 445 grow nearly exclusively green hair algae, whereas CFL scrubber running a wider-spectrum 2700K lamp (which contains a variance of spectra due to the nature of fluorescent sources, i.e. phosphors to shift UV light into visible/useable spectra) tends to grow a lot of other types of algae, like yellow spongey stuff, or gooey growth, or dark growth, etc, unless it's very closely matched to the system (i.e. tank, flow, lighting, etc are all in 'synch'). The GHA is what grows the fastest and is what "we" generally want to grow. My opinion on the LED growth is that the bandwidth is focused down to what is primarily needed to grow GHA (660 mainly) and I have proven this to myself 100x over. The extra bandwidth that is provided by fluorescent sources seems to actually cause the growth that I consider "nuisance" growth. That yellow gooey growth, etc, is not filamentous, so it grows in a sheet/mass and blocks light out to lower layers which can drastically reduce the effectiveness of the scrubber's filtration capability.

Early on in the experiments with LED algae scrubbers, people did try to use a mixture of different LED so try to achieve that wide-bandwidth mixture. They used warm whites, neutral whites, 630 reds, 660 reds, cool whites, blues, etc, all mixed together. They pretty much all came to the same conclusion and that was that all you really need is (primarily) 660nm Deep Red to effectively grow algae for the purposes of the algae scrubber.

Also I don't feel that plants are exactly analogous to algae given the rather unique application of the algae scrubber.

[jedimasterben]

Originally Posted by Vladec

By the way, this photo shows why having 660nm and 450nm works. Look at the top-middle slide. We are trying to grow green algae. Why add green when it will simply be reflected. You proved yourself wrong in your own post.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Man I could have made my post so much shorter. Dang work that I was trying to avoid.

[Vladec]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

I understand your point and I had planned an experiment quite some time ago in order to try a few of these ideas out - a bandwidth test, essentially. Line up a bunch of scrubbers with various active bandwidths and a stock solution of water + fertilizer or something like that, and see which grew best. But I just haven't had the time.

What I can tell you is that while you do not agree, and that is OK, I have 3 scrubbers on tanks I own personally or help to maintain that run scrubbers with only 660nm and 445nm and they work extremely well. 2 of them run only a scrubber and are moderately to heavily fed, no algae in the tank, no nitrates, and very low (and stable) phosphates.

On top of that, literally hundreds of scrubbers out there running the exact same setup I run - only 660nm Deep Red and 445nm Royal Blue - and they do the job. I'm not saying that adding other spectra is completely unnecessary - I'm just saying that my personal opinion is that the additional spectra would very likely only get you another small percentage increase in production - likely, something along the lines of 5-10%, maybe as much as 15%.

On the other hand, if you look at CFL and T5HO scrubbers which are running 2700K-3000K lamps, these grow algae better than their counterparts running 4100K, 5000K, 6500K, etc. These combinations of fluorescent sources have been tried, and that's why the 2700-3000K was settled upon as the baseline to use for algae scrubbers. Because it worked better in real life applications.

Furthermore, what I have found is that LED based algae scrubbers that run 660 and 445 grow nearly exclusively green hair algae, whereas CFL scrubber running a wider-spectrum 2700K lamp (which contains a variance of spectra due to the nature of fluorescent sources, i.e. phosphors to shift UV light into visible/useable spectra) tends to grow a lot of other types of algae, like yellow spongey stuff, or gooey growth, or dark growth, etc, unless it's very closely matched to the system (i.e. tank, flow, lighting, etc are all in 'synch'). The GHA is what grows the fastest and is what "we" generally want to grow. My opinion on the LED growth is that the bandwidth is focused down to what is primarily needed to grow GHA (660 mainly) and I have proven this to myself 100x over. The extra bandwidth that is provided by fluorescent sources seems to actually cause the growth that I consider "nuisance" growth. That yellow gooey growth, etc, is not filamentous, so it grows in a sheet/mass and blocks light out to lower layers which can drastically reduce the effectiveness of the scrubber's filtration capability.

Early on in the experiments with LED algae scrubbers, people did try to use a mixture of different LED so try to achieve that wide-bandwidth mixture. They used warm whites, neutral whites, 630 reds, 660 reds, cool whites, blues, etc, all mixed together. They pretty much all came to the same conclusion and that was that all you really need is (primarily) 660nm Deep Red to effectively grow algae for the purposes of the algae scrubber.

Also I don't feel that plants are exactly analogous to algae given the rather unique application of the algae scrubber.

You are talking about the mass of green algae, and I'm talking about the diversity of species growing on the grid at the same time under full spectrum light. Each algae from the water takes what it needs. Do different types of algae - different needs! This is the main purpose of scrubber - diversity of algae grow - thereby aligning the parameters of sea water.


If you are interested in the mass of algae - caulerpa can be used and chaetomorpha - You agree?


After using for a couple of years I took a scrubber as unnecessary (had a lot of experiments)
For today aquarium 102g.

Originally Posted by jedimasterben

By the way, this photo shows why having 660nm and 450nm works. Look at the top-middle slide. We are trying to grow green algae. Why add green when it will simply be reflected. You proved yourself wrong in your own post.

This simplified picture.
Everything is much more difficult - if you look at the first picture with the grass.

[jedimasterben]

Originally Posted by Vladec

If you are interested in the mass of algae - caulerpa can be used and chaetomorpha - You agree?

Well, considering that we are interested only in growing turf and hair algae on the screen...

[Vladec]

Originally Posted by jedimasterben

Well, considering that we are interested only in growing turf and hair algae on the screen...

This is mistake.

[jedimasterben]

Originally Posted by Vladec

This is mistake.

No, it's not. Are you in the wrong thread? This one is about algal turf scrubbers, not about other macroalgaes.


(though, I've grown many macroalgaes, and switching from a 4500K white LED setup to a 660nm and 450nm setup I experienced a significant increase in growth, showing that this combination with the same PAR is more efficient at growth).

[Vladec]

Originally Posted by jedimasterben

No, it's not. Are you in the wrong thread? This one is about algal turf scrubbers, not about other macroalgaes.


(though, I've grown many macroalgaes, and switching from a 4500K white LED setup to a 660nm and 450nm setup I experienced a significant increase in growth, showing that this combination with the same PAR is more efficient at growth).

You are all mixed up - srubber algae, and algae in the bay sump.
I will not argue - I told only my opinion.

[jedimasterben]

Originally Posted by Vladec

You are all mixed up - srubber algae, and algae in the bay sump.
I will not argue - I told only my opinion.

We can all have opinions, and that's fine, but your opinion doesn't match up to the results.

Have you actually tried using narrow bandwidth vs 'full spectrum' over an algae scrubber or a macroalgae refugium?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Taken at various times, so pics of units are not necessarily that harvest from that unit at that time, but they are harvests from that unit/tank

Example 1





Example 2













Example 3





I'm growing algae just fine, and in huge amounts, under 660 + 445

[Swope2bc]

Not that I agree with him, but i believe that he is suggesting that GHA alone is not sufficient to balance the system. He implies that you need a diversity of algae growth on the scrubber to achieve this balance. Perhaps one of you could illustrate (again, since I know it's been covered in a variety of forms in this thread before) how the GHA alone can and does out perform the other algae types and that it does indeed provide stable and balanced nutrient levels...

[Vladec]

I'm talking about the advantages of algae scrubber!

For example -
Makroalgae refugium stop the growth (algae stopped growing - hopefully you quadrupeds such cases) and algae scrubber continues to grow algae.

Quotes from the Internet -
In addition to chlorophyll in the membranes are also present carotenoids, yellow, orange, red or brown pigments additional modifier which absorbs certain portions of the solar spectrum, the energy of these beams is transmitted chlorophyll molecules. Thus, they facilitate the use of the rays that are not absorbed by the chlorophyll.

[Vladec]

The properties of the lower algae that grow those species for which there is food and a range of sun!

At different depths grow those types that have adapted to the conditions.Each alga requires an individual composition of sea water consumption - each algae need in an exclusive part of the sea water.
This is appreciated and algae scrubber.

Originally Posted by Vladec

I'm talking about the advantages of algae scrubber!
For example -
Makroalgae refugium stop the growth (algae stopped growing - hopefully you quadrupeds such cases) and algae scrubber continues to grow algae.

This is the value of the algae scrubber - aligns the parameters of sea water due to the many species of algae.


And more theory -

For such purposes - LEDs for illumination printing premises (a high index of color!)
Do not confuse a full spectrum of light - a dense spectrum of light!
Three thin peak RGB - does not mean good filling of adjacent spectrum.

Do not look at advertising spectrogram - see real indications of measurements in the laboratory!

Virtual example -



Top (metal halide), and the bottom LED.

Do not they will be able to grow algae that require that the dark areas (bottom LED) of the picture.

[Swope2bc]

Your theory makes sense in the idea of growing vast kinds of algae, but the point being made by Turbo is that we don't need all of these algae types in order to balance our reef tanks.

[jedimasterben]

Originally Posted by Vladec

Do not they will be able to grow algae that require that the dark areas (bottom LED) of the picture.

Do you know of any that actually do? I certainly don't. They all contain chlorophylls a and b, which absorb primarily at 430nm & 660nm, and 450nm and 630nm, respectively. They have accessory pigments that are used to capture more light using a bit more spectra IF they are not able to capture enough of the listed above during the illumination period. If you give them enough of what they need using specific spectra, they would have no need to use their accessory pigments, otherwise they would not be accessory pigments and would be primary.


I have grown all kinds of macroalgae under 660nm/450nm. Chaetomorpha, gracilaria, bryothamnion, four or so species of caulerpa, codium, halimeda, galaxaura, padina, ulva, botryocladia, halymenia, and probably several others that I am forgetting. Every one of them had significant growth. You keep trying to tell us that it is impossible to grow algae under anything other than basically sunlight, but that is simply not true.

[herring_fish]

If you say things often enough, it becomes the common knowledge or lore, based on repetition alone. Actually the short turf alga grows fastest in the right high energy environments. It is hard to achieve optimal growth rates.

GHA may work best in most common scrubbers. It grows plenty fast enough but it is not the fastEST. What it is, …is that it is more convenient and easy to grow, easy to harvest. That is why you want GHA.

Regardless of energy levels, lighting, flow rates and screen matrix that you have, typically, there will be a dominate algae that likes to grow in your scrubber. You can play around with those conditions to get or change what you want but very often each scrubber will have more of one type at a time rather than a highly divers garden so to speak.

There aren’t a lot of peer reviewed studies on red and blue yet and the older ones point to white light but I look at what professional growers are using now and that is what they are doing. Personally, when I restart my scrubber, I will go along with the crowd and have mostly red with a little blue because those are the primary requirements for plants in general. I’m going to go with the pros.

I will however, also have a smidgen of white as well, just in case. Go Figure

[Vladec]

You have not understood correctly.

I do not say that under the LEDs will not grow!
In hydroponics great use LEDs.

If you read my post again - you see what I'm talking about the alignment parameters of sea water by growing many types of algae.

Different species of algae - absorb various micro and macro elements!


I wrote above -

For example -
Makroalgae refugium stop the growth (algae stopped growing - hopefully you quadrupeds such cases) and algae scrubber continues to grow algae.

Аn example of which can only algae scrubber - avoiding mass growth of diatoms, etc.

[hkgar]

Originally Posted by Vladec

If you read my post again - you see what I'm talking about the alignment parameters of sea water by growing many types of algae.

If this statem is provably true then Vladec, if not, then every one else is correct - you only need GHA.

Show us the studies one way or the other. If not, then it is only opinion.

Can it be demonstrated that tanks are better of now than they were 5 or so years ago, before LED's became the fad. I did the LED thing with the DT lighting, and have gone back to MH

[Vladec]

It's the nature.

If I understand the processes in the marine aquarium - I gave up on the algae scrubber. Aquarium looks just as good.

The aquarium 102g - 1 pump flow 2 heater 100W, Light (150W MH + 2 T5 + 7pcs. LED Blue)
No more equipment in the aquarium there.

[thejuggernaut]