Treating with Vitamin C - Page 24

ludnix · 02/22/2010, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ludnix

You would be mixing an acid with a base, which I understand as a bad thing, but vitamin C must be dosed soon after being mixed with water so it probably would work out.

Here's the calculator again for those who want to double check their math:
http://www.reefsome.com/articles/Vitamin-C-Dosing

Woops, that was supposed to say "Wouldn't work out".

spw4949 · 02/22/2010, 08:55 AM

Okay so I'm 5 days in on dosing VC, noticed last night ALL of my caulerpa in my fuge is bleached & about 90% dead....I did read that my macro may stop growing & so was expecting that but wasn't expecting a total die off.....no KH problems & all my inhabitants seem to be fine but I have to be honest, I'm a little worried that there is no more macro in my system, should I be? Also, how long in before I can expect to see results from the dosing? I'm sure just like anything else it depends on the system & what not but I am interested to know for those of you dosing that do in fact see results what the time frame may be.....thanks in advance.....

Pufferpunk · 02/22/2010, 09:46 AM

Sounds like you are seeing results. I haven't had macro in my fuge in 2 years. Didn't die though, just disappeared until it was all gone. I used cheato, so that might be the difference. Be sure you pull out the dead stuff.

I think it took about 3 week, before I noticed a really big difference in my corals but some have reported zoas opening up that were closed for some time, days after dosing.

spw4949 · 02/22/2010, 10:19 AM

Thanks for the response Puffer, yes I am definately seeing something, like you said I started seeing increased skimmate almost immediately & now the macro die off so although I am not seeingany change in my zoas I know that the sodium ascorbate is definately being absorbed in my system, I am keeping an eye on my KH & it has been just as stable as usual so no concerns there, so I guess so far so good.....thanks again....

biecacka · 02/24/2010, 06:53 PM

so puffer, is this a liquid form of VC and you directly insert it into a good flowing area of the tank?

Pufferpunk · 02/24/2010, 06:55 PM

It is a buffered crystal form of Sodium ascorbate. I add it to my sump or under the skimmer cup for smaller, sumpless tanks.

bawla47 · 02/24/2010, 07:42 PM

sorry if this has been asked before, im currently dosing a vsv mixture. should i only do 1 or the other as i believe vit c also is a carbon source?

vsv is a vodka sugar vinegar mixure.

lbaldrey · 02/24/2010, 11:53 PM

2 weeks dosing now and im getting red cyano...dosing little more than 1/4 tsp in 70G total water volume...twice a day...Skimmer is a H&S 150...Im getting a cup full of wettish skimmate every 3-4 days...

Am i dosing too much?

Tank is a mixed 60G reef filled with corals...

Pufferpunk · 02/24/2010, 11:55 PM

That is common when 1st dosing. Treat as usual by blowing it off & adding more flow. I have used Chemiclean to treat also.

lbaldrey · 02/25/2010, 12:02 AM

Good to know...Thanks...

ludnix · 02/25/2010, 01:08 AM

There's a new discussion on Vitamin-C going on in the Reef Chemistry Forum asking about the role of vitamin-C in corals.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...php?p=16653679

Also something I hadn't read before, Aquatic Community's article on leather corals suggests vitamin-C is a good substance to dose for propagating leather corals.
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/corals/leather.php

Pufferpunk · 02/25/2010, 10:16 AM

Wonderful, I'll be reading those.

spw4949 · 02/25/2010, 11:00 AM

I'm a week in & haven't seen any cyano, should I expect it?

Pufferpunk · 02/25/2010, 01:30 PM

Not necessarily...

lbaldrey · 02/28/2010, 05:09 AM

Ive stopped dosing temporarily as the cyano is really taking over my tank and corals...Its not the vitamin C for sure.

Im dealing with a bigger problem of 2 fish that have begun mowing down my corals, A siganus corallinus and a regal tang...Ive had to feed extra nori just so they would leave the coral alone but that too didnt work out cause they ate all the extra nori and mowed down my zoanthids and hence the extra bioload has cause the outbreak...

I will begin dosing again in 2 weeks or so...be very careful with the fish you add to your tank...

Pufferpunk · 02/28/2010, 12:19 PM

BAD fishies!

ceci1357 · 03/01/2010, 05:43 AM

I just thought I would post some ideas I've gathered along the way. Dosing carbon sources is one thing many have tried including me. The info here is my personal experience and not reefer gods law. First, when single source carbon dosing you are primarily feeding one type of bacteria. This may lead to a monoculture developing in your tank that may stop functioning over time. This is the reason people dose vsv or some other multi make up of carbon components, to keep more strains active. I have been wary of that for no other reason than intuition.
Second, DSB's present a different set of circumstances when carbon dosing.They are a treasure trove of nutrients,locked up in layers of the sand bed. The bacteria love this food so they accumalate there often. Since the water column is void of nitrate and phosphate its like a picnic in the park. In some of the pictures posted here you can see evidence of that.Brown slimy looking growths. Also since the nutrient equation has shifted, this sometimes brings on cases of cyano and/or dinoflagellates which usually disappear. Chemicals move from an area of high concentration to an area of lower concentration usually I think, so those locked up nutrients are diffusing back into the water column on a continuing basis. If you stop dosing the nitrate will return sometimes in force because you have stopped feeding the limited strain of bacteria you have and no one is home to process it.
In my case I had to lower the sand bed level over time. Then we come to alkalinity. Under higher akalinities some people have complained about acro's losing tissue at the bases and lightening or bleaching of tips.Hence the UNLS guru's use low alkalinity salts to combat this danger. They say that lower Ph and alkalinity have shown no detriment in corals overall health. While running a ULNS and controlled addition of nutrients of different types lead to more color, ect. In that mix somewhere is carbon dosing.

ceci1357 · 03/01/2010, 06:00 AM

Also, when dosing, you can create situations that are detrimental to certain inverterbates. The six yea old maxima clam in my tank gave up the ghost. I think this was because of the lack of nitrates suspended in the water column. I also lost a six year old bubble coral at the same time. I think someone else in the post experienced that. This is just conjecture on my part.
I personally believe that many of the improvements described here come from the benefits of carbon dosing,lower nutrient levels, increased light penetration/water clarity,lower water column load levels of nutrients. In UNLS systems you are kinda starving things in a way, so naturally they are going to open more/extend more, to say "hey give me that light" or passing morsel of food.The actual vitamin portion probaly does have curing effects, but I would bank more on the low nutient levels.
Well, I'm off my soapbox now. Hope these help. My overall advice is to go slow and be prepared to dose a very long time if you have a DSB.

ceci1357 · 03/01/2010, 06:22 AM

Also, there is the recycling of nutrients. On a reef nutrients are recycled over and over and over. The urge to feed, feed, feed, may not be a good thing. Most reef systems are middlin' at best at removing nutrients. While the dosing is excellent at converting these nutrients to biomass(bacteria), you will actually be adding a large bacterial load to support if you overfeed. Systems that use zeolith based stones attempt to recycle nutrients and cut nitrate production at the source of ammonia and ammonium.

2slo4me · 03/01/2010, 07:06 AM

ive dosed my tank in the past with vitamin c with only great affects!

Pufferpunk · 03/01/2010, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Also, when dosing, you can create situations that are detrimental to certain inverterbates. The six yea old maxima clam in my tank gave up the ghost. I think this was because of the lack of nitrates suspended in the water column. I also lost a six year old bubble coral at the same time. I think someone else in the post experienced that. This is just conjecture on my part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2slo4me

ive dosed my tank in the past with vitamin c with only great affects!

Same here. My clam & all my LPS only improved with dosing. Never seemed to harm anything.

ceci1357 · 03/01/2010, 12:42 PM

I was just trying to convey info. Sorry for the dyslexic swapping of ULNS and UNLS

ludnix · 03/01/2010, 01:01 PM

Concentration gradients are not universal. I do not think it is safe to say that nutrients locked in a DSB will be encouraged to come from the lack of nutrients in the water column without evidence.

ceci1357 · 03/01/2010, 05:09 PM

So,a sand bed is not as solid, for lack of a better word, as a semi permeable membrane? Gases can pass, sulfides, sulfates, salt concentrations, but not nutrients?

pdabj · 03/01/2010, 07:54 PM

Pufffer has any on tried ascorbic acid instead of the sodium ascorbate. The sodium ascorbate is driving my alk to far up.

02/22/2010, 08:55 AM	#577
spw4949 Registered Member. Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Albany, N.Y. Posts: 1,594	Okay so I'm 5 days in on dosing VC, noticed last night ALL of my caulerpa in my fuge is bleached & about 90% dead....I did read that my macro may stop growing & so was expecting that but wasn't expecting a total die off.....no KH problems & all my inhabitants seem to be fine but I have to be honest, I'm a little worried that there is no more macro in my system, should I be? Also, how long in before I can expect to see results from the dosing? I'm sure just like anything else it depends on the system & what not but I am interested to know for those of you dosing that do in fact see results what the time frame may be.....thanks in advance..... __________________ Steve Current Tank Info: 46 gal bowfront, mixed reef, 2x250W current outer orbit w/4x39W T5 ,10 gal fuge....38 gallon aggressive FOWLR, 10 gallon sump.

02/22/2010, 10:19 AM	#579
spw4949 Registered Member. Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Albany, N.Y. Posts: 1,594	Thanks for the response Puffer, yes I am definately seeing something, like you said I started seeing increased skimmate almost immediately & now the macro die off so although I am not seeingany change in my zoas I know that the sodium ascorbate is definately being absorbed in my system, I am keeping an eye on my KH & it has been just as stable as usual so no concerns there, so I guess so far so good.....thanks again.... __________________ Steve Current Tank Info: 46 gal bowfront, mixed reef, 2x250W current outer orbit w/4x39W T5 ,10 gal fuge....38 gallon aggressive FOWLR, 10 gallon sump.

02/24/2010, 11:53 PM	#583
lbaldrey Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates Posts: 401	2 weeks dosing now and im getting red cyano...dosing little more than 1/4 tsp in 70G total water volume...twice a day...Skimmer is a H&S 150...Im getting a cup full of wettish skimmate every 3-4 days... Am i dosing too much? Tank is a mixed 60G reef filled with corals... __________________ Let Him Who Hath Made No Mistakes Cast The First Live Rock... Current Tank Info: 175G Mixed Reef, Aqua Excel Skimmer, 2x150w 20K Radium, 200w VHO Actinics, MP40x2

02/25/2010, 12:02 AM	#585
lbaldrey Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates Posts: 401	Good to know...Thanks... __________________ Let Him Who Hath Made No Mistakes Cast The First Live Rock... Current Tank Info: 175G Mixed Reef, Aqua Excel Skimmer, 2x150w 20K Radium, 200w VHO Actinics, MP40x2

02/25/2010, 01:08 AM	#586
ludnix Registered Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: California Posts: 3,031	There's a new discussion on Vitamin-C going on in the Reef Chemistry Forum asking about the role of vitamin-C in corals. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...php?p=16653679 Also something I hadn't read before, Aquatic Community's article on leather corals suggests vitamin-C is a good substance to dose for propagating leather corals. http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/corals/leather.php __________________ -Eric Sutter Current Tank Info: 14g Biocube

02/22/2010, 09:46 AM	#578
Pufferpunk Moved On Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Franklin Park, IL Posts: 21,027	Sounds like you are seeing results. I haven't had macro in my fuge in 2 years. Didn't die though, just disappeared until it was all gone. I used cheato, so that might be the difference. Be sure you pull out the dead stuff. I think it took about 3 week, before I noticed a really big difference in my corals but some have reported zoas opening up that were closed for some time, days after dosing.

02/24/2010, 06:53 PM	#580
biecacka Registered Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Columbus Ohio Posts: 6,361	so puffer, is this a liquid form of VC and you directly insert it into a good flowing area of the tank?

02/24/2010, 06:55 PM	#581
Pufferpunk Moved On Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Franklin Park, IL Posts: 21,027	It is a buffered crystal form of Sodium ascorbate. I add it to my sump or under the skimmer cup for smaller, sumpless tanks.

02/24/2010, 07:42 PM	#582
bawla47 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: fort lauderdale, FL Posts: 2,190	sorry if this has been asked before, im currently dosing a vsv mixture. should i only do 1 or the other as i believe vit c also is a carbon source? vsv is a vodka sugar vinegar mixure.

02/24/2010, 11:55 PM	#584
Pufferpunk Moved On Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Franklin Park, IL Posts: 21,027	That is common when 1st dosing. Treat as usual by blowing it off & adding more flow. I have used Chemiclean to treat also.

02/25/2010, 10:16 AM	#587
Pufferpunk Moved On Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Franklin Park, IL Posts: 21,027	Wonderful, I'll be reading those.

02/25/2010, 11:00 AM	#588
spw4949 Registered Member. Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Albany, N.Y. Posts: 1,594	I'm a week in & haven't seen any cyano, should I expect it? __________________ Steve Current Tank Info: 46 gal bowfront, mixed reef, 2x250W current outer orbit w/4x39W T5 ,10 gal fuge....38 gallon aggressive FOWLR, 10 gallon sump.

02/25/2010, 01:30 PM	#589
Pufferpunk Moved On Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Franklin Park, IL Posts: 21,027	Not necessarily...

02/28/2010, 05:09 AM	#590
lbaldrey Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates Posts: 401	Ive stopped dosing temporarily as the cyano is really taking over my tank and corals...Its not the vitamin C for sure. Im dealing with a bigger problem of 2 fish that have begun mowing down my corals, A siganus corallinus and a regal tang...Ive had to feed extra nori just so they would leave the coral alone but that too didnt work out cause they ate all the extra nori and mowed down my zoanthids and hence the extra bioload has cause the outbreak... I will begin dosing again in 2 weeks or so...be very careful with the fish you add to your tank... __________________ Let Him Who Hath Made No Mistakes Cast The First Live Rock... Current Tank Info: 175G Mixed Reef, Aqua Excel Skimmer, 2x150w 20K Radium, 200w VHO Actinics, MP40x2

02/28/2010, 12:19 PM	#591
Pufferpunk Moved On Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Franklin Park, IL Posts: 21,027	BAD fishies!

03/01/2010, 05:43 AM	#592
ceci1357 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: florida Posts: 178	some thoughts I just thought I would post some ideas I've gathered along the way. Dosing carbon sources is one thing many have tried including me. The info here is my personal experience and not reefer gods law. First, when single source carbon dosing you are primarily feeding one type of bacteria. This may lead to a monoculture developing in your tank that may stop functioning over time. This is the reason people dose vsv or some other multi make up of carbon components, to keep more strains active. I have been wary of that for no other reason than intuition. Second, DSB's present a different set of circumstances when carbon dosing.They are a treasure trove of nutrients,locked up in layers of the sand bed. The bacteria love this food so they accumalate there often. Since the water column is void of nitrate and phosphate its like a picnic in the park. In some of the pictures posted here you can see evidence of that.Brown slimy looking growths. Also since the nutrient equation has shifted, this sometimes brings on cases of cyano and/or dinoflagellates which usually disappear. Chemicals move from an area of high concentration to an area of lower concentration usually I think, so those locked up nutrients are diffusing back into the water column on a continuing basis. If you stop dosing the nitrate will return sometimes in force because you have stopped feeding the limited strain of bacteria you have and no one is home to process it. In my case I had to lower the sand bed level over time. Then we come to alkalinity. Under higher akalinities some people have complained about acro's losing tissue at the bases and lightening or bleaching of tips.Hence the UNLS guru's use low alkalinity salts to combat this danger. They say that lower Ph and alkalinity have shown no detriment in corals overall health. While running a ULNS and controlled addition of nutrients of different types lead to more color, ect. In that mix somewhere is carbon dosing.

03/01/2010, 06:00 AM	#593
ceci1357 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: florida Posts: 178	some thougts part2 Also, when dosing, you can create situations that are detrimental to certain inverterbates. The six yea old maxima clam in my tank gave up the ghost. I think this was because of the lack of nitrates suspended in the water column. I also lost a six year old bubble coral at the same time. I think someone else in the post experienced that. This is just conjecture on my part. I personally believe that many of the improvements described here come from the benefits of carbon dosing,lower nutrient levels, increased light penetration/water clarity,lower water column load levels of nutrients. In UNLS systems you are kinda starving things in a way, so naturally they are going to open more/extend more, to say "hey give me that light" or passing morsel of food.The actual vitamin portion probaly does have curing effects, but I would bank more on the low nutient levels. Well, I'm off my soapbox now. Hope these help. My overall advice is to go slow and be prepared to dose a very long time if you have a DSB.

03/01/2010, 06:22 AM	#594
ceci1357 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: florida Posts: 178	oops, I forgot Also, there is the recycling of nutrients. On a reef nutrients are recycled over and over and over. The urge to feed, feed, feed, may not be a good thing. Most reef systems are middlin' at best at removing nutrients. While the dosing is excellent at converting these nutrients to biomass(bacteria), you will actually be adding a large bacterial load to support if you overfeed. Systems that use zeolith based stones attempt to recycle nutrients and cut nitrate production at the source of ammonia and ammonium.

03/01/2010, 07:06 AM	#595
2slo4me Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: nyc Posts: 22	ive dosed my tank in the past with vitamin c with only great affects!

03/01/2010, 12:42 PM	#597
ceci1357 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: florida Posts: 178	no rain on the parade I was just trying to convey info. Sorry for the dyslexic swapping of ULNS and UNLS

03/01/2010, 01:01 PM	#598
ludnix Registered Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: California Posts: 3,031	Concentration gradients are not universal. I do not think it is safe to say that nutrients locked in a DSB will be encouraged to come from the lack of nutrients in the water column without evidence. __________________ -Eric Sutter Current Tank Info: 14g Biocube

03/01/2010, 05:09 PM	#599
ceci1357 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: florida Posts: 178	semi permeable? So,a sand bed is not as solid, for lack of a better word, as a semi permeable membrane? Gases can pass, sulfides, sulfates, salt concentrations, but not nutrients?

03/01/2010, 07:54 PM	#600
pdabj Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Fresno, Texas Posts: 67	Pufffer has any on tried ascorbic acid instead of the sodium ascorbate. The sodium ascorbate is driving my alk to far up.