Fallow period for cryptocaryon irritans (ich)

[longranger]

I am now so paranoid. QT on the fish I can deal with but QT for any and all inverts, corals, live rock etc is just so much work, at least for me as I am building a 110. I too would gladly pay a premium price for a reef safe Crypto treatment.

[OrQidz]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Yes. Fallow means NO fish. Your fish may have no visible signs of ich and still have have ich. All hosts must be removed, and this means all fish.

snorvich, thank you for your informative posts! I know this is the ich thread, but I don't see one for velvet. I just lost a royal gramma to what I think was velvet based on the symptoms. I have a yellow clown goby in the same tank who has shown no signs of infection. Can I assume the tank is NOT fallow as long as he is in there? Ideally I can catch him and put him in QT. Which I now have set up (lesson learned).

Thank you!

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by OrQidz

snorvich, thank you for your informative posts! I know this is the ich thread, but I don't see one for velvet. I just lost a royal gramma to what I think was velvet based on the symptoms. I have a yellow clown goby in the same tank who has shown no signs of infection. Can I assume the tank is NOT fallow as long as he is in there? Ideally I can catch him and put him in QT. Which I now have set up (lesson learned).

Thank you!

The fallow period (no fish in the tank) for velvet is six weeks.

[OrQidz]

Thank you! I appreciate the response. Now I just have to catch that goby. We will see if he can be tempted into the fish trap.

[twseal77]

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I got two, two spotted gobies from a local store and got ich in my 24Gallon Nano. Unfortunatley, my two clown fish died along with the gobies. Lesson Learned about QT tanks. After 8 years this is the first time i've had this problem. I got a RedSea max 130D 34 Gallon (it was used and already cycled so i could get things going quickly) I moved the live rock and corals as well as the sand from my old tank that had ich and put new water in the new tank. I discarded the water from the old tank. It has been 4 weeks since all of this. Would it be safe at this point to consider putting new fish in (since i moved the rock, coral, sand, etc. and got rid of old water) or should i wait another 2 or three weeks? I do realize from the forum that 8 weeks would be best. The real question is, since it is a new tank and all water removed, only the rock, corals, sand, etc moved will that reduce the fallow time?

[ishmael]

This thread is very interesting. I wonder though.

The major factors that I have come across, both personally and in reading these boards, which contribute to fish disease are over-stocking and/or over-feeding. Result....poor water quality.

By imparting this "fallow" period on the guilty hobbiest, you are driving home the importance of resisting both of these urges...he/she stays in fish-buying limbo! During this same time the nitrates, etc in the tank are dramatically reduced and any new fish added have much better odds at stronger health.

So the point I am trying to make is that discussion of which period works best must consider the differences in pre- and post- fallow periods of fish types, sizes, numbers, as well as feeding regimens.

I know personally that I have learned my lesson and will adjust my stocking plans accordingly.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by twseal77

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I got two, two spotted gobies from a local store and got ich in my 24Gallon Nano. Unfortunatley, my two clown fish died along with the gobies. Lesson Learned about QT tanks. After 8 years this is the first time i've had this problem. I got a RedSea max 130D 34 Gallon (it was used and already cycled so i could get things going quickly) I moved the live rock and corals as well as the sand from my old tank that had ich and put new water in the new tank. I discarded the water from the old tank. It has been 4 weeks since all of this. Would it be safe at this point to consider putting new fish in (since i moved the rock, coral, sand, etc. and got rid of old water) or should i wait another 2 or three weeks? I do realize from the forum that 8 weeks would be best. The real question is, since it is a new tank and all water removed, only the rock, corals, sand, etc moved will that reduce the fallow time?

If anything that was wet during the infection period remains wet, I would wait a total of at least 9 weeks.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by snorvich

A normal distribution is a very important statistical data distribution pattern occurring in many natural phenomena, such as height, longevity of a member of a population e.g. human being.s For this discussion we are focused on the life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans, otherwise known as marine ich. Certain data, when graphed as a histogram (data on the horizontal axis, amount of data on the vertical axis), creates a bell-shaped curve known as a normal curve, or normal distribution.

Normal distributions are symmetrical with a single central peak at the mean (average) of the data. The shape of the curve is described as bell-shaped with the graph falling off evenly on either side of the mean. Fifty percent of the distribution lies to the left of the mean and fifty percent lies to the right of the mean. The average life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans is 3 weeks.

The spread of a normal distribution is controlled by the standard deviation. The smaller the standard deviation the more concentrated the data. Unfortunately, there is no published value for the standard deviation of the life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans.

If you look at the percentages of population members within a standard deviation of the mean, we see that approximately 19.1% of normally distributed data is located between the mean (the peak) and 0.5 standard deviations to the right (or left) of the mean. For Cryptocaryon irritans, we are going to assume that 68% of the members lie within one standard deviation of the mean.

If you add percentages, you will see that approximately:
• 68% of the distribution lies within one standard deviation of the mean.
• 95% of the distribution lies within two standard deviations of the mean.
• 99.7% of the distribution lies within three standard deviations of the mean.

These percentages are known as the "empirical rule". What this means for Cryptocaryon irritans is that leaving a tank fallow for 3 weeks will give you a 68% chance that you have eradicated the parasite, leaving a tank fallow for 6 weeks will give you a 95% chance of eradication, but if you want 99.7% chance, you will leave the tank fallow for 9 weeks. That is the reason you see different numbers being used on Reef Central and in the literature.

I see confusion when different numbers are used for the required fallow period to make sure you tank is ich free. Perhaps this will clarify. Or not!

Why don't at least 0.0000000001% of human beings live to be 130 years old?

This distribution thing is not valid in this sense.

There is no element of chance: if you leave a tank without fish for for three months at 75F or warmer, ich will be gone.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by wooden_reefer

Why don't at least 0.0000000001% of human beings live to be 130 years old?

This distribution thing is not valid in this sense.

There is no element of chance: if you leave a tank without fish for for three months at 75F or warmer, ich will be gone.

You are totally mis-interpreting very well researched data. Your use of an imaginary " 0.0000000001%" is not even in the same ballpark as the data used in the study quoted on this thread.

[lxeroxl]

How long should corals and inverts be qt for before going into display tank thatare coming from a tank that has known ich? I know they can't host ich, but can have attached eggs just want to make use that ich is not going to be introduced into display tank.

Thanks

[chirojosh]

I due 10wks from the time the last invert/coral was added to QT

[reeferman1128]

Snorvich,

Is hypo still a valid step in eliminating ich? I am setting up a new tank as we speak(type). All my fish are going to go into the new tank. This will eventually be a sps tank but will obviously be several month before thank is suitable for sps's.

My question can I set it to hypo and put fish in it essentially using the new tank as a hypo QT tank as it is cycling? By the time it is ready for corals if should be stocked with all desirable fish and all will have gone through a multi month hypo period.

By cycling I am not referring to the initial cycle but a long cycle (months) for sps's.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by reeferman1128

Snorvich,

Is hypo still a valid step in eliminating ich? I am setting up a new tank as we speak(type). All my fish are going to go into the new tank. This will eventually be a sps tank but will obviously be several month before thank is suitable for sps's.

My question can I set it to hypo and put fish in it essentially using the new tank as a hypo QT tank as it is cycling? By the time it is ready for corals if should be stocked with all desirable fish and all will have gone through a multi month hypo period.

By cycling I am not referring to the initial cycle but a long cycle (months) for sps's.

The odds of properly executing hypo, is, in my opinion, low to very low. In any case hypo, if executed properly only has an effect on (most but not all strains of) ich. It will have no effect on velvet, brook, etc. So, in essence, this is not a good strategy. In my blog, I suggest tank transfer followed by observation for 30 days while being treated with PP. But everyone can pursue whatever strategy they choose.

[kenith]

I just went 9 weeks fallow (no cross contamination and 9 weeks started post last coral purchase) and on day 5 post re-introduction of the fishes, I see a single spot of ich on the Achilles and a single spot on the chevron. I will monitor and hope it's not crypt. If it is, I'm gonna bleach and murriatic a acid all live rock and start over!! Any idea what may have gone wrong?


Btw- I used TT method for 9 weeks (did not have a cycled tank)

[jsjonesrdh]

All excellent information above. I wanted to interject.

People are asking about adding inverts or LR during a fallow period. Unless you can be guarenteed that the stock did not come from a display where fish cross contamination was possible (at the LFS, this means about 0%) you are potentially introducing new tomonts into the display and thus restarting the clock.

[Steven0000]

Greatly appreciate your well researched and informative post. It is extremely difficult to find such valuable information.

[gk2904]

Quick question....

During the fallow period I know I have to remove all my fish, but I also have 2 snowflake eels in the DT. Do I need to remove them as well? Any input will be much appreciated.

[zzlonewolf]

Originally Posted by gk2904

Quick question....

During the fallow period I know I have to remove all my fish, but I also have 2 snowflake eels in the DT. Do I need to remove them as well? Any input will be much appreciated.

yes, last time I fail because I can't catch my garden ell.

[Hens4Fish]

Yeah, ich is not taht big of a deal. If your fish are healthy, they will get over ich. I have had ich in my tank for a eyar now. When I introduce a new fish into the tank, everyone gets it again from stress, but everyone gets over it without a problem. ust keep them healthy and well fed.

[freefallen4key]

what is the best copper treatment, and how will you know when ich is completely out of your tank? just count 72 days on the calandar ? will my yellow head morey eel need to be in the qt tank too?

[nphsmith]

Does anyone have a copy of the graph that is missing from the OP?

[dentnshell]

Originally Posted by andyrm66

So, Steve, does the copper period need to be the same as the fallow period? No one wants to address this issue. 10 weeks fallow, but 4 copper doesnt seem like a good cure.

I know you posted this a long time ago but I had the same question. To answer this you look at the ich cycle. First we assume you are putting the fish in a QT that does not contain ich (more importantly in the cyst cycle.) During the cycle the parasite leaves the fish and is exposed to copper and is killed "Before" the cyst cycle.
Therefore a situation where the ich is encysted for 72 days is not an issue in a copper QT situation, because we killed the ich prior to the cyst stage. The time frame we are concerned about is the amount of time it takes the parasite to leave the host skin / mucous membranes. This takes roughly 28 days.

I believe that copper only kills the ich parasite while it is in the free floating stage. So your question "is" valid if the ich parasite was already present in your tank before adding copper or you are treating a fish only tank directly in the tank. Because the ich could have already encysted and be present in the bottom of the tank for up to 72 days before "hatching" and becoming exposed to copper.

Experts please tell me if I am off on my thinking as I had the same question as andyrm66, but my research has brought me to the conclusion above.

[appellativo]

dentnshell, THANK YOU for FINALLY answering the question!

It makes sense to me but what do I know...

[Mark]

Copper kills the cryptocaryon and most inverts, as it is a lethal toxin to them. The fallow method eradicates crypto by breaking the lifecycle. Without fish hosts, the crypto cannot complete the lifecycle. Therefore, these are different modes of attack. To eliminate via the fallow method, we have to ensure every cyst has hatched and failed to find a host, hence the 10 weeks. Copper nukes the cysts and other phases, hence less treatment time. If we could treat reef tanks with copper, we wouldn't need 10 weeks. But copper is essentially toxic to all inverts, including your corals. Not a viable option.

[dentnshell]

Originally Posted by appellativo

dentnshell, THANK YOU for FINALLY answering the question!

It makes sense to me but what do I know...

You are welcome. I struggled with the same thing. I always understood the fallow period. I understood that copper had to take place in a QT. I always struggled with 4 weeks copper if ICH were dormant for 72 days. Then it (my wife) hit me.
When we actually follow the cycle with how it all goes down. It makes sense. Reading these forums I am constantly amazed at the people that don't want to know the WHY. They simply take information at face value and go with it. There are many days I wish I could be that way. But I have to know why. Glad I could help.