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Unread 03/29/2007, 07:10 PM   #51
MaryBebo
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So sorry to hear this, but thanks for sharing and making others aware. I hope you get better soon

I too have had some issues while just working in my tank. I have this type of zoo that have grown onto my overflow box. When I do a water change it exposes them and the smell is awful. I also have a rock that is covered with them and it to is close to the top. There have been several times that I have the allergy like symptoms after working in my tank. My nose feels VERY stuffy and I cough for a day or two. I haven't read about anyone else doing this and now I know that there is something to it. I guess a mask would help. Our tanks have a lot of smelly corals and not just zoos. I don't know if it is that I am just allergic to them or if it is just the zoos. My xenia smells,toad leathers,zoos. So who knows, but I do know that It does do something with my breathing.


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Unread 03/30/2007, 04:53 AM   #52
steveoutlaw
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Quote:
Originally posted by vessxpress1
Man, here we go again.

There's no reason to be scared to death of zoanthids. I've handled them with bare hands a lot. I've had one squirt me directly in the eye. Nothing has ever happened to me because of zoanthids.
Ok, that it quite possible the stupidest and most illogical rambling thought in this post. Guess what genius......I've handled them hundreds of time with my bear hands and nothing ever happened to me either. I even said in the post "Don't get me wrong.......I'm not telling everyone to go and get rid of their zoos. I just want to make people aware of how dangerous they can be and to be careful when handling them."


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Unread 03/30/2007, 08:59 AM   #53
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Guys also in my post I am not saying get ride of them.. Heck I still have the ones that made me ill in my tank also. Not all of them are as toxic either. Its funny though the ones that seemed to make him sick sound alot like the ones I have. They are a lite greeish color with strips on them.. They mutiple like crazy and sprout up all over in wierd places. I have no allergies to anythign I know of so I am not sure if that effects it at all.. All I know is after me touching them and eating because I was not aware they were on the rock got my heart beating wierd and legg cramping for about a week. My wife was ****ed I would not go to the hospital cause my heart seems to litterly skip beats.

Jeff


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Unread 03/30/2007, 07:07 PM   #54
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Thanks for the heads-up, I always wear gloves when I'm working with/around zoas and palys but I hadn't thouht about the chance of inhaling stuff. And I need to get better about wearing a face shield when fragging them :/ I haven't ever, and don't intend to, boiled anything with zoas on it, but it's good to have the info out there.

-Sonja


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Unread 03/30/2007, 07:45 PM   #55
vessxpress1
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Quote:
Originally posted by steveoutlaw
Ok, that it quite possible the stupidest and most illogical rambling thought in this post. Guess what genius......I've handled them hundreds of time with my bear hands and nothing ever happened to me either. I even said in the post "Don't get me wrong.......I'm not telling everyone to go and get rid of their zoos. I just want to make people aware of how dangerous they can be and to be careful when handling them."
Stupid and illogical? I'm just stating facts. I didn't say you were telling people to get rid of all their zoanthids. Other people pretty much were. These threads always turn into panic instead of realizing you just have to be careful.

Your info is appreciated and I will certainly keep this story in mind.


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Unread 03/31/2007, 01:34 AM   #56
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The actual toxins that caused this HORRIBLE reaction are irrelevent. What IS relevant is that in the process of handling these zoos something created a toxic steam that has greatly impacted his current quality of life and hopefully no permanent damage has been done and these symptoms will clear in short time. This info is important to create awareness so that this doesn't happen to anyone else.

steveoutlaw, I hope you get some relief soon and make sure to keep up with your doctor's visits to make sure that nothing gets worse. Thank you for sharing your story.


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Unread 03/31/2007, 08:02 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by A.T.T.R
"The fact remains that I inhaled the steam from boiling the zoanthids and it closed up my lungs. The doctors all agreed that an aerosol toxin breathed in "
yup and i want to know what that was. cause that is scary as hell!
I agree with this. There's so much stuff living on LR, much of it potentially toxic if in direct contact with your lungs, I'd hesitate to say for sure that it's from the palytoxin. It may be from that, but it could also be an aerosolized irritant from one of the 1000s of other organisms living in your tank.

Steve, I hope things get better for you.

Quote:
The actual toxins that caused this HORRIBLE reaction are irrelevent. What IS relevant is that in the process of handling these zoos something created a toxic steam that has greatly impacted his current quality of life and hopefully no permanent damage has been done and these symptoms will clear in short time. This info is important to create awareness so that this doesn't happen to anyone else.
I partially agree with you. I agree that it's important to realize the potential life impact. However, I disagree that the cause is irrelevant. Let's say the actual cause (hypothetically), came from some widgets on the rock, rather than the zoanthids. Now let's say someone else reads this thread, and they're planning on pouring some boiling water over their rocks. They look and they avoid treating any rocks that have zoanthids, but end up treating some with tons of these toxic widgets. Obviously then what causes the reaction becomes much more relevant.

Dave


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Unread 03/31/2007, 08:50 AM   #58
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IM not trying to downplay toxins at all here but think it merits mentioning that inhaleing ANY steam is potentially bad for the lungs...... Steam is hot and burns are bad especially in the lungs and or throat.

Good luck and hope you get better soon, my wife struggles with adult onset asthma, it can be handled but it sure seems to be a hassle.


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Unread 03/31/2007, 09:06 AM   #59
rooroo
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Julian Sprung has written about palytoxin in zoanthids and this exact reaction.

Quote:
A strange side note to this is the anecdotal observation I reported in my column Reef Notes in FAMA magazine that this toxin or another one associated with zoanthids may be able to be aerosolized. An aquarist trying to rid his live rocks of a species of Protopalythoa decided to remove the rocks and spray boiling water on them to kill them. A friend of his contacted me after the aquarist was in the hospital and in serious condition, the doctors unable to determine what had caused a serious reaction and respiratory distress. I pointed out the possibility of a palytoxin reaction, but was skeptical about the aerosol or "toxic fumes" that the aquarist believed made him become ill suddenly. The aquarist later recovered, but slowly. In any case, one should be extremely careful when handling zoanthids, Protopalythoa and Palythoa spp., in particular. Rinse your hands thoroughly with soap and water immediately after contacting them.
From this article.


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Unread 03/31/2007, 09:47 AM   #60
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Wow I cannot believe people are trying to downplay this guys case. Regardless of the toxin that caused his problem I don't think any of us has the equipment readily available to find the exact chemical that caused this problem. Sure I have lots of CNC equipment to build my own stuff at work but I won't use it for my hobby and I imagine that people that have chromatograph equipment at work may feel the same way about using it for their hobby. The level of research to isolate the particular toxin that caused this is beyond any hobbyist scope and should be ignored. The lesson should be that zoos and palys can pack a punch and should be treated with care.

That being said I would not get the full arm gloves recommended by so many here. When I started in the saltwater side of fishkeeping I read a similar experience and I also got the same gloves. The problem with them is that they are so thick that it is very hard to get any dexterity when dealing with so many small things in our tanks. What I recommed is thiswww.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=DR-PN11B&Category_Code=coralfrag I use this item for taking macro out of my tank and it works great. I also will not touch my zoos without using that tool. I am a smoker and before I got those I would handle my zoos and maybe an hour later have a cigarette and my lips would numb a bit. Am I being a hypochondriachal? Fact is that there are many compounds in our tank that humans have not adapted to over time since humans and reefs have had very different evolutionary paths. Respect that and get the proper equiment to deal with that. I highly recommend the foreceps as you can have a lot of precision with that tool.


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Unread 04/04/2007, 08:51 AM   #61
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****UPDATE*****

Well, my airways are slowly opening back up. I'm still on steroids and an inhaler and will be for the next month. I have actually been contacted by the FDA for a sample of the offending polyp. apparently zoos contain more than one type of toxin and the FDA is looking at them and they ways they can affect people. Unfortunately we'll never know if it was actually the palytoxin that got me, but knowing that they contain multiple toxins will probably come in handy.


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Unread 04/04/2007, 09:47 AM   #62
IndyMatt
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That's excellent new! Best of luck to you and keep us updated of what the FDA finds.


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Unread 04/04/2007, 10:02 AM   #63
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While I realize Steveoutlaw may have been saying this in jest (and probably was having chest pain at the time) DO NOT LIE about having chest pain to get yourself seen in the ER faster!

1) the complaint "chest pain" sets a whole series of (unesscessary) diagnositc tests in motion and may end up with you getting admitted (depending on you age and risk factors) even if everything is normal. This also adds a lot of $$$ to your bill.

2) ERs around the country are overburdened and we are all cranky. The quickest way to tick us off is to lie about why you are there. Give us the honest complaint of why you came to the ER.

3) The time the MD spends with a bogus complaint of chest pain = less time to spend on other patients = increased likelyhood of missing something. And the patient we miss something on may be you!

Gald you are OK!

sedgro- Board Certified ED Physician


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Unread 04/04/2007, 10:41 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by abark

That being said I would not get the full arm gloves recommended by so many here. When I started in the saltwater side of fishkeeping I read a similar experience and I also got the same gloves. The problem with them is that they are so thick that it is very hard to get any dexterity when dealing with so many small things in our tanks. What I recommed is thiswww.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=DR-PN11B&Category_Code=coralfrag
We have those full-arm gloves I think you're talking about (I call them the Dexter's Lab gloves ) and I agree. We only use them for things that require no fine motor skills, like cleaning empty tanks. But these are great:

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/...tail/iid/20918

They aren't heavy enough to stay waterproof for long, so I put regular latex gloves over them. They'll keep your arm dry and leave you some dexterity, too.

-Sonja


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Unread 04/04/2007, 10:47 AM   #65
steveoutlaw
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Quote:
Originally posted by sedgro
While I realize Steveoutlaw may have been saying this in jest (and probably was having chest pain at the time) DO NOT LIE about having chest pain to get yourself seen in the ER faster!
I was saying that in jest. Although I was (and still am) having chest pains I was commenting on how fast they took my back when I mentioned that. I certainly don't want anybody lying about it to be seen.......cause that will just make me have to wait longer the next time I'm there!!


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Unread 04/04/2007, 11:53 AM   #66
tkeracer619
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Quote:
Originally posted by vessxpress1
Man, here we go again.

There's no reason to be scared to death of zoanthids. I've handled them with bare hands a lot. I've had one squirt me directly in the eye. Nothing has ever happened to me because of zoanthids.

If you have severe allergy problems, then yes, maybe it is a good idea to take extra precaution. If you're worried about this incident happening to you, just don't boil them and inhale the steam! Whether it was the cause or not.

If you get some zoos on a rock and you don't want them there any more, get a good chisel and a hammer. Break that part of the rock off and discard it.

There's no point in being terrified of zoos. Just wash your hands well after handling them.

I got squirt in the eye and couldn't see for a week. Sorry but just because you haven't had any problems, doesn't mean you won't.

I would hate for someone to read your post and come to the same lackadaisical approach to zoanthids. They CAN cause problems, sorry you can't accept this.

Steve glad things are going smoother.


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Unread 04/04/2007, 11:56 AM   #67
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If this thread gets out of hand it will be closed. There is no need to flame or start attacks on anyone. This will be the only warning.


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Unread 04/04/2007, 12:53 PM   #68
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I don't think anyone is attacking anyone. Just stating our opinion about comments that people who have no personal instances with a deadly toxin or bad reaction try to push over as law.

"Since it hasn't happened to me it doesn't happen" is the exact mentality that people need to get over.

It sucks when you are telling people "This happened to me" and they say "no it didn't" even when the hospital says "yes it looks like it did". The FDA wants his Zoas.... that should be enough to substantiate that something bad happened.

I have stong opinions on the matter since I was blind for a week, who cares what caused it, it was caused. It doesn't really matter if its palytoxin or not. What matters is people understand the dangers that the animals they keep present.

Thanks for the warning, it would suck to have this thread locked.


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Unread 04/04/2007, 01:11 PM   #69
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This thread has really taken off and I would like to invite all of you to read this OTHER thread I made on the Issue of zooanthid safety and how it could potentially be handled more carefully.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1065116


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Unread 04/04/2007, 05:24 PM   #70
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"Well, my airways are slowly opening back up. I'm still on steroids and an inhaler and will be for the next month. I have actually been contacted by the FDA for a sample of the offending polyp. apparently zoos contain more than one type of toxin and the FDA is looking at them and they ways they can affect people. Unfortunately we'll never know if it was actually the palytoxin that got me, but knowing that they contain multiple toxins will probably come in handy."

well FDA.... great. now they are gonna stop imports of ALL coral because a few are deadly ( KIDDING KIDDING! )

What exactly does the fda want to do with the polyp? ( i hope you charge them for the polyp.. )

are they going to actualy look at teh toxins.ORRRRRRR are they going to grow it and use the fumes from it in iraq to "FUMIGATE" caves ???

keep up updated about this. i think its cool that the fda wants to do somthing. and i really want to know what they find


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Unread 04/04/2007, 05:46 PM   #71
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Steve,
Best of luck on your recovery! I have handled, cut, many different zoos, but the palyathoa seem to pack the biggest punch to me, which is what you boiled. I do not get a bad reaction from zoanthids but I wear gloves and the whole bit when fragging palys-they also seem to squirt more often. Good luck!!!!


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Unread 04/04/2007, 06:58 PM   #72
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Steve,

I am glad to hear that things are getting better. I wish you a speedy recovery.
FWIW, you essentialy had a chemical burn from the toxin (whatever it was).
The inhaled steroids will help remodel your lung "units" helping you to breath easier.

To everyone else: thankfully bad outcomes with zoanthids are very rare. However, when they do occur they can be very dangerous, if not deadly. We should all just be more careful when messin' around with them (no more closing my eyes and mouth, holding my breath, and hoping for the best!).


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Unread 04/04/2007, 07:46 PM   #73
A.T.T.R
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thats what i ususualy do ( except when i have cuts on my hands from handling birds)
look away close my mouth and if it is a real juicy one. put a bag over it or have some one else hold a bag infront of my face.... or ( ONCE) put a fish bag over my head

goggles... isnt that a search engine?

anyways. hope ya get better fast. if you want to have some fun possiably threaten to sue the creator of the palys. there needs to be a warning printed on these things!

any one see the thread about the guy who had a friend offer to drink skimmate for 100 bucks... could you think how much toxins and bactiria are in that.
wonder what happens if you boil it?

a few years ago i had a dog die.
she was a 12 orso year old black lab. not sure if it was timing or what. but i had kent superbuffer DKH spill while i was cleaning the skimmer. of course i left both out while i went to get a dustpan. came back and some one messed with the stuff (not sure if some one sniffed what or drank anyting. but i know that the skimmate was on the floor now)

two days later (possiably sooner. 2 days later was the first time i saw it happen) my dog started having seizures.
now as i said. not sure if it is the buffer. the skimate or just bad timing...
but there is alot of junk you SHOULD ( but usualy arnt) careful around.

several of the big ones being
kalkwasser.
pvc glue
( to a lesser extent) florecant lamps (contain a small amount of mercury. seens that the uv sterilizer lamps contain more and after the life is up it collects on the glass.. .. dont see it hurting a adult but i could see some dumb kid using one as a sword and then deciding to lick up the magic juice after it breaks)

and the one im most worrried about and ALWAYS use gloves with. FRESH LR
there is a lot of threads of infections caused by the junk that comes in on LR ( not to mention the occasional mantis shrimp strike)


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Unread 04/04/2007, 09:56 PM   #74
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If anyone is scared to the point of needing to get rid of their zoo's, contact me and i will properly dispose of them.


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Unread 04/05/2007, 09:41 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by steveoutlaw
****UPDATE*****

Well, my airways are slowly opening back up. I'm still on steroids and an inhaler and will be for the next month. I have actually been contacted by the FDA for a sample of the offending polyp. apparently zoos contain more than one type of toxin and the FDA is looking at them and they ways they can affect people. Unfortunately we'll never know if it was actually the palytoxin that got me, but knowing that they contain multiple toxins will probably come in handy.

I would think the DoD, not FDA would want one...


Hoping for a quick recovery for you.


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