concrete live rock for walls and ledges - Page 12

karimwassef · 08/22/2014, 07:07 PM

I'm using kalkwasser ATO for calcium (and hydroxide for carbonates) and superbuffer dKH for alkalinity (and carbonates/bicarbonates). pH is what those two and my air CO2 level make it to be.

I have a calcium reactor in the works but I'm behind schedule...

karimwassef · 08/23/2014, 11:48 AM

My monster skimmer injects a lot of CO2, even with a connection to the outside.
I'm going to add a CO2 scrubber to the air intake. With my air volume, it's going to be a 5 gallon bucket of soda lime. I've been meaning to add activated carbon to my air intake anyway given the volume of outside content that I constantly inject into the tank.

Lavoisier · 08/23/2014, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karimwassef

...I have a calcium reactor in the works but I'm behind schedule...

"behind schedule" sounds familiar with my project

Quote:

Originally Posted by karimwassef

My monster skimmer injects a lot of CO2, even with a connection to the outside.
I'm going to add a CO2 scrubber to the air intake. With my air volume, it's going to be a 5 gallon bucket of soda lime. I've been meaning to add activated carbon to my air intake anyway given the volume of outside content that I constantly inject into the tank.

Be sure to post pics when you have created this.

Rognin · 08/23/2014, 01:41 PM

I've noticed an accelerated growth with higher dKH (around the 8.8 to 9.5). That's basically all purple up is anyhow.

karimwassef · 08/24/2014, 08:26 PM

Still no sign of coralline on the artificial rock after 5 weeks

I have seeded it with cured live rock with purple, violet and red. The uncured had pink but most of that disappeared.

I'm adding a phenomenal rate (IMO) of kalkwasser - 30 teaspoons of powder a week for about 700gallons of water with nearly no calcium using organisms except snails and what came in the live rock + glass shrimp, pods, 1 arrow crab and 1 emerald crab. I also have about 600lbs of aragonite sand between the DT and sump refugium.

11 dKH
300ppm Ca
8.2 pH
35 salinity
77F

No measurable phosphates or nitrates and my skimmer is up to 3 quarts of export black fluid a week.

I feed brine shrimp gel twice a week for the fish, nerites, shrimp, starfish and cocepods/amphipods.

karimwassef · 08/24/2014, 08:39 PM

I'm also adding magnesium and liquid calcium to try to increase my calcium ppm.
Mg test kit is incoming.

I'll be switching my salt brand after my current supply is consumed.

Also broke down and got purple up, a two part calcium booster, and iodine.

I added a ton (81) of hermit crabs and turbos (20) to control hair algae, I'm extending my blue LED window from 9 hours to 18 hours.

Did I miss anything?

karimwassef · 08/24/2014, 08:39 PM

Other than the requisite 'patience' of course... LOL.

Lavoisier · 08/25/2014, 05:22 AM

The only number that could be higher is calcium. Sounds like the proverbial patience at play.

karimwassef · 08/25/2014, 06:45 AM

And pH. It fluctuates from 8.0 to 8.2 so that's the motivation for the CO2 scrubber. I'd like to see it in the 8.2 to 8.4 range.

I really don't see why I can't raise my Ca given the lower pH I've been at and the abundant sources- kalkwasser, liquid, and aragonite.

The only explanation I can think of is a very low magnesium level but I guess the test kit will answer that. Given the quantity of Mg supplement I'm adding, the salt would have been very deficient to still be low.

Rognin · 08/25/2014, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karimwassef

And pH. It fluctuates from 8.0 to 8.2 so that's the motivation for the CO2 scrubber. I'd like to see it in the 8.2 to 8.4 range.

I really don't see why I can't raise my Ca given the lower pH I've been at and the abundant sources- kalkwasser, liquid, and aragonite.

The only explanation I can think of is a very low magnesium level but I guess the test kit will answer that. Given the quantity of Mg supplement I'm adding, the salt would have been very deficient to still be low.

Yup, if Mg is too low your Ca won't come up. And purple up is just a dKH supplement for alk and calcium. If you keep your params in check with a higher than avg alk you'll get coraline growth.

karimwassef · 08/25/2014, 07:25 PM

So Magnesium is at 1440 ppm. There should be no problem building up calcium.

I believe extending the photoperiod is improving pH from 8.2 to 8.25, but this is hard to prove with only one day. I expect that day over day, this will add up.

karimwassef · 08/27/2014, 09:57 PM

Ok. Going through the battery of attempts to raise calcium and pH without losing alkalinity:

I know these aren't all supposed to impact pH, but just to be complete:

Added FunkyOldReefMud - nothing
Added Purple Up - cloudy for a while, no pH increase.
Added Kent Tech I - nothing
Added Kent Turbo Calcium - no pH change
Added Kent super buffer dKH - nothing
Added Kent Tech CB part A - no pH change
Added Kent Tech CB part B - INCREASE pH from 8.2 to 8.3, cloud dissipates quickly and the pH has stayed ~8.28 after a couple of hours.

Not sure if this will finally get the coralline going on my concrete live rock, but it's a start.

I haven't measured Alk or Ca. I'll wait 24 hours to do that.

saf1 · 08/27/2014, 10:47 PM

Check out Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime. I use that in my 29 gallon Bio Cube to boost Calcium and pH. Been a source for a while that people use. Not sure how frequent these days with all the other gadgets but I'm sure if you search a bit you will find some good threads on this board.

karimwassef · 08/28/2014, 01:49 AM

Thanks. I started with a bucket of kalkwasser (same as pickling line) and I've been adding it to my topoff water. ~30 teaspoons a week (into 700gallons).

I'll try and up the dose but I have no idea where all that calcium is being sucked away into. Unless my sand bed is acting as a deposition surface. But with high Mg, good Alk and medium pH (8.2), I would expect more than 320 Ca to stay in the water.

karimwassef · 08/28/2014, 08:37 AM

Also added Kent Tech Purple - cloudy but dissipating. no pH impact.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't have put the rocks in a large external vat exposed to fresh air and sunshine to get a respectable growth of coralline going before putting them in the tank. Could still be an option.

Ideas? Opinions?

karimwassef · 08/28/2014, 03:53 PM

12 dKH
320ppm Ca
8.3 pH
1440ppm Mg
34ppm salinity
77F

I'm finding it difficult to increase the Calcium. Kalkwasser + Turbo Calcium pellets + 2 part Calcium. Gained from 300ppm to 320ppm. I don't believe the cement in the concrete would be causing anionic calcium formation, could it?

Lavoisier · 08/29/2014, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karimwassef

I don't believe the cement in the concrete would be causing anionic calcium formation, could it?

So I tried reading a couple of articles on anionic calcium formation and quickly got lost--my chemistry class was a long time ago! Will you be so kind as to develop your thought a little more with a laymen in mind? Remember, type slowly

karimwassef · 08/29/2014, 07:26 AM

Ok. The idea is that the conditions that are favorable for corals to put down new CaCO3 skeletons can be similar to those where the Ca and CO3 in the water may precipitate on non-organic calcium structures (rock). So anionic is when high pH, Alk and Ca cause that Ca to begin forming on rocks or sand (or even just fall out as particles) instead of supporting coral or coralline growth. Mg helps interfere with this, so it needs to be as high as natural seawater.

So biological creation of coral skeletons is superseded by non-biological fallout of the materials needed by the coralline.

That's my simple take on it, anyway.

So my question is whether the cement (or concrete with aragonite and crushed oyster) creates local conditions that can enhance this extraction of calcium from the water and if that's why I'm struggling with Ca levels even though I'm adding plenty of kalkwasser.

karimwassef · 08/29/2014, 03:22 PM

Couple of new data points. I have a big green emerald crab who's usually hiding. He was out today and I noticed that his shell has turned white... a clue about where the calcium is going?

photo 935402EC-3876-4BF6-BD1C-C4F1EDE340E6_zpso74q0tgh.jpg

karimwassef · 08/29/2014, 03:24 PM

Second, opening my garage door this morning, it accidentally disconnected the outside air intake pipe going into my beast skimmer. Within minutes, my pH dropped by 0.05 and recovered only when I reconnected the pipe.

photo 79B8D07D-BE4C-4567-B178-44DBE0D10D89_zps5ssxuolp.jpg

karimwassef · 08/29/2014, 03:26 PM

This takes me back to curing the concrete rock and how the skimmer was able to pull the pH down from 10 to 8 in an hour - that's with the concrete still curing!

Doubling my efforts on the CO2 scrubber

Lavoisier · 08/29/2014, 05:46 PM

Karim, it would be interesting to get Randy's take on this puzzle. Why don't you ask the question on the chemistry forum?

karimwassef · 08/29/2014, 06:06 PM

I posted there earlier today.

karimwassef · 08/29/2014, 10:17 PM

Scrubber up

photo 45D0591A-9237-460E-A204-109F378562F4_zpswf2rwtij.jpg

karimwassef · 08/30/2014, 12:45 AM

Before adding the scrubber, I noticed that my emerald crab died

I just tested my dKH and it's 14... A little overboard. I'm moving away from kalkwasser and two part until my dKH is back to normal. Going with CaCl (turbo calcium) to increase Ca without Alk.

Here's where we're at:

Alk 14 dKH
Ca 360ppm
pH 8.3
Temp 77
Salinity 34ppm
Mg 1440ppm

08/23/2014, 01:41 PM	#279
Rognin Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Quebec, Canada Posts: 387	I've noticed an accelerated growth with higher dKH (around the 8.8 to 9.5). That's basically all purple up is anyhow. __________________ Fish Stock: N/A, starting over Corals: Want SPS, LPS with zoas Current Tank Info: Custom 145 gallon.

08/25/2014, 05:22 AM	#283
Lavoisier Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Overland Park, KS Posts: 1,030	The only number that could be higher is calcium. Sounds like the proverbial patience at play. __________________ "...for it is not necessary that these hypotheses should be true, or even probably; but it is enough if they provide a calculus which fits the observations..."--Introduction (attributed to Andrew Osiander) to On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Sphere by Nicolaus Copernicus. Current Tank Info: 600g DT, 140g sump, 200g Cryptic, 90g Refugium, 3-400w MH, 2 Reeflo Barracudas, and 3 MP60s

08/27/2014, 10:47 PM	#288
saf1 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: California Posts: 2,259	Check out Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime. I use that in my 29 gallon Bio Cube to boost Calcium and pH. Been a source for a while that people use. Not sure how frequent these days with all the other gadgets but I'm sure if you search a bit you will find some good threads on this board. __________________ -saf1 Current Tank Info: 210 gallon mixed reef

08/29/2014, 07:26 AM	#293
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Ok. The idea is that the conditions that are favorable for corals to put down new CaCO3 skeletons can be similar to those where the Ca and CO3 in the water may precipitate on non-organic calcium structures (rock). So anionic is when high pH, Alk and Ca cause that Ca to begin forming on rocks or sand (or even just fall out as particles) instead of supporting coral or coralline growth. Mg helps interfere with this, so it needs to be as high as natural seawater. So biological creation of coral skeletons is superseded by non-biological fallout of the materials needed by the coralline. That's my simple take on it, anyway. So my question is whether the cement (or concrete with aragonite and crushed oyster) creates local conditions that can enhance this extraction of calcium from the water and if that's why I'm struggling with Ca levels even though I'm adding plenty of kalkwasser. Last edited by karimwassef; 08/29/2014 at 07:50 AM.

08/29/2014, 05:46 PM	#297
Lavoisier Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Overland Park, KS Posts: 1,030	Karim, it would be interesting to get Randy's take on this puzzle. Why don't you ask the question on the chemistry forum? __________________ "...for it is not necessary that these hypotheses should be true, or even probably; but it is enough if they provide a calculus which fits the observations..."--Introduction (attributed to Andrew Osiander) to On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Sphere by Nicolaus Copernicus. Current Tank Info: 600g DT, 140g sump, 200g Cryptic, 90g Refugium, 3-400w MH, 2 Reeflo Barracudas, and 3 MP60s

08/22/2014, 07:07 PM	#276
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	I'm using kalkwasser ATO for calcium (and hydroxide for carbonates) and superbuffer dKH for alkalinity (and carbonates/bicarbonates). pH is what those two and my air CO2 level make it to be. I have a calcium reactor in the works but I'm behind schedule...

08/23/2014, 11:48 AM	#277
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	My monster skimmer injects a lot of CO2, even with a connection to the outside. I'm going to add a CO2 scrubber to the air intake. With my air volume, it's going to be a 5 gallon bucket of soda lime. I've been meaning to add activated carbon to my air intake anyway given the volume of outside content that I constantly inject into the tank.

08/24/2014, 08:26 PM	#280
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Still no sign of coralline on the artificial rock after 5 weeks I have seeded it with cured live rock with purple, violet and red. The uncured had pink but most of that disappeared. I'm adding a phenomenal rate (IMO) of kalkwasser - 30 teaspoons of powder a week for about 700gallons of water with nearly no calcium using organisms except snails and what came in the live rock + glass shrimp, pods, 1 arrow crab and 1 emerald crab. I also have about 600lbs of aragonite sand between the DT and sump refugium. 11 dKH 300ppm Ca 8.2 pH 35 salinity 77F No measurable phosphates or nitrates and my skimmer is up to 3 quarts of export black fluid a week. I feed brine shrimp gel twice a week for the fish, nerites, shrimp, starfish and cocepods/amphipods.

08/24/2014, 08:39 PM	#281
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	I'm also adding magnesium and liquid calcium to try to increase my calcium ppm. Mg test kit is incoming. I'll be switching my salt brand after my current supply is consumed. Also broke down and got purple up, a two part calcium booster, and iodine. I added a ton (81) of hermit crabs and turbos (20) to control hair algae, I'm extending my blue LED window from 9 hours to 18 hours. Did I miss anything?

08/24/2014, 08:39 PM	#282
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Other than the requisite 'patience' of course... LOL.

08/25/2014, 06:45 AM	#284
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	And pH. It fluctuates from 8.0 to 8.2 so that's the motivation for the CO2 scrubber. I'd like to see it in the 8.2 to 8.4 range. I really don't see why I can't raise my Ca given the lower pH I've been at and the abundant sources- kalkwasser, liquid, and aragonite. The only explanation I can think of is a very low magnesium level but I guess the test kit will answer that. Given the quantity of Mg supplement I'm adding, the salt would have been very deficient to still be low.

08/25/2014, 07:25 PM	#286
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	So Magnesium is at 1440 ppm. There should be no problem building up calcium. I believe extending the photoperiod is improving pH from 8.2 to 8.25, but this is hard to prove with only one day. I expect that day over day, this will add up.

08/27/2014, 09:57 PM	#287
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Ok. Going through the battery of attempts to raise calcium and pH without losing alkalinity: I know these aren't all supposed to impact pH, but just to be complete: Added FunkyOldReefMud - nothing Added Purple Up - cloudy for a while, no pH increase. Added Kent Tech I - nothing Added Kent Turbo Calcium - no pH change Added Kent super buffer dKH - nothing Added Kent Tech CB part A - no pH change Added Kent Tech CB part B - INCREASE pH from 8.2 to 8.3, cloud dissipates quickly and the pH has stayed ~8.28 after a couple of hours. Not sure if this will finally get the coralline going on my concrete live rock, but it's a start. I haven't measured Alk or Ca. I'll wait 24 hours to do that.

08/28/2014, 01:49 AM	#289
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Thanks. I started with a bucket of kalkwasser (same as pickling line) and I've been adding it to my topoff water. ~30 teaspoons a week (into 700gallons). I'll try and up the dose but I have no idea where all that calcium is being sucked away into. Unless my sand bed is acting as a deposition surface. But with high Mg, good Alk and medium pH (8.2), I would expect more than 320 Ca to stay in the water.

08/28/2014, 08:37 AM	#290
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Also added Kent Tech Purple - cloudy but dissipating. no pH impact. I'm wondering if I shouldn't have put the rocks in a large external vat exposed to fresh air and sunshine to get a respectable growth of coralline going before putting them in the tank. Could still be an option. Ideas? Opinions?

08/28/2014, 03:53 PM	#291
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	12 dKH 320ppm Ca 8.3 pH 1440ppm Mg 34ppm salinity 77F I'm finding it difficult to increase the Calcium. Kalkwasser + Turbo Calcium pellets + 2 part Calcium. Gained from 300ppm to 320ppm. I don't believe the cement in the concrete would be causing anionic calcium formation, could it?

08/29/2014, 03:22 PM	#294
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Couple of new data points. I have a big green emerald crab who's usually hiding. He was out today and I noticed that his shell has turned white... a clue about where the calcium is going?

08/29/2014, 03:24 PM	#295
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Second, opening my garage door this morning, it accidentally disconnected the outside air intake pipe going into my beast skimmer. Within minutes, my pH dropped by 0.05 and recovered only when I reconnected the pipe.

08/29/2014, 03:26 PM	#296
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	This takes me back to curing the concrete rock and how the skimmer was able to pull the pH down from 10 to 8 in an hour - that's with the concrete still curing! Doubling my efforts on the CO2 scrubber

08/29/2014, 06:06 PM	#298
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	I posted there earlier today.

08/29/2014, 10:17 PM	#299
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Scrubber up

08/30/2014, 12:45 AM	#300
karimwassef Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,033	Before adding the scrubber, I noticed that my emerald crab died I just tested my dKH and it's 14... A little overboard. I'm moving away from kalkwasser and two part until my dKH is back to normal. Going with CaCl (turbo calcium) to increase Ca without Alk. Here's where we're at: Alk 14 dKH Ca 360ppm pH 8.3 Temp 77 Salinity 34ppm Mg 1440ppm