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Unread 01/18/2019, 12:20 AM   #1
Salty Balls
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Bubbles in my calcium reactor

A few months ago I put a masterflex peristaltic on my GEO 624. And ever since I’ve put it on I haven’t been able to get the bubbles out. It makes my circulation pump loud and I’m sure it throws of the ph probe. Can anybody help me figure this out?


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Unread 01/18/2019, 06:50 AM   #2
tom obrecht
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I can’t help but I am another friend have the same issue. Masterflex pumps and Geo reactors. Same set up and bubbles.


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Unread 01/18/2019, 12:36 PM   #3
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Anybody?


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Unread 01/18/2019, 05:04 PM   #4
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Not shure if this will help. But are you both using the same size tubing. I moved up to the # 35 tubing and never had any issues.


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Unread 01/18/2019, 05:47 PM   #5
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The issue you are having can only be for one of a few reasons and this comes from someone who uses a Geo reactor with a Masterflex pump and has setup several Geo reactors using peristaltic feeds pump such as the Masterflex and Kamoer pumps.
1) because you have more gas going in that flow going out of the reactor.
2) You have a vacuum leak on the intake side of the pump between the pump and sump if you are pushing or if you are pulling, then anywhere between the pump and reactor and reactor and sump.
3) You are sucking microbubbles in from the sump or where ever the water for the reactor is being drawn from.


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Unread 01/18/2019, 09:34 PM   #6
Salty Balls
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I’ve literally checked everything. I have a masterflex with easy load head. It does 10-600. I never had this problem before I put the masterflex on. I run it on 10 with a carbondoser at 4 bubble count.


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Unread 01/18/2019, 10:22 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Salty Balls View Post
I’ve literally checked everything. I have a masterflex with easy load head. It does 10-600. I never had this problem before I put the masterflex on. I run it on 10 with a carbondoser at 4 bubble count.


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Well that explains a lot.. If you are running LS17 tubing, at 10 rpm on the Masterflex with an Easyload head, you are running at about 27 ml/min (2.7ml/min per RPM) at 1 co2 bubble every 4 seconds. I run 65ml/min at 1 bubble every 3.5 seconds at 3 psi on a Geo 818. That keeps my pH around 6.65. To put that in perspective, I am pushing more than twice the effluent rate as you with only a bit more Co2 (depending on what PSI you are running at) in my Geo 818 reactor that has around 20% more volume than your 624. If you are running more than 3 PSI on the output side, you are more than likely putting in even more Co2 than I am with less than half the effluent rate. In my opinion, your issue is excessive gas and if you didn’t have that issue before the masterflex, you likely had more flow through the reactor than you have now or less Co2 going into the reactor.

My best advice to you would be to reclibrate your pH probe with pH4 and ph7 solution if you are running an Apex. Then decrease the bubble rate to 1 bubble every 7 or 8 seconds and see what your pH is at in the reactor. That would be where I would start. Also, are you running your carbon doser on a ph controller such as an Apex or something? If not, what are you using to monitor reactor pH? What PSI are you running on the output side?

Edit: I just saw your post in the Masterflex thread. Looks like you have an Apex judging by the blue pH probe in your reactor. What media are you running? What pH are you measuring in the reactor? When did you calibrate your pH probe last and what pH calibration solution did you use? pH 4 and pH 7 or pH7 and pH10? Regardless of those answers, I am certain your issue is excessive gas meaning you are pushing too much Co2 in for the effluent rate and gas is building up in the reactor as a result.


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Last edited by slief; 01/18/2019 at 10:53 PM.
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Unread 01/19/2019, 10:47 AM   #8
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So I’m guessing mine is a co2 (too much) as well. I had my car on doser set at one bubble every 4 seconds and my Masterflex set at 16. I just backed the bubble count back to one bubble every 6 seconds and will bump Masterflex to 18. Will see how this works.


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Unread 01/19/2019, 11:52 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by slief View Post
Well that explains a lot.. If you are running LS17 tubing, at 10 rpm on the Masterflex with an Easyload head, you are running at about 27 ml/min (2.7ml/min per RPM) at 1 co2 bubble every 4 seconds. I run 65ml/min at 1 bubble every 3.5 seconds at 3 psi on a Geo 818. That keeps my pH around 6.65. To put that in perspective, I am pushing more than twice the effluent rate as you with only a bit more Co2 (depending on what PSI you are running at) in my Geo 818 reactor that has around 20% more volume than your 624. If you are running more than 3 PSI on the output side, you are more than likely putting in even more Co2 than I am with less than half the effluent rate. In my opinion, your issue is excessive gas and if you didn’t have that issue before the masterflex, you likely had more flow through the reactor than you have now or less Co2 going into the reactor.

My best advice to you would be to reclibrate your pH probe with pH4 and ph7 solution if you are running an Apex. Then decrease the bubble rate to 1 bubble every 7 or 8 seconds and see what your pH is at in the reactor. That would be where I would start. Also, are you running your carbon doser on a ph controller such as an Apex or something? If not, what are you using to monitor reactor pH? What PSI are you running on the output side?

Edit: I just saw your post in the Masterflex thread. Looks like you have an Apex judging by the blue pH probe in your reactor. What media are you running? What pH are you measuring in the reactor? When did you calibrate your pH probe last and what pH calibration solution did you use? pH 4 and pH 7 or pH7 and pH10? Regardless of those answers, I am certain your issue is excessive gas meaning you are pushing too much Co2 in for the effluent rate and gas is building up in the reactor as a result.


Yes I run an apex. I use all reborn (calcium and magnesium) in my reactor. I calibrated my probe this morning with 7.01 and 10.01 Milwaukee solution. Probe was not off. I can order some low ph calibration fluid. My out pressure on my doser is 5 psi. It’s odd that I never had this problem without the masterflex. I’ve been using it with the bubbles in the chamber for the past couple of months. It’s just very noisy in my business. The bubbles get in the recirculating pump.



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Unread 01/19/2019, 12:06 PM   #10
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To be honest... I can’t remember what size tubing it is. Maybe I can look through my emails and find the original order.


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Unread 01/19/2019, 12:09 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Salty Balls View Post
Yes I run an apex. I use all reborn (calcium and magnesium) in my reactor. I calibrated my probe this morning with 7.01 and 10.01 Milwaukee solution. Probe was not off. I can order some low ph calibration fluid. My out pressure on my doser is 5 psi. It’s odd that I never had this problem without the masterflex. I’ve been using it with the bubbles in the chamber for the past couple of months. It’s just very noisy in my business. The bubbles get in the recirculating pump.



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You should not be calibrating with high range solution since our target range is in the 6’s. You need to calibrate with pH4 and pH7 for a calcium reactor if you want accurate pH readings in the range that a calcium reactor runs at. Using high rane calibration solutions, your pH probe will read higher than it is in the reactor. 5 PSI creates much larger bubbles than 3 PSI and as I said, from first hand experience (I’ve setup several reactors using these types of feed pumps with a number of different Geo reactors), that flow rate coupled with your Co2 rate will create excess gas in the reactor and the less media in the reactor, the more the problem is exacerbated. If you didn’t have that issue before, then it’s more than likely because your effluent rate was higher than you are running now. That said, knowing what tubing you are using is important because if that tubing is smaller diameter than L17, the effluent flow rates could be even less which would further increase excess gas issues at your Co2 rates. I didn’t see any mention of what your reactor pH is reading now.


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Unread 01/19/2019, 12:14 PM   #12
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This is the tubing I was told to order. And I put couplers on it to fit the ridged airline tubing on it.


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Unread 01/19/2019, 12:14 PM   #13
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Sorry... my reactor ph is at 6.5


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Unread 01/19/2019, 12:18 PM   #14
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So I’m guessing mine is a co2 (too much) as well. I had my car on doser set at one bubble every 4 seconds and my Masterflex set at 16. I just backed the bubble count back to one bubble every 6 seconds and will bump Masterflex to 18. Will see how this works.
Be sure to purge the excess gas out of the reactor so you know if the change is helping but 16 RPM with LS17 tubing is about 43ml/min which is kind of low for one bubble every 4 seconds. Especially if the output PSI is over 3 but reactor size plays a big role in this. If you have a large reactor like a Geo 818, it could still be a bit on the high side or very high (depending on the output PSI) but if it’s a small reactor, then it’s definitely on the high side and you are more than likely seeing gas buildup.

It is however very important that the intake tube into the sump be in an area devoid of any microbubbles. That aside, I do think your issue is likely excess gas as well. And as I said in my reply above Salty, as the media reactor gets low on media, the issue gets exacerbated so keeping a reasonably full reactor helps but balancing flow vs Co2 is important since Co2 gets dissolved into the water and it isn’t until the water is fully saturated with Co2 that you get the excess gas issue. Once the water in the reactor is fully saturated, it takes very little Co2 to maintain the saturation and keep a steady pH level. And with reborn media, I suggest targeting a range between 6.6 and 6.75. I keep mine between 6.65 and 6.75 which dissolved the media just fine and with the correct effluent rate, my reactor has no issues keeping up with my tanks alk and Ca demands which not dissolving the media excessively fast.


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Unread 01/19/2019, 12:19 PM   #15
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This is my calcium reactor ph in the past 24 hrs. Yesterday I took it apart and cleaned it. Set it to 4 bubbles per minute at 5 psi and my masterflex on 10. The spike this morning was from calibrating my probe.


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Unread 01/19/2019, 12:24 PM   #16
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Before yesterday I was using ARM media. But it seemed really unstable. What should my affluent levels be?


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Unread 01/19/2019, 12:25 PM   #17
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This is the tubing I was told to order. And I put couplers on it to fit the ridged airline tubing on it.


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If that is what you are using, that is the equivilent of LS17 tubing so you are running at about 27ml/min at 10 rpm as I said in my initial reply.


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Unread 01/19/2019, 12:29 PM   #18
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This is my calcium reactor ph in the past 24 hrs. Yesterday I took it apart and cleaned it. Set it to 4 bubbles per minute at 5 psi and my masterflex on 10. The spike this morning was from calibrating my probe.


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And as I noted above, calibrating with pH4 and pH7 is critical to accurate readings in our range and given my experience with calcium reactors using this method, I am pretty certain that your issue is excess gas in the reactor regardless of what your pH is reading. Purge the reactor of gas, reduce the Co2 output pressure to 3 psi and reduce the bubble rate a bit until you get new calibration solution. Test your Ca and Alk levels in your tank daily and monitor for excess gas buildup.


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Unread 01/19/2019, 12:41 PM   #19
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Thank you. Will see how things progress.


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Unread 01/19/2019, 01:52 PM   #20
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I’ve made those adjustments and everything seems ok so far.

One more question... what should my calcium and alkalinity levels be coming out of my affluent from the reactor?


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Unread 01/19/2019, 03:34 PM   #21
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I’ve made those adjustments and everything seems ok so far.

One more question... what should my calcium and alkalinity levels be coming out of my affluent from the reactor?


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Don’t know. In over 20 years of runnig a calcium reactor, it’s not something I ever worried about or tested since I only care about what my tank’s cal and alk levels are. And it would be heavily dependant on what the pH level is in the reactor anyway but it will be really high alk and ca levels. Much higher than you would ever want your tank to be at.

Keep in mind that the reborn media will break down anywhere from 6.9 pH and lower. You want/need to find a balance between the pH level in the reactor and effluent rate that will maintain your target alk levels in your system. If your alk levels are too high, increase the pH in your reactor or slow the effluent rate down and reduce the Co2 rate to maintain the same reactor pH. If the alk levels are too low in your system, increase the effluent rate and adjust the Co2 rate to maintain the target reactor pH. I don’t like running the reactor pH too low because it turns the media to mush and can often result in excess gas in the reactor. Thus, I always aim for 6.65 to 6.75 in my reactor and adjust the effluenr rate accordingly. In customers tanks who have smaller systems or less alk requirements and smaller reactors, I will often aim for 6.7-6.8 ph in the reactor. And also keep in mind that a reactor will typically have pH swings that follows the tanks pH swings from day to night. Smaller reactors are a bit tougher to dial in such that the Apex or pH controller never have to intervene because it’s tough to get the Co2 rate slow enough (to maintain reasonable pH levels in the reactor that don’t result in excess gas) unless you use a 1 PSI check valve and can drop the pressure below 3 PSI and keep the bubble count slow enough. On the Carbon doser that works out to about 1 opening of the clipper solenoid every 12 seconds. Its even more difficult with needle valve based regulators since the needle valves aren’t as precise as the carbon dosers clipper solenoid.

I normally get a system to target Alk and Ca levels using two part. I then get the reactor running and test the alk the next day and see if the alk went up or down. I then make a slight adjustment to the reactor either slowing it down or increasing the effluent rate while maintaining the same reactor pH and again, test the alk the next day and make a reactor adjustment. It should only take a handful of days to get the reactor dialed in to the tanks current alk needs. A larger reactor on a bigger system can often be easier to tune than a smaller reactor just because the smaller reactor is more sensitive to Co2 adjustments and effluent rate changes.

I’m also not concered with running high alk levels. I normally aim for anywhere between 8-9 DKH. Natural seawater is around 7-8 dkh.


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Last edited by slief; 01/19/2019 at 03:43 PM.
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Unread 01/21/2019, 12:00 PM   #22
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Last question... everything seems to be doing well. But my alkalinity has shot to around 12 DKH. Should I just turn off the carbondoser for a day or so and let the alkalinity lower on it’s own? Some of my sps are really ****ed and not doing well.


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Unread 01/21/2019, 12:39 PM   #23
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Last question... everything seems to be doing well. But my alkalinity has shot to around 12 DKH. Should I just turn off the carbondoser for a day or so and let the alkalinity lower on it’s own? Some of my sps are really ****ed and not doing well.


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Yea, I would shut off the Co2 to it until you get the Alk in your target range. You’re going to need to run the reactor with a higher pH level so you don’t keep overshooting your target alk levels. I’d dop the Co2 pressure as far down as your check valves will allow and see what that does for your reactor pH. You will likely need to go as high as 6.9 pH in the reactor and or possibly even restrict the Co2 run time in the reactor through the Apex to prevent from overshooting the target Alk levels in your tank.


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Unread 01/21/2019, 03:56 PM   #24
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I think my alkalinity was high due to so much gas in my reactor before. But it’s off and I’ll dial it in in a few days. Thanks a lot. I really appreciate your help.


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Unread 01/21/2019, 03:57 PM   #25
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My starry blenny also thanks you!


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