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01/10/2014, 11:36 PM | #101 |
Moved On
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01/11/2014, 03:25 AM | #102 | |
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The whole thing became obsessive when the hand held meters came out and nutrient reduction methods became more economical.
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80g Rimless Acropora System reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2197142&page=31 Ed |
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01/11/2014, 03:58 AM | #103 | |
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80g Rimless Acropora System reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2197142&page=31 Ed |
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01/11/2014, 05:41 AM | #104 |
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I also had a nicely colored sps tank over 12 yrs ago. I never tested NO3 or PO4. When you do not have problems you're not looking for any.
The fish load was med-high, and fish were fed good. I had plenty of CUC, and a few tangs. I was running DE 250w AB 10k MH with actinic bulbs. Does keeping PO4 and NO3 at stable #'s do anything to get to that next level of coloration? We know for sure stable Alk does. I have seen first hand a tank with nice colors with PO4 over .40. The bonsai had the best purple I have seen. I do not know the NO3 level. It does seem the trend is to take all the nutrients out and add back nutrients from little bottles drops at a time. Just look at all the new products coming out geared to color/feed acros. For a while I have been thinking about stopping the vinegar dosing. I am not dosing for low numbers anyway, just to make sure they don't get out of hand. Are we trying to make sps more difficult now? Stable alk/cal, bright lights, flow, skimming, and feed the fish.
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01/11/2014, 08:59 AM | #105 | ||
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The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. Current Tank Info: 150 mixed reef with a 180 remote sump • 250 gallon fish breeding system • 200 gallon cephalopod breeding system • 212,000 gallon reef tank at work |
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01/11/2014, 09:09 AM | #106 | ||
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Quote:
I got tired of spending time and money on lowering PO4. When I stopped nothing much changed. Does that mean it will work for you? Dunno. Quote:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...7&postcount=21 Let me know if it isn't.
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The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. Current Tank Info: 150 mixed reef with a 180 remote sump • 250 gallon fish breeding system • 200 gallon cephalopod breeding system • 212,000 gallon reef tank at work |
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01/11/2014, 09:12 AM | #107 | |
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Quote:
I found the handheld to give me different results when I retested the same sample several times. That could have been me though.
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The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. Current Tank Info: 150 mixed reef with a 180 remote sump • 250 gallon fish breeding system • 200 gallon cephalopod breeding system • 212,000 gallon reef tank at work |
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01/11/2014, 10:07 AM | #108 |
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At the same time there's no denying that un detectable nitrates and low po4 readings are a BIG part of many many successful sps tanks these days... Just look at the Totm tanks... The common denominator to the majority of them over the last few years has been low nitrate and low phosphates, many base their tanks around keeping those 2 numbers in check.. And with the right setup.. There's not much extra cost or work involved to keep everything in check. It's all fine and we'll to say extreme levels of po4 are working for u.. But in my tank I notice sps loosing colors when my po4 starts to creep up, simple solution is to change my GFO and everything is peachy again.. Thinking back it seems this is the case for many others here as well
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01/11/2014, 10:35 AM | #109 | ||||
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The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. Current Tank Info: 150 mixed reef with a 180 remote sump • 250 gallon fish breeding system • 200 gallon cephalopod breeding system • 212,000 gallon reef tank at work |
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01/11/2014, 12:33 PM | #110 | |||
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Frankly I can't believe I'm the only one to post here with these views. |
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01/11/2014, 01:20 PM | #111 | |
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Quote:
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The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. Current Tank Info: 150 mixed reef with a 180 remote sump • 250 gallon fish breeding system • 200 gallon cephalopod breeding system • 212,000 gallon reef tank at work |
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01/11/2014, 02:25 PM | #112 | |
DID I SOUNDS SMRT??
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Quote:
We know zoo-x is a plant and we know nutrients like PO4 and NO3 are great at growing plants. We also know that an over abundance of zoo-x will stunt a corals growth and make it brown. So we can easily draw the connection that higher NO3 and PO4 levels will brown corals and affect growth. This is even witnessed in natural reefs when nutrient levels rise from human interference and run off. The cleanest, untouched waters usually produce the nicest corals. Also I can witness myself phases of heavier feeding and browner corals vs. lighter feeding and lighter colors in some corals. If nutrients like PO4 and NO3 are not responsible for such events, please explain? Similarly I believe there is relation between light levels and the amount of NO3 and PO4 a system can handle. A system with a powerful lighting system seems to be able to handle more NO3 and PO4 with out the zoo-x populations getting out of control. Similarly to a system bleaching or lightening a coral up with a change from weak to strong lighting. Also good to note that some SPS are better suited to high NO3 and PO4 levels while others will brown out quick.
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--DARRYL-- Current Tank Info: 200g SPS dominant Mixed Reef Last edited by dvanacker; 01/11/2014 at 02:38 PM. |
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01/11/2014, 07:21 PM | #113 |
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this hobby has come a loooong way…
when i set up my first 60 gallon reef, it had softies and was lit by Phillips actinic and 65k t12 tubes. some stuff did really well and lots didn't. A couple years later in 96 i think, when i set up my second 125 gallon reef and installed Venture 65k metal halide bulbs, i started to be able to keep some brown staghorn corals. Right at this time i also watched in dismay as green hair algae began to take over my tank. Reading everything i could.. as well as the best magazine in the frickin world (in my opinion, at the time) Advanced Aquarist- the printed version, I discovered the concept of plenums and sand beds. After installing a plenum on my reef, i happily watched the hair algae melt away. This is when people like Borneman and Sprung- amongst others i don't recall were writing about Jaubert and Eng.. amongst other pioneers i don't recall. What I'm getting at, as i date myself, is that i think there have been many watershed moments in this hobby like the development of protein skimmers, then the implementation of plenums and the dsb, mh lighting…. they are largely related to nutrient control… Now, perhaps back then we had nutrient levels 10x as high as Thale's tank… i wouldn't know since i never tested for nutrients back then. But i never really had widespread success until i began employing lots of dsbs and skimming a lot. my most successful tank, here:http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...497916&page=31 relied on skimming, cheato, wcs and dsb. even back in 2010, gfo like rowaphos had been on the market for about 3 years but there was no mention of no3 or po4 in my tank specs because i don't think i really tested much.. I was obviously aware of the need to control n and p, but I was of the "i let my corals tell me how the chemistry is" school. As are most people employing a dsb, i find.. nobody asked me about them either because they weren't such a concern... yet…. that tank employed a HUGE skimmer, a HUGE cheato ball lit by a 250w mh bulb and a dsb. It had around 40 fish in the tank and i fed heavily, multiple times a day… the growth as phenomenal and colours were amazing. i have no idea what the nutrient levels were.. It came down for a house reno 3 years ago.. fast forward to today.. i have every test kit under the sun and i know my numbers but my new tank doesn't look as good and the corals are growing sloooooow. I set it up with a sand bed and cheato and watched my no3 drop to 0 and my po4 climb to .3… i had a freak out and pulled out the sand, added biopellest and started dosing no3…. i think that my tank looked better when the dsb had the n at 0 and p out of control.. if i didn't have a p04 test kit to make myself crazy with, i wouldn't have changed anything and, who knows, maybe the tank would have been better off… now, I'm too scared to add the dsb back for fear of the potential spike in p…. talk about chasing and being ruled by the numbers…… having rambled on for too long, despite what this thread is about, i feel that nutrient control is extremely important and i don't think I could live with my reef having n of around 10 and p over 1ppm….. unless i had my old tank and somebody tested my water back then and told me my n and p were where Thales' are now…. If that had happened, i would have been happy with my numbers….. Thales, I am honestly perplexed by your fantastic looking tank… i would love to see a current video or some top down shots or your corals.. i must say that i am honestly shocked that sps even survive in our tank.. Personally, i feel that your tank an anomaly… but this is not the first time or the last time that this hobby will surprise, humiliate and most importantly, teach me something……
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Matt. Current Tank Info: 53x32.5x26 190g dt 60g of sumps 3 tank-100 gal frag system 6xAI prime 8xt5. 4x maxspect gyre. Skimz Dual internal sicce pump skimmer Deltec PF601s ca rx+Kalk stirrer |
01/12/2014, 12:43 AM | #114 |
The Fifth Master
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Rizos and fistulas, someone has a taste for the forbidden fruits :P I don't blame you, they are mighty tasty.
One thing that we are slowly getting better at is having more variety of foods available for the reef tank. Until recently, most tanks were kept very sterile in that regard. I believe an issue is that the foods we serve are introduced in a state of decay, whereas in the ocean there is a plethora of live foods constantly on the go. From snails and shrimps spawning to what fish are eating and pooping, most food sources are extremely fresh. My assumption is that this is why in nature, the phosphates are lower respectively than our tanks. Perhaps the greater end game would be to provide nutritious fare to a point were it outweighs beneficially the negative attributes of higher nutrient levels in our reefs. Assuming of course we will continue to have issues limiting DOC's in order to feed our tanks. Perhaps the extra food intake of the corals outweighs the stunted calcification of the elevated phosphate level. Would more extreme lighting be the key? I would assume that it would lead to a higher production of zooxanthellae in corals which in turn would bump growth. Lighting intensity and spectrum may then play a role in the coloration of the corals as they build chromaproteins to protect their tissue from the radiations. Its a known fact that all living things require phosphates to live, so it wouldn't be rash to assume that corals can develop tolerances to elevated levels.
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Kevin I have lost all concept of reality and live in an SPS world now. |
01/12/2014, 01:35 AM | #115 |
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I am loving this post. I've been in the hobby since 2000 and love it when I see tanks by people that don't chase numbers but look at their corals for needs, and have everyone stumped by their tanks. A lot has changed.
Thanks for a refreshing read. |
01/12/2014, 01:53 AM | #116 |
Dansreeftank
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Maybe it has alot to do with maturity of the tank and stability and how well adapted the corals are already
that when slowly making changes it doesnt affect them much and still thrive. .
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48x30x20 Leemar rimless starphire panels, lit by an Ati hybrid powermodule, apex controller with apex dos, ghl dosing, mp40qd and tunze. And korallen skimmer. |
01/12/2014, 03:00 AM | #117 | |
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Quote:
How many wild colonies do you lose Thales putting them straight in? I can't see a colony coming in and keeping colour in those levels, it's not what they are used to. |
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01/12/2014, 06:44 AM | #118 | |
Acro Whore
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Mixed reef emphasis on SPS. Tangs, Triggers, Bartlets, CBB, Goldflake Angel, and a Pigmy or two. Current Tank Info: 250G SPS Mixed Reef. ATLAS 84x28x24. SuperMarin 250. Cebu Sun 3 x 250WMH Radiums 4 x 80W T5. Profilux 3 w/GHL dosing CA-ALK-MG. Moved by Tunze and Vertex. Reef Octopus 5K return. |
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01/12/2014, 08:20 AM | #119 | |
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The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. Current Tank Info: 150 mixed reef with a 180 remote sump • 250 gallon fish breeding system • 200 gallon cephalopod breeding system • 212,000 gallon reef tank at work |
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01/12/2014, 08:27 AM | #120 | ||
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I also think people will be surprised to learn that many successful reefs are running with what is considered high levels of phosphate. Quote:
I have a 3-4 inch frag of a red stag someone gave me in early December that is doing just fine, and a chunk of Red Dragon (not sure if it was wild or cultured) that I also got in early December that is coloring up and doing just fine.
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The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. Current Tank Info: 150 mixed reef with a 180 remote sump • 250 gallon fish breeding system • 200 gallon cephalopod breeding system • 212,000 gallon reef tank at work |
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01/12/2014, 09:07 AM | #121 |
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Is it safe to say that there is an exception to every rule? This is one of them but not the only one. At the end of the day the rule is based on what happens in the majority of situations.
Back in the old days I would not run GFO and test for phosphates. Everybody would always complement me on how good my colors were and how thick my acros were. However, my polyp extension was never as good as most other reefers. But then again, why would a person walk around with it's mouth wide open, trying to catch a bug when it's belly is full. |
01/12/2014, 09:29 AM | #122 |
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What is you alk lvl?? It must be high.
On what I usualy see here, sps with low phosphate love low alk. |
01/12/2014, 09:46 AM | #123 | ||
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The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. Current Tank Info: 150 mixed reef with a 180 remote sump • 250 gallon fish breeding system • 200 gallon cephalopod breeding system • 212,000 gallon reef tank at work |
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01/12/2014, 10:02 AM | #124 | |
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The most recent test I have is from December 10. PO43 tested with the Hach ascorbic acid molybdate method 1.134, Alk, 2.88. I should prolly test again and see where the tank is holding now. I'll see what I can do this week.
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The reefer formally known as Lefty Ink is the way; the way is ink. Current Tank Info: 150 mixed reef with a 180 remote sump • 250 gallon fish breeding system • 200 gallon cephalopod breeding system • 212,000 gallon reef tank at work |
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01/12/2014, 11:35 AM | #125 |
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Awesome thread and tank =).
I have experienced sort of the same thing with my old 45g it was going on 13 years old simple but effective and p04 and n03 levels were high and colors/growth were great. Fast forward to my new technological marvel of a tank with all the expensive equipment and ways to completely control nutrients and my colors aren't bad But they Def aren't as good as before maybe just needs some time to mature. I am focusing on raising my nitrates now as its running too clean under 5 and colors suffered after I dropped them. I think I'll play around loosely with the p04 also without getting out of hand and see if it plays into my color game. I did have algae issues in the old tank though. Not hair algae just the plague of bryopsis. Are you in the Sf bay area? Good to see some more awesome tanks in this part of Cali=).I like the thread/conversation and I'm gonna follow along and also read the links posted earlier..
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15 years in the hobby yet still learning every day. 280g radium lit sps flat living in my garage rent free. Current Tank Info: 105g SPS dominant euro braced powered by 4 ecotech pumps and lit by an ATI powermodule controlled by a reef angel =). |
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