Dinoflagellates.

[tastyfish]

Originally Posted by EdenR

No apologies to me needed. But you should apologize to those that followed your extended blackout period and killed corals because you fail to mention it should only be tried by those running a FOWLR setup or if they really don't care about losing livestock.

As for the rest, well, I'll let all the recent results speak for themselves as to what works and what doesn't. There have been enough of them recently that one only need to look back a few pages.

Proving again that you haven't bothered to read my post (bar perhaps the fist few lines). That said, others who had advised me on the approach did it on very mature SPS tanks. I wouldn't expect everything to survive, a loss of a sensitive species is certainly likely, however it entirely depends on the species and your circumstances.

If you go back and actually read the entire method I posted and then your comments, you will perhaps see my point. I'll leave it there as arguing with someone who hasn't actually read something being referred is going to end up going round in circles or the ignore button pressed.

Originally Posted by PorkchopExpress

extended blackouts really aren't necessary if the point of it is to reduce the amount of dinos in the tank in order to give competing algaes a chance at taking hold which is why i like the method of 3 day blackout followed by increased feedings and dosing pods/phyto (dirty method)...i believe the dirty method, by itself, is sufficient for the majority of dino cases as seen by numerous results but it doesn't appear to work for everyone, unfortunately...but doing a 3 day blackout will simply speed the process up as well as if you add in a UV and skim heavily in conjunction with the 3 day blackout since blackouts seem to force dinos into the water column

extended blackouts, in my opinion, serve no purpose when short ones can produce the same results and put less stress on your already stressed out corals...so i agree with the opinion that more than 4 days lights out is completely unnecessary given that some dinos will encyst...purpose of the blackout isn't to get rid of them, it's to decrease their numbers and give competing algae a chance

that is my 2 cents...as you can see by my photos that i have an sps dominated tank...at 4 days my acros started to STN...that is simply a fact, not an opinion...doing more than 4 days would be lethal to most of my sps as any experienced reefer would know

Appreciate your view which is actually aligned with mine, *if* the dinos are responding and knocked back enough and you are using other measures to make the environment hostile and competitive for the dinos (see my original post). I was fortunate in that my tank did not have many SPS (mainly LPS), however those SPS I did have were fine after blackout. (This won't be the case, you know how much your corals can take by monitoring them).

I performed my method at the same time as three other people, one did a 3 day blackout along with adding competition, the dinos are back and have killed a large part of his stock. (The worst scenario is that you do any blackout, which weakens the corals and the dinos come back).

The third reefer (much more experienced than I) again performed the blackout (6 days or so I believe) but was not adding bio-diversity until out of blackout switched on MH lights to have a look on day four reported that he could actually see the dinos congregating in the water column within minutes.

The dinos are unfortunately back and spreading even after he is now adding bio diversity and he is contemplating a second blackout, but corals would obviously be in a much weakened state (again, nightmare scenario).

In my case, as my options were open, and I did not want to run the risk of them coming back, I decided to go full hog, although others who had completed this approach with mature SPS tanks had gone longer and were advising me too. (I decided this wasn't for me).

Here's a section of the rock work just prior to total blackout:



Here the same section on day three (actually middle of the night on day two IIRC, day three there wasn't much change so didn't take a photo).



On day 4, the rocks had mostly cleared, however the sand was still snotty and I had snail and conch deaths as they were feeding in the area or on the Dinos.

By day 8, the tank was completely clear and I decided to unwrap (actually I couldn't bare to do it any longer!).



So as you can see, this was my experience and I was glad that I went for a longer period to knock the dinos back further. Otherwise I fear I would still be dealing with them 4/5 months on. It's up to the tank owner to assess what their coral's condition is and if they need to unwrap or they can go on further.

Hope this last post clarifies

[taricha]

Thanks for detailed account. Do you know the kind of dinos?
I'd be pretty dang discouraged if my tank looked like that after 3 days of darkness.

[karimwassef]

Here's what I observed about dark periods with dinos without UV:

1. They have alternate food sources, so they can hunker down for a while.
2. The cyano they collaborate with suffers quite a bit, so other bacteria get a foothold consuming whatever was fueling the cyano.
3. The pods that eat the dinos can be out more frequently since the fish and other daylight predators can't hunt in the dark.

So while it doesn't starve them, it does reduce their food sources, kill their friends and give free reign to their enemies. In some cases, that might win the war. But they're a plague, so it could take a month of these indirect attacks to kill them off.

So, UV just creates a shortcut to their annihilation.

[PorkchopExpress]

my issue is how quickly you are to dismiss and contradict advice from others that most certainly have been proven to work...your case may be the exception but it is not the norm when it comes to the photo sensitivity of dinos...this is your original post stating how just doing a 10 day blackout "WILL kill nearly all of them", in your own words, and that is something i also disagreed with (also partially disagree with UV - the first time it definitely worked and worked on its own without dirty method...second it did not help in my case)...just doing blackouts is not a cure and never has been but thank you for further clarifying your method didn't end at just doing blackouts...multi-pronged approaches are the way to go to beating them quicker than just doing the dirty method which, IMO, is the nail in the coffin

Originally Posted by tastyfish

Don't do a 3 day. It wont work. Others who have tried this have even witnessed the dinos coming back together in the water column when the lights come back on.

8 days minimum (I think I did 10) *complete* blackout (including sump, grow lights etc) with the tank covered, then slowly bring in blue-lights only over the next two weeks before introducing white WILL kill off nearly all of them.

Don't do half measures. at 4/5 days, I still had dinos clinging on, they were certainly in the water column past this time.

[karimwassef]

guys... we're all on the same team... even if we disagree.

the dinos are the bad guys!

What works for someone may not work for another. There's a lot of different dino species too.

[tastyfish]

Originally Posted by taricha

Thanks for detailed account. Do you know the kind of dinos?
I'd be pretty dang discouraged if my tank looked like that after 3 days of darkness.

Unfortunately no, I didn't go down the route of microscopic identification at the time. In hindsight, it would be interesting and perhaps useful. I did perform the reconstitution test (just to stop myself doubting it).

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Here's what I observed about dark periods with dinos without UV:

1. They have alternate food sources, so they can hunker down for a while.
2. The cyano they collaborate with suffers quite a bit, so other bacteria get a foothold consuming whatever was fueling the cyano.
3. The pods that eat the dinos can be out more frequently since the fish and other daylight predators can't hunt in the dark.

So while it doesn't starve them, it does reduce their food sources, kill their friends and give free reign to their enemies. In some cases, that might win the war. But they're a plague, so it could take a month of these indirect attacks to kill them off.

So, UV just creates a shortcut to their annihilation.

Good insight Karim. I was in the middle of an edit to explain my thinking when the edit deadline hit... In my case, I went down the ultra low nutrient route which limited food sources for the dinos. My reason for not having UV on was as I wanted to foster as much diversity as possible. With the scientific research papers out there stating the limited effect of UV on some species of dinoflagellates, the downsides outweighed potential upsides in that I wanted to foster a significant increase in microscopic life whilst the dino population reduced.

Originally Posted by PorkchopExpress

my issue is how quickly you are to dismiss and contradict advice from others that most certainly have been proven to work...your case may be the exception but it is not the norm when it comes to the photo sensitivity of dinos...this is your original post stating how just doing a 10 day blackout "WILL kill nearly all of them", in your own words, and that is something i also disagreed with (also partially disagree with UV - the first time it definitely worked and worked on its own without dirty method...second it did not help in my case)...just doing blackouts is not a cure and never has been but thank you for further clarifying your method didn't end at just doing blackouts...multi-pronged approaches are the way to go to beating them quicker than just doing the dirty method which, IMO, is the nail in the coffin

We're actually in complete agreement, I think it would be worth reading my *original posts again* as I've referred to them several times. My frustration is bourne out of the number of people who think that a blackout alone (or a short 3 day one) will work. My tongue in cheek retort back is that you have already dismissed that a blackout of any longer than 3 days is needed (despite photographic evidence and the fact that others have had major issues).

To be clear, once again though, I am in no way suggesting that ANY single method will work. The complete opposite. It is a multi-pronged attack, not using a wonder additive, or blackout etc.

Here's a quote from earlier in the thread in response to a blackout of 3 days which didn't have the desired effect for the member.

Originally Posted by tastyfish

Sorry to hear this, when I suffered from them, I spoke with 15 or so other reefers who had experienced Dinos. Pretty much everyone had tried a short (3 day) blackout and almost in every case, they came back.

This is what mine looked like (a small sample of what was in the tank):




After speaking with some very helpful (and much more experienced reefers than me), I decided to employ a multi-pronged strategy to defeat them (this was performed in a relatively new tank, with only a few SPS frags, but has been used in very mature SPS systems) This consisted of the following:

1: Remove:
- Siphon to *waste* all the dinoflagellate mass I could with as little as possible water change (replacement water used TMC Pro Reef synthetic salt to ensure no organics) Do NOT try to pass through a filter sock or floss, they will pass through and re-form.

2: Create a hostile environment:

- 8+ Day Total blackout (sump and tank wrapped in black plastic) followed by Blue-only lighting for 5 days before introducing whites gradually (some advised longer and had done so with very mature SPS tanks)

- Maintain very low phosphate and Nitrate (Double Rowa amount, changing every 3/4 days)

- Double carbon media, replacing every 4 days

- Raise pH using Air stone to maintain 8.2+

- Wet Skim and clean it constantly - you need the skimmer at peak efficiency to remove dinos in the water column

3: Outcompete:
Create nutrient competition with good profile of microfauna/flora (Initial 10 x dose of FM Ultra-Bio, followed by daily top-ups of normal dose with UltraBak

Remember: Siphon Dead/Dying Dinoflaggelates to waste! NEVER through a filter sock.

The reason for removal of as much of the dinoflagellate mass as possible prior to blackout and during is two fold: Firstly, they will break down and provide more free nutrients (you are trying to reduce this). Secondly, even if they are not toxic when growing in the tank (as mine were not), they can release toxins when dying off. I ost two conches who started to feed on an area of dying dinoflagellates on the sand.

The good news is that 12+ weeks later, and they have not returned and the tank is (as far as I can tell) free of them.

A word on this approach, however - it is not for the faint hearted. You need to keep your head and press ahead with the blackout. Fortunately for me, I did not have a big stock of SPS. (Hammerheads, Acan, soft corals and LPS were fine) however those who helped had very mature SPS tanks and had gone through similar or longer blackouts.

However in my case, it did trigger a massive issue with the fish stock. As they were in the dark, they retreated to the rock and did not feed. This lowered their immune system and allowed a protozoan infection (probably Crytpocaryon) to take hold (I believe this came into the system on some macroalgae from another reefer previously).

In order to reduce the impact on fish immune systems, I would feed fortified food and use appetite stimulator (such as Garlic) to try to ensure the fish do feed and get plenty of vitamins & minerals when they do.

So this method is certainly effective, and much more so than miracle in a bottle chemicals, however some care needs to be taken along with perseverance.

Good Luck, it's beatable.

I know that's a lot of info to read (it's the condensed version BTW), but it is worth reading past the first few lines which perhaps some people have not done.

Originally Posted by karimwassef

guys... we're all on the same team... even if we disagree.

the dinos are the bad guys!

What works for someone may not work for another. There's a lot of different dino species too.

Absolutely, there are 1600 species known to date, some are extremely beneficial. I believe no tank has zero dinoflagellates, but they are kept in check by a balanced ecosystem. Every environment in every tank is different also.

On my final note, I'm surprised TBH by some of the responses in this thread if anyone voices a different opinion to their own thinking (actually in some cases it's not even their own thinking) - sadly I've found this to more prevalent on RC compared to other forums.

So I will take this moment to unsubscribe from the thread and leave you guys to it. I don't want this to read as a flounce, the genuine aim is to help rather than argue.

Good luck with the fight, it's winnable!

[taricha]

I'll mention again.

If anyone has or knows of someone who has a toxic dino species (caused snail deaths or other tank deaths) I'd love to pay shipping to get my hands on them. PM me for details.

[mannyhernz]

Originally Posted by PorkchopExpress

...on a more pleasant note I've been dino free for about a year now...I always said I would wait a year before attempting to sell or trade corals and I did in order to not spread the disease around...been trading and selling quite a bit recently and so far so good...before I started I borrowed another microscope and couldn't find a single dino cell...doesn't mean there aren't any there, it just means my system is at a point that it can suppress them...I get green algae on the glass and gha growing in the sump...point is this thing can be beat! find a method that works for you and follow through with it

Hey porkchop..i have also been dino free for over a month! Been doing routine water changes but cant seem to get the gha under control..turbos are eating it up but it doesnt seem to dissipate. What are your methods for controlling the gha after dinos? Thanks for the tips btw..lights out+dirty method definitely did my dinos in.

[karimwassef]

Get an ATS!!

[reefcentral123]

so far so good but I still haven't done a water change. will do so this week.

[mannyhernz]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Get an ATS!!

Cant get one on the fusion 20..but i do have a refugium.

[karimwassef]

If you have external plumbing, you can plumb one in. In my case, I literally used my back end-to-end weir area:

[mcfa2403]

So I have been fighting dinos in my tank for a couple of days now and have noticed something of interest. I have been siphoning into a filter sock into my sump (in place of water change to remove the dinos) and noticed that underneath the dinos in many spots in the tank are hair algae. I was hoping this meant that it was just cyano coating the hair algae since the rock is all new rock (used cycled media) but texture, 0 no3 and po4 with an overflowing skimmer tells me I am most likely dealing with dinos.

I am fortunate to not be dealing with a toxic variety and have had no deaths due to the unbelievable outbreak so I am taking a methodical approach to dealing with it. The only pieces in this tank are frags (or bubble tips) so I daily pull the frags and clean them to avoid death by smothering. Fish are fine and eating well. My plan is to continue daily manual removal via siphoning, plug cleaning and skimming and will begin dosing phyto. My hope is to limp along without water changes (don't need them anyways at the moment) and hope that the dinos will choke themselves out.

I plan to give this a couple of weeks before trying a more aggressive approach.

[karimwassef]

A UV is ~$100 and three days black out is free. I would start there.

[sinful]

I don't think a $100 UV is going to help with anything...

[karimwassef]

Have you tried it?

Read the last 100 pages ..

[mannyhernz]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

If you have external plumbing, you can plumb one in. In my case, I literally used my back end-to-end weir area:

Thats pretty cool...unfortunately, my tank is an aio..but i did manage to install a cpr bak pak fuge..
You can see it in back

[34cygni]

To be fair to tastyfish...

08/21/2015, 02:40 AM #1570
34cygni

In other words, among planktonic species heterotrophic dinos eat more and grow faster than mixotrophic dinos. It's likely the same is true of benthic species. Perhaps we can recruit some to help us by providing them with a cryptic environment where they have the home court advantage.

Emphasis mine. This suggests that an environment rich in heterotrophic bacteria and microfauna would reduce the reproductive success of ostis depositing cysts there, as the protective mucous layer would be eaten away and the cysts exposed.

Maybe 10 days is long enough to commence the shift to a population of benthic microorganisms typical of a cryptic ecosystem powered by secondary producers, making mixotrophic dinos and their cysts food for hungry heterotrophs.

So while I'm not endorsing the idea, I can see a mechanism that might explain why tastyfish is... If it gets some takers and turns out to work as advertised, it may deserve consideration for a spot in the FAQ as the official Measure of Last Resort.


Growth, Feeding and Ecological Roles of the Mixotrophic and Heterotrophic Dinoflagellates in Marine Planktonic Food Webs
http://hosting03.snu.ac.kr/~hjjeong/...%2045%2065.pdf

Life cycle stages of the benthic palytoxin-producing dinoflagellate Ostreopsis cf. ovata (Dinophyceae)
http://digital.csic.es/bitstream/102...post_print.pdf

--

Originally Posted by taricha

I'm starting to wonder if there's something to ciliate predation - at least for less toxic dino species. ...

Ran across this AA article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/10/breeder on culturing ciliates.

Ciliates are called out as predators on prorocentrum dinos in Growth, Feeding and Ecological Roles of the Mixotrophic and Heterotrophic Dinoflagellates in Marine Planktonic Food Webs, and Montireef reported finding ciliates in his skimmate, so it's reasonable to try culturing them.

Note that the AA culturing technique is about producing microorganisms of maximum nutritional value, as they're talking about culturing them for food. In that paper, the food web diagram indicates that ciliates eat bacteria, so you might be able to culture them (or culture a different species) by triggering a bacteria bloom with a few grains of boiled wheat, rice, or barley.

[Dfee]

Taricha,

How does one ship a sample of Dino? I've never identified mine even though I'm hitting the two year mark with them (I think). I'd scrape some off my glass next time it builds up enough. I'd pay the shipping if you wouldn't mind identifying them for me. And maybe you get lucky and get the species you're looking for.

[reefcentral123]

Originally Posted by sinful

I don't think a $100 UV is going to help with anything...

it helped for me.

[sinful]

i tried finding a reference to a $100 uv. I'm all in on a UV working, I'm actually about to purchase one of the emperor aquatics 18 or 25w. From everything I've read a cheap uv does nothing? Maybe I missed it? Would be great if that was wrong, I'd rather not spend triple that on one if a cheaper one works??

[taricha]

Originally Posted by Dfee

Taricha,

How does one ship a sample of Dino? I've never identified mine even though I'm hitting the two year mark with them (I think). I'd scrape some off my glass next time it builds up enough. I'd pay the shipping if you wouldn't mind identifying them for me. And maybe you get lucky and get the species you're looking for.

This was my answer to my other responder in PM.
I'll post here in case anyone else has a better idea how to ship dinos. Seriously, who ships dinos? And cares about them getting there alive? :-)

"I haven't shipped dinos either.
Dinos are tough enough I hope. I don't expect we'll need to be fancy. I'd suck out a nice amount of them off the rocks or sand or whatever and put in a clean water bottle (like 20oz), filling the rest almost completely with tank water, leave a little air.
Then I'd close it up, and wrap it in towels or old shirts or whatever for cushioning and insulation and shove it in a box."

Yes, I'll gladly put them under the scope and get pics/vids so we can ID them. Thanks a bunch! I'll PM you shipping details.

[taricha]

Originally Posted by 34cygni

Maybe 10 days is long enough to commence the shift to a population of benthic microorganisms typical of a cryptic ecosystem powered by secondary producers, making mixotrophic dinos and their cysts food for hungry heterotrophs.

So while I'm not endorsing the idea, I can see a mechanism that might explain why tastyfish is...

I've been thinking about what sort of things change between day 4 and day 10 of darkness. I'd expect die off of various things to significantly pick up making lots of nutrients available to bacteria etc.
And maybe it's not the issue that there's a different mechanism that takes effect between days 4 and 10. Maybe it's just the math of exponential growth: 2 to the 3rd is only 8, but 2 to the 10th power is 1024.

Also, you mentioned a hypothetical benthic heterotrophic dino species. Do we know of any such species? I haven't run across one.

[karimwassef]

Originally Posted by sinful

i tried finding a reference to a $100 uv. I'm all in on a UV working, I'm actually about to purchase one of the emperor aquatics 18 or 25w. From everything I've read a cheap uv does nothing? Maybe I missed it? Would be great if that was wrong, I'd rather not spend triple that on one if a cheaper one works??

As with all equipment, you'll find people who insist that only the most expensive product works and the rest is garbage...

UV is UV. You can argue that the cheaper models less efficient and will consume more power. You can argue that they're harder to keep clean. You can argue that they're large compared to the more compact versions, you can argue that the bulbs burn out sooner and need to be replaced more often, etc... etc...

But a UV bulb is a UV bulb... will it work? if it puts out enough UV AND you run water through it slowly, it will zap dinos (and anything else). It only took a few days for my tank to clear up, and a month to be dino free. I ran it for a few months after that and now only run it at night...

[sinful]

You ran a $100 uv on a 660g tank and it killed the Dino? Who makes it and where do I buy one?