Zoas in not looking good-HA+cyano-- low phos+nitrate

Wagonpitt · 11/20/2017, 11:54 PM

1400. Mag
7.7. Alk
480. Calcium
~0. Phos
~0 nitrate

Zoas not opening. All other coral are good. Ive got hair algae and been battling with red cyano. Im thinking hair algae and cyano are using phos and nitrate to fast so they dont show up in test. Also gfo reactor exit water shows ~0.

Been at it for a few weeks and cyano taking longer to show up between water changes so i think im making progress. Hair algae still growing

Is it possible my live rock is leaching? Cut down on frozen food, mostly feeding pellets.

Whats the lowest light period without hurting coral. Currently 7hr t5. 4hr include mh. Can i got 6 hr t5 with 2 hr mh.

Any idea on what else it could be or what else to do. Want to avoid chemicals and just starve out he algae and cyano

gtp0083 · 11/20/2017, 11:57 PM

How's the flow. Mine were doing poorly until I increased the flow over them. Then they all opened up beautifully. Just a thought

I also have a phosphate problem but the zoas visually aren't being affected.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RobZilla04 · 11/21/2017, 07:20 AM

You're fighting two battles at once IMO. An option to quickly rid the tank of cyano is ChemiClean. Yes it is a chemical. Yes it can be used incorrectly. I've used it twice and it never harmed anything except the intended target; Cyanobacteria.

The best option IMO is to run the chemiclean exactly as instructed on the box. Do so with the lights out. After the post chemiclean water change, wait one week then do another large WC. This will begin to remove the nutrients the GHA are thriving off of.

You'll need to know where the nutrients are coming from in the long term. How old is the tank? Did you use live rock, or base dry rock? What are you feeding and how much? Are you feeding coral food? Are you using RODI when mixing NSW? (What is the TDS reading from the RODI filter).

Any of those answers resulting in adding phosphates can be the culprit. If it is not corrected you're fighting a losing battle.

Timfish · 11/21/2017, 07:56 AM

I've seen this problem repeatedly: Hair algae and 0 PO4, 0 Nitrates. Corals need PO4 as much as algae does but algae is better at sucking up what's available and dumps DOC into the water that promotes pathogenic microbes to corals (get Forest Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas"). If you keep PO4 at 0 long enough without feeding heavily you will end up bleaching everything. Read post #98 in my skimmerless thread.

Wagonpitt · 11/21/2017, 08:31 AM

90dt
~30g sump with refugium.
3 powerheads in dt torchs down low get lots of action so good flow i think

Tank is about 8-9 months old but just recently moved to new house 2 months ago. For the first 2 weeks or so after move tank didnt get much attention and some params droped and ha and cyano started. For last few weeks ive been doing lots of big waterchanges and got params where they should be. So thats what makes me think rock must be releasing.

I feed new life spectrum chichlid formula once or twice daily, it varies
Nori strips almost everyday
I feed frozen spirulina mysis once every 2 days because my bangai cardinals dont eat the pellets. 3 bangai 2 anthia 2 clown 9 chromis 1 mimic tang=big bio load i think. Reef roids once every 2 weeks maby. I should mention cyphastrea open brain rock anemones chlice acans and other corals i have are all fine. Reefroids once every 2 weeks. I should probably cut down on some feeding but dont want fish starving. I use rodi and tds just started coming up 1-2 in last couple time i make water so will change di resin soon again. Ive checked rodi for phos and its good.

When i started cyano was coming back next day after waterchange. Now it takes 5-6 days so i think im makin progress. Every waterchange i pull as much hair algae off as i can but it grows back slower everytime but still grows back. So i think id like to "naturally" keep doing it arleast for a couple more weeks because im seeing progress. If im start to lose hope ill do the chemiclean i guess, ive read enough posts to know it works. But id still have underlying problem thats making the algae and cyano grow so im trying to take care of that.

I guess my biggest concern is the zoas and Pallys. They all look horrible and dont want them to die

Any idea what could be affecting them so much and not other corals ?

RobZilla04 · 11/21/2017, 08:44 AM

The zoas will come back. I've seen mine in some pretty terrible shape and nearly took them out once. Glad I didn't.

Your bio load is similar to mine. Feeding should only be to the amount that the fish can completely consume in two minutes. Any additional and you may be over feeding. Any pellets that fall to the bottom are likely not eaten. A CUC may scramble to get them but likely they are just sitting, slowly dissolving, and causing increase in nuisance nutrients.

I feed my similar bio load two cubes daily. One half Mysis, one half brine; frozen cubes at each feeding. I place a very small amount (10-15) small pellets in one of those feedings for the damsel & any other fish that want it.

The cichlid formula for salt water fish is new to me....

jlmawp · 11/21/2017, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobZilla04

The zoas will come back. I've seen mine in some pretty terrible shape and nearly took them out once. Glad I didn't.

+1

I have 4 different zoa colonies, and they really do fluctuate all the time. I have one colony that damn near disappears, then comes roaring back 2 months later to be bigger than the initial size. It's happened 3 different times. Don't ask me why, because I'm routinely stumped. Another colony grows super-slowly, but never has issues. The other two have more minor waxing and waning patterns. I've just stopped worrying about them as much.

Were they fine before, and now aren't opening, or have they never really been healthy?

Wagonpitt · 11/21/2017, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobZilla04

The cichlid formula for salt water fish is new to me....

A local recomended it when i was getting one of my first frags. He told me because he feeds meaty frozen he like to use that one because of higher veggie content. He has a nice tank and his fish looked healthy so i went with it and my fish love it and they look healthy. All the ones i mentioned eat it except the bangai cardinals. I also had a male anthias that stoped eating the pellets once he turned male and only ate frozen but lost him during the move.

Timfish ive read about the nutrients to low but i think i already feed a little on the heavy side and have a pretty big bio load. I just think the algae is using it faster then coral maby. Since they say zoas "like dirtier water" maby the algae is sucking up the dirtyness thats why zoas arnt doing good and everything else is great. I feel if i increase feeding il end up feeding even more algae.

Assuming thats the case hopefully manually removing it more often will let the zoas get some nutrients and they start coming back. I just dont know if thats the problem or if i should look for something else

Wagonpitt · 11/21/2017, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlmawp

+1

I have 4 different zoa colonies, and they really do fluctuate all the time. I have one colony that damn near disappears, then comes roaring back 2 months later to be bigger than the initial size. It's happened 3 different times. Don't ask me why, because I'm routinely stumped. Another colony grows super-slowly, but never has issues. The other two have more minor waxing and waning patterns. I've just stopped worrying about them as much.

Were they fine before, and now aren't opening, or have they never really been healthy?

They great befor and shortly after the move. But then for the first 2 or 3 weeks after i moved i really ended up slacking on the tank other then feeding and for the last month now they been totally closed. Every once in a while ill see the tiniest spec of color on the heads as if they are going to open but they never actually open

Its the same for all colonies and frags

vitodog · 11/21/2017, 11:38 AM

Might not be a nutrient issue. I think you said all other corals are fine. If so, your Zoas might be experiencing a pest issue. If possible, dip the Zoas in a quality coral dip such as Revive and see what jumps off.

Wagonpitt · 11/21/2017, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitodog

Might not be a nutrient issue. I think you said all other corals are fine. If so, your Zoas might be experiencing a pest issue. If possible, dip the Zoas in a quality coral dip such as Revive and see what jumps off.

Will try this tonight.

Wagonpitt · 11/21/2017, 08:30 PM

Dipped a frag in revive for about 15 min. Nothing realy came off swirled around good to knock anything loose. Did 15g waterchange and siphoned bottom and bunch of hair algae removed.
At the old house the tank was set up with a sand bed. When i moved i was in rush and put livestock and rock in tank and didnt add sand yet. So its now been running bare bottom for last 2 months. Is it possible the system is having trouble dealing with lack of sand bed. Its wasnt dsb. Only about 2inch all around but still theres all types of critters to break things doen that are no longer there.

I have another thread from within the last week about the sand bed. I have new cleaned sand sitting in bucket of rodi waiting to go in tank. Just trying to take care of this cyano and hair algae first because adding the send bed will probably make things worse right now.

RobZilla04 · 11/22/2017, 07:00 AM

You're doing too much at the same time still IMO. Removing the frag and placing in any chemical or solution is going to shock it. A WC was your best option. Definitely don't add to the sand bed. I always vacuum my sand bed during a WC. Nothing wrong with sucking out all that old detritus and trapped nonsense.

Manual removal of Cyano/Algae coupled with some black out days/nights and maybe another WC in a week would be my suggestion.

vitodog · 11/22/2017, 08:49 AM

[QUOTE=RobZilla04;25281799]You're doing too much at the same time still IMO. Removing the frag and placing in any chemical or solution is going to shock it. A WC was your best option. Definitely don't add to the sand bed. I always vacuum my sand bed during a WC. Nothing wrong with sucking out all that old detritus and trapped nonsense.

Manual removal of Cyano/Algae coupled with some black out days/nights and maybe another WC in a week would be my suggestion.[/QUOTE

The focus: The coral in question. IMO, new corals should be dipped before being placed in quarantine (certainly before being placed in the D/T) to relieve it of any possible unwanted hitchhikers. The PO stated that other corals in his/her tank were doing fine. So, since we are focusing on one coral in the D/T, the affected coral could be the victim of harassment by nearby corals or by a particular fish in the D/T. Rule out first.

Wagonpitt · 11/22/2017, 08:54 AM

only dipped the frag because it was suggested it could be a pest since its only zoas and palys affected. Out of a few colonies and frag plugs i have. The one i dipped is doing no worse then others becAuse they all look very unhappy regardless.
Im waiting to add sand bed like i said just wantsd to include that the system was used to sand bed and now there isnt one so maby that has something to do with my problems. I dont know i just thought id share.

Im sticking to the water changes and trimming but just dont want to lose all these zoas. I guess ill just leave them alone and hope they make it.

Thanks everyone for the advice.

11/20/2017, 11:54 PM	#1
Wagonpitt Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 112	Zoas in not looking good-HA+cyano-- low phos+nitrate 1400. Mag 7.7. Alk 480. Calcium ~0. Phos ~0 nitrate Zoas not opening. All other coral are good. Ive got hair algae and been battling with red cyano. Im thinking hair algae and cyano are using phos and nitrate to fast so they dont show up in test. Also gfo reactor exit water shows ~0. Been at it for a few weeks and cyano taking longer to show up between water changes so i think im making progress. Hair algae still growing Is it possible my live rock is leaching? Cut down on frozen food, mostly feeding pellets. Whats the lowest light period without hurting coral. Currently 7hr t5. 4hr include mh. Can i got 6 hr t5 with 2 hr mh. Any idea on what else it could be or what else to do. Want to avoid chemicals and just starve out he algae and cyano

11/21/2017, 07:20 AM	#3
RobZilla04 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: St. Augustine, FL Posts: 1,857	You're fighting two battles at once IMO. An option to quickly rid the tank of cyano is ChemiClean. Yes it is a chemical. Yes it can be used incorrectly. I've used it twice and it never harmed anything except the intended target; Cyanobacteria. The best option IMO is to run the chemiclean exactly as instructed on the box. Do so with the lights out. After the post chemiclean water change, wait one week then do another large WC. This will begin to remove the nutrients the GHA are thriving off of. You'll need to know where the nutrients are coming from in the long term. How old is the tank? Did you use live rock, or base dry rock? What are you feeding and how much? Are you feeding coral food? Are you using RODI when mixing NSW? (What is the TDS reading from the RODI filter). Any of those answers resulting in adding phosphates can be the culprit. If it is not corrected you're fighting a losing battle. __________________ 90g Mixed Reef

11/21/2017, 07:56 AM	#4
Timfish Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,985	I've seen this problem repeatedly: Hair algae and 0 PO4, 0 Nitrates. Corals need PO4 as much as algae does but algae is better at sucking up what's available and dumps DOC into the water that promotes pathogenic microbes to corals (get Forest Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas"). If you keep PO4 at 0 long enough without feeding heavily you will end up bleaching everything. Read post #98 in my skimmerless thread. __________________ "Our crystal clear aquaria come nowhere close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs" Charles Delbeek

11/21/2017, 08:44 AM	#6
RobZilla04 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: St. Augustine, FL Posts: 1,857	The zoas will come back. I've seen mine in some pretty terrible shape and nearly took them out once. Glad I didn't. Your bio load is similar to mine. Feeding should only be to the amount that the fish can completely consume in two minutes. Any additional and you may be over feeding. Any pellets that fall to the bottom are likely not eaten. A CUC may scramble to get them but likely they are just sitting, slowly dissolving, and causing increase in nuisance nutrients. I feed my similar bio load two cubes daily. One half Mysis, one half brine; frozen cubes at each feeding. I place a very small amount (10-15) small pellets in one of those feedings for the damsel & any other fish that want it. The cichlid formula for salt water fish is new to me.... __________________ 90g Mixed Reef

11/21/2017, 11:38 AM	#10
vitodog Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 1,226	Might not be a nutrient issue. I think you said all other corals are fine. If so, your Zoas might be experiencing a pest issue. If possible, dip the Zoas in a quality coral dip such as Revive and see what jumps off. __________________ Current Tank Info: 124.7 gal. Reef Savvy D/T, Trigger Systems 36" sump, Octo Elite 150-S, GHL Mitras LX7 x 3, Profilux3, Masterflex 7550-30 Peristaltic pump, Vector M1 return Pump, MP40w QD x 2

11/20/2017, 11:57 PM	#2
gtp0083 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: waddell, AZ Posts: 255	How's the flow. Mine were doing poorly until I increased the flow over them. Then they all opened up beautifully. Just a thought I also have a phosphate problem but the zoas visually aren't being affected. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

11/21/2017, 08:31 AM	#5
Wagonpitt Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 112	90dt ~30g sump with refugium. 3 powerheads in dt torchs down low get lots of action so good flow i think Tank is about 8-9 months old but just recently moved to new house 2 months ago. For the first 2 weeks or so after move tank didnt get much attention and some params droped and ha and cyano started. For last few weeks ive been doing lots of big waterchanges and got params where they should be. So thats what makes me think rock must be releasing. I feed new life spectrum chichlid formula once or twice daily, it varies Nori strips almost everyday I feed frozen spirulina mysis once every 2 days because my bangai cardinals dont eat the pellets. 3 bangai 2 anthia 2 clown 9 chromis 1 mimic tang=big bio load i think. Reef roids once every 2 weeks maby. I should mention cyphastrea open brain rock anemones chlice acans and other corals i have are all fine. Reefroids once every 2 weeks. I should probably cut down on some feeding but dont want fish starving. I use rodi and tds just started coming up 1-2 in last couple time i make water so will change di resin soon again. Ive checked rodi for phos and its good. When i started cyano was coming back next day after waterchange. Now it takes 5-6 days so i think im makin progress. Every waterchange i pull as much hair algae off as i can but it grows back slower everytime but still grows back. So i think id like to "naturally" keep doing it arleast for a couple more weeks because im seeing progress. If im start to lose hope ill do the chemiclean i guess, ive read enough posts to know it works. But id still have underlying problem thats making the algae and cyano grow so im trying to take care of that. I guess my biggest concern is the zoas and Pallys. They all look horrible and dont want them to die Any idea what could be affecting them so much and not other corals ?

11/21/2017, 08:30 PM	#12
Wagonpitt Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 112	Dipped a frag in revive for about 15 min. Nothing realy came off swirled around good to knock anything loose. Did 15g waterchange and siphoned bottom and bunch of hair algae removed. At the old house the tank was set up with a sand bed. When i moved i was in rush and put livestock and rock in tank and didnt add sand yet. So its now been running bare bottom for last 2 months. Is it possible the system is having trouble dealing with lack of sand bed. Its wasnt dsb. Only about 2inch all around but still theres all types of critters to break things doen that are no longer there. I have another thread from within the last week about the sand bed. I have new cleaned sand sitting in bucket of rodi waiting to go in tank. Just trying to take care of this cyano and hair algae first because adding the send bed will probably make things worse right now.

11/22/2017, 07:00 AM	#13
RobZilla04 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: St. Augustine, FL Posts: 1,857	You're doing too much at the same time still IMO. Removing the frag and placing in any chemical or solution is going to shock it. A WC was your best option. Definitely don't add to the sand bed. I always vacuum my sand bed during a WC. Nothing wrong with sucking out all that old detritus and trapped nonsense. Manual removal of Cyano/Algae coupled with some black out days/nights and maybe another WC in a week would be my suggestion. __________________ 90g Mixed Reef

11/22/2017, 08:49 AM	#14
vitodog Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 1,226	[QUOTE=RobZilla04;25281799]You're doing too much at the same time still IMO. Removing the frag and placing in any chemical or solution is going to shock it. A WC was your best option. Definitely don't add to the sand bed. I always vacuum my sand bed during a WC. Nothing wrong with sucking out all that old detritus and trapped nonsense. Manual removal of Cyano/Algae coupled with some black out days/nights and maybe another WC in a week would be my suggestion.[/QUOTE The focus: The coral in question. IMO, new corals should be dipped before being placed in quarantine (certainly before being placed in the D/T) to relieve it of any possible unwanted hitchhikers. The PO stated that other corals in his/her tank were doing fine. So, since we are focusing on one coral in the D/T, the affected coral could be the victim of harassment by nearby corals or by a particular fish in the D/T. Rule out first. __________________ Current Tank Info: 124.7 gal. Reef Savvy D/T, Trigger Systems 36" sump, Octo Elite 150-S, GHL Mitras LX7 x 3, Profilux3, Masterflex 7550-30 Peristaltic pump, Vector M1 return Pump, MP40w QD x 2

11/22/2017, 08:54 AM	#15
Wagonpitt Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 112	only dipped the frag because it was suggested it could be a pest since its only zoas and palys affected. Out of a few colonies and frag plugs i have. The one i dipped is doing no worse then others becAuse they all look very unhappy regardless. Im waiting to add sand bed like i said just wantsd to include that the system was used to sand bed and now there isnt one so maby that has something to do with my problems. I dont know i just thought id share. Im sticking to the water changes and trimming but just dont want to lose all these zoas. I guess ill just leave them alone and hope they make it. Thanks everyone for the advice.