Temperature extremes on the reef

[karimwassef]

Thanks. Bleached isn't the same as dead... we'll see what happens

[karimwassef]

So all fish and inverts look to have survived
Surprisingly, the largest coral colonies died but the smallest seam to have weathered it ok. It did vary significantly by species.



The two largest losses were a large green acro and large green hydnophora. The green slimer also died.





And some smaller pieces died too but all the tricolor acropora seems to have made it. I don't know it being large creates a burden on survival that smaller colonies don't contend with?

All birdsnest seemed dead. The stylophora seems to have preferentially jettisoned some polyps. The satosa looks ok but it may have gotten preferential heating since it was literally under the heater. The monti cap looks fine.

My small brain coral and pocillopora look ok.

[karimwassef]

Oh.. all the softies I've been trying to kill are GREAT! Xenia and GSP and buttons are happy as a clam...

So, my conclusion (so far) is that some coral are less susceptible to these extremes.

Monti cap & setosa
Tricolor acro & other acros
Closed brain
Pocillopora
All softies I had

Some had to take drastic actions like the stylophora

And some couldn't weather

Green acro
Hydnophora
Green Slimer
Birdsnest

This is after three days (and nights) in 60-66F

No fish or invert deaths

Painful but an interesting learning

[karimwassef]

Complicating unknowns..

With the low temperatures came darkness ... this actually persisted for a few days before the event leading to nearly a week of cloudy sub-200 peak PAR days compared to a usual 1600-1800 peak PAR.

Also- (admitting to my own stupidity here), the water line, kalk reactor and RO were too close to the door and far from the warmth of the greenhouse... the result is that the lines froze and the RO exploded (yes, really).

The result was that pH dropped hard and swung all over the place with no kalk additions and I expect Alk dropped too. pH went from a steady 8.34 to swinging between 7.8 and 8.2... I didn't measure Alk before restarting everything yesterday (doh!) but the damage was done by then.

[karimwassef]

I wish I could have fixed the Kalk to isolate the drivers of mortality but it was sub 20 and the greenhouse is remote

If I'd gone out, my wife would have been "unhappy".

So sorry about that but that's the data.

I have a few videos before and after that I'll post soon.

[Timfish]

I realize it may not be much consolation but it is educational and important data.
Can you give more info on the specific species or varieties or color morphs of each colony? Research looks at how corals react to increasing temperature so data in response to reduced temperatures is scarce.

Some of the differences could be different clades of zooxanthellae, even in the same colony. We know corals "learn" thier environment and the same colony may have areas with different responses even though DNA testing shows the same zooxanthellae.

We know stress events alters a corals holobiont and genomics testing has shown the different genotypes of a species have different resistance or immunities to increases in pathogenic bacteria. Any information you can give would be helpful.

[karimwassef]

Sure. It seems that all the green only corals died. The hydnophora, acro and slimer... the birsdnest was brown with green polyps. All the pink, purple, brown , red & multicolor are ok. Interesting comnection to color... I had that data but didn't make the connection. Grief can be a distraction

Thanks for pointing that out

On the softies, the GSP seems ok though. I had green mushrooms that were becoming a plague and I had removed most during the transfer... I don't recall seeing any after the freeze... hmmm

[karimwassef]

This tank will likely hit high 80s to 90s in the summer... so we'll learn a lot together.

[karimwassef]

Second day post freeze.. no big changes but confirmed that green SPS all died. Green softies stil there.

[karimwassef]

[karimwassef]

I am not planning on removing the dead for another month or so... mostly out of curiosity... I don't have hair algae, so I think they'll turn green with burrowing algae that only parrotfish can get at.

By the way, all the coral that died had frags in friends' tanks that are fine so I could regenerate them. Given their poor survivability, I don't think it's prudent until spring.

[karimwassef]

So apparently there's GFP (green fluorescent protein) that scientists are looking to correlate with coral thermal stress tolerance...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3594756/

[Timfish]

Yeah, that's the only paper I've so far found that specifically looked at cold stress on a coral. Acropora yuongii makes lots of GFP and maybe melanine as the only colors I see in it are green and brown which maybe why the researchers used it. It would be interesting to see how other FPs react in identical experiments. One of the intriguing responses is shown in fig. 2 where the flourescence increased even though the GFP was significantly reduced in the heat stressed examples.

[Subsea]

Karim,
Considering the extreme temperature fluctuations on our outdoor mariculture systems, I have been in contact with mariculture technicians from AgriLife Texas A&M Corporate Extension Service at Flour Bluff below Corpus Christi. Without a doubt, adding underground storage capacity will dampen out temperature fluctuations. Considering that it took 1000W of resistive heat to hold temperature at 54.8 degrees against four days below 32 degrees. I will deeply bury a 1500G tank into the ground and couple it to three 150G Rubbermade tanks in ground and a seaweed growout of Gracilaria Tikvahiae for a pilot study here in Austin on Red Ogo market as a Super Food. I will grow out grass shrimp, Palaemonetes vulgaris in Rubbermade system and pump thru 40W UV Sterilizer.

https://www.livebrineshrimp.com/ShrimpJanitor.htm

Considering 1000W of resistive heat as a standing expense each cold winter month of $72, I will bite the bullet with a one time expense to eliminate monthly heating and cooling expenses.

I say, bring the cold down. I am tired of all the bugs eating up my garden.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Tripod1404

I agree. Some people advertise GFO and GFO reactors as something that needs to be used in all tanks 24/7. But imo GFO is one of those compounds that should only be used if you are battling extremely high phosphates (or extreme algae growth). And this should only happen in new tanks that the rock or sand leaches Phosphate. If you need to use GFO in a mature tank, you are either overfeeding or dont have enough filtration.

Most of the explainable issues with corals can be traced back to over reduction of phosphate and/or an unbalance of nitrate and phosphate (N/P unbalance, mainly high N but trace P, is something that is rarely discussed by, in my experience is one of the main suspects for SPS bleaching). All this is tanks to over-advertisement of GFO.

GFO even cause nitrates to increase because it cause P to become a limiting factor for bacterial growth. And since we dont have a media that can strip water of N like GFO does for P, it causes the high N, trace P situation I explained above.

The point that Timfish made is drowned out by vendors and their fans. To further make the point about phosphate as a necessary component to organic life forms, every organic complex compound will have phosphate holding the molecules chained together. Why break the chains that mature our reef tanks?

While my reef keeping style would not agree with someone operating a low nutrient SPS tank, I choose to feed heavy and supply abundant nutrients to grow biomass. If some unsightly algae or cynobacteria were to grow because of the excess nutrients, then I would weed my garden. Either I would pull it or get an appropriate janitor.

[karimwassef]

Patrick. Sounds good. I'd love to come help and learn.

[Subsea]

When I get this 1500 gallon tank buried deeply in the ground, it will support 450G of Rubbermade tanks buried in ground and one 150G seaweed tumble culture tank. I will use utube monitoring to determine future heat exchange capabilities to increase above ground system size.
Considering all the discussions that we have done on Cryptic sponges, I think that my below ground 1500G sump will have beaucoup sponges.

I am presently discussing an inorganic nutrient cocktail with the Director of Algae Culture Collection, with the Department of Molecular Biosciences.

http://nsgl.gso.uri.edu/nhu/nhuh14001.pdf

This publication is cultivation Handbook for New England and list a nutrient formula. It seems to me that a concentrated phytoplankton fertilizer would be less complicated than what the New England macro growers are doing.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Patrick. Sounds good. I'd love to come help and learn.

Karim,
I need all the help I can get. I just did hire a high school apprentice. Interesting family history as the family left New Orleans after Katrina and moved to Bacliff on Galveston Bay. With both parents working as RN’s, they took two years to outfit a 50’ sailboat, then the family of five sailed the Caribbean for three years.
My body can not keep up with the things that I would like to do here. I hope the energy of a high school senior can boost my production output.

When I told Professor Samocha I would sell individual shrimp between $.50 and $1 each, I thought he was going to choke.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w2DTcrYwppE

https://www.livebrineshrimp.com/ShrimpJanitor.htm

[Subsea]

Karim,
I just remembered something about earth coupled heat pumps in which vertical 2” well is drilled and casing is capped on the bottom. This becomes a tube and shell heat exchanger in which water is pumped down a 1/2” pipe then back up in the annulus between exterior of 1/2” and interior of 2”. Each 100’ equals 1 ton of heat exchange: 12,500 BTU/Hr. It works best if your ground water is close to surface. Water conducts heat much better than earth. I lived in the recharge zone for the Chicot Reservoir with numerous spring feed creeks that were in the mid 60’s. The 1 ton per 100’ was documented in dry ground.

[Subsea]

I will try one thing here before paying for labor to bury 1500G tank. If I use ground water at 78 degrees(I know, that is warm coming from 1000’ down) and run it thru 1000’ of 1/2” bundled irrigation hose submerged in Rubbermade tanks I will be trying to warm 60 degree water. BTU heat transfer relies on temperature difference of two medians.

So if 1GPM flow was changed 10 degrees then, 1 GPM times 60 minutes per hour times 8.34 lbs per gallondegress then BTU per hour removed is 5004 BTU / Hr. With 12,500 BTU/Hr equal to a ton which equals 1 HP which is .745KW / Hr

Previously flowtested with volt meters and water meters, water from 1000’ down in the Trinity Aquifer cost me $0.28 per 1000G pumped. So, 60 gallons of water removed 5000 BTU of heat which would have cost a resistive heater at $0.10 per KWHr the ratio of
5000 divided by 12,500 equals $0.04 to add 5000 BTU with resistive heat.

How much to pump 1GPM of water for one hour with a 10 degree temperature difference to add same BTU as electric heater. If 1000G cost $0.28, then 60G cost equals $0.0168 at about 40% cost of resistive heat. I will get some help with lifting 1000’ hose bundle full of water.

[karimwassef]

I was only planning on going down 10' for my future greenhouse so I didn't spend much time calculating the cost to run the pumps. I see three mechanisms for geothermal... deep well pipe, underground reservoir, or shallow heat exchange pipes. I'm going with the pipes.

This weekend is another freezing snap. We'll see what that does in a couple of days. I'm seeing the bleached white corals turning brown so I'm assuming it's algae or bacteria. I'll take some close ups when I can.

Unfortunately, my ATO reservoir that feeds my kalk reactor has a sensor that failed in the extreme cold. I've had to turn the water supply off so the pH is fluctuating again. When I designed the system, I really didn't anticipate this many consecutive days of freeze and repeated freeze events too. What a winter!

[Subsea]

Labor bid to bury 1500G tank was $2700. I can not justify this expense without knowing the btu exchange rate to recover money. In the Edwards Plateau, limestone shelf is near the surface making excavation expensive.

Considering your future 10’ deep geothermal loop, do you know the ground temperature at 10’ deep. For my money, I would be interested in using a ditch witch narrow 6” trench as deep as possible and use 4” pvc thin wall pipe.

[Subsea]

Doing some research on ground temperatures in Central Texas: Dallas at 68 degrees, Houston & Austin at 71 degrees.

Considering that winter is almost over, I will initiate shrimp & macro co-culture in April. Evaporative cooling has never been a problem to maintain 80 degrees in 100+ degree days.

[Kevin Guthrie]

Innerspace Cavern says their temp is 72. If you go deep enough this will not change seasonally. I think what you want is surface area, not bulk, so piping would be better than reservoir because it will continue to help all during the summer and winter months, not just to even out the daily swings.

Not sure it is a good idea to run your reef water thru underground pipes directly because the pipes will eventually get occluded with growth. Better to pump it thru pipes or tubing in your tanks for heat exchange their.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Kevin Guthrie

Innerspace Cavern says their temp is 72. If you go deep enough this will not change seasonally. I think what you want is surface area, not bulk, so piping would be better than reservoir because it will continue to help all during the summer and winter months, not just to even out the daily swings.

Not sure it is a good idea to run your reef water thru underground pipes directly because the pipes will eventually get occluded with growth. Better to pump it thru pipes or tubing in your tanks for heat exchange their.

Biological fouling is an important consideration for heat exchange. For my situation, with a 5HP well at 900’, I can pump 77 degree water thru 1000’ of 1/2” irrigation coiled tubing. Adding btu with water well pump cost 1/3 of resistive heating.
In my home, I just installed a ductless heat pump at a 20.5 SEER, meaning I get 20 times the btu than with resistive heat. Economics tells that if my operation was big enough, I should buy a heat pump.