Apex outlet stuck on

DaFishHead · 04/03/2010, 07:09 PM

I have a outlet on my apex that stays on. I used to have a C02 cylinder plugged in. However now I have a fan plugged in. With both the outlet stays on. I have tried to set it to "manual off" with no luck.

Any ideas what may be wrong?
Thanks

tamu · 04/03/2010, 07:13 PM

Probably not in outlet 4 or 8, correct?
Those are mechanical relays and can shut off low power factor devices. Try it there if you have not yet.

DaFishHead · 04/03/2010, 07:23 PM

I have the fan plugged into #1. All of my outlets are full. I can move the fan to 8 but then I have to move something else to #1. So that is not a solution.

Any ideas why the outlets stick on? Any ideas how to fix them?

Thanks

tamu · 04/03/2010, 07:33 PM

You need to move them, because the low power factor devices (solenoids, fans, etc) need to be plugged into 4 & 8. If they are on the other outlets, there is the possibility like you have found that the triac controlling those outlets can not properly shut the outlet off. The mechanical relay will be able to shut off the solenoid or fan with no problem.

If you plug a light into that outlet you are having an issue with at the moment, it should shut off fine.

RussM · 04/03/2010, 07:55 PM

+1 on Tamu's advice. There's nothing wrong with your outlet #1 - this is normal behavior when used with some low-power devices.

Outlets #4 and #8 are relay-controlled. Outlets #1-3 and #5-7 are controlled by a solid-state device called a TRIAC.

TRIACs are good because they never wear out (unlike relays which are mechanical), are silent (no clicking like relays do), and better for devices which have a large startup current draw (like IC660 and some MH ballasts), which can cause arcing inside a relay.

The drawback of a TRIAC is that they require a certain amount of current to be drawn through the TRAIC by the controlled device. If there isn't enough current being drawn, they may not properly shut off properly, so the device stays powered up. Dosing pumps, solenoids, smaller fans, and small powerheads all may cause this.... they turn on just fine, but won't shut off.

So, while the relay-controlled outlets are good for heavy-load items like bigger pumps, bigger chillers, and high-wattage heaters (like 500w & 1000w), they are also excellent to use for those very low power items.

DaFishHead · 04/04/2010, 03:45 PM

I have four 250 watt heaters three fans and one solenoid controlled by my EB8.

Basically you are telling me that other than outlet #4 and #8 my other outlets are all at risk of staying on?

That STINKS!!!!

Is there a better product that I should have spent my money on?

tamu · 04/04/2010, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaFishHead

Basically you are telling me that other than outlet #4 and #8 my other outlets are all at risk of staying on?

That STINKS!!!!

Is there a better product that I should have spent my money on?

Your heaters will not stick ON on outlets 1-3,5-7. I have my canopy fans and sump fans on those outlets as well and do not have OFF problems. The solenoid is almost a must to be on 4 or 8.

As stated, anything that has a low current draw/power factor has the possibility of not being turned off if running on outlets 1-3,5-7. 250W does not fall into that category.

I suggest if you think this product is junk, then try out the competitor.

aquamanic · 04/04/2010, 06:04 PM

We're talking devices that draw < 5 watts before you'll have a problem. That's nothing. Try getting light from a 5 watt lightbulb! The advantages of TRIAC outlets far outweigh the 'low power shutoff' problem. Just recognize that its there and work around it. If you're short of relay outlets, just add some other device to your triac outlet along with your low power device to get your current consumption up a little bit. It's not a big deal.

DaFishHead · 04/04/2010, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamu

I suggest if you think this product is junk, then try out the competitor.

Ahhh........yeah tamu.....I have money to just throw away.....I'll get right on that.

Here is a post Tamu about how I feel about the competition.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1711947

The truth be known I love my apex. Still a outlet that sticks open as I said before "Stinks"

Trying to get the outlet so that it is not stuck on. So far I have hooked up a power saw and ran it while I was trying to get the outlet off. No luck

Then, with the help of a power strip, I plugged in three heaters into one outlet and then tried to force the outlet off. No luck with that either. Once the outlet is locked open, is there anyway to get it fixed? Do I have to send it in? Will Neptune take it?

aquamanic · 04/04/2010, 07:30 PM

Unplug the EB8, wait a few seconds and plug it back in. If that doesn't clear it than something else is wrong. Normally all it takes is manually turning it off.

If you look in the XML Outlet log on the web page (far right), does the outlet show as being OFF?

tamu · 04/04/2010, 07:49 PM

Of course they will work with you if it is a hardware issue. You will be amazed the level of customer service. Hardware failures occur all the time with electronics and it's not the end of the world.

You asked the question, I was giving you an option. The Apex destroys the competition (I've run both units).

Don't we all throw money away the minute we start this hobby

slief · 04/04/2010, 07:51 PM

Do you have another outlet with the same name as the one that wont turn off?? If 2 outlets have the same name, you might see the same issue.

FWIW. I just added a solenoid to my system a couple days ago and had to put it on 4 or 8 as it wouldnt turn off either on the other outlets. Wasn't a big deal for me as it was the only device on that EB8 that was really low draw.

tamu · 04/04/2010, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slief

Do you have another outlet with the same name as the one that wont turn off?? If 2 outlets have the same name, you might see the same issue.

FWIW. I just added a solenoid to my system a couple days ago and had to put it on 4 or 8 as it wouldnt turn off either on the other outlets. Wasn't a big deal for me as it was the only device on that EB8 that was really low draw.

Good idea to check the naming of the outlet.
It seems as if most controllers run a mixture of triacs and mechanical relays and the issue with shutoff does arise.

DaFishHead · 04/05/2010, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquamanic

Unplug the EB8, wait a few seconds and plug it back in. If that doesn't clear it than something else is wrong. Normally all it takes is manually turning it off.

If you look in the XML Outlet log on the web page (far right), does the outlet show as being OFF?

I will try this tonight. Yes it shows my outlet as off

The name of the stuck outlet is called Fan-A. I have two others named Fan-B and Fan-C but not the exact same name.

I will report tomorrow.

Yes the Customer service that Neptune DESTROYS the competition!!
Curt from Neptune has been amazing when I have had problems.
Let's hope I don't have to bother them.

gnoles · 04/05/2010, 09:38 PM

I'm having this happen on one of my Triacs... I moved two sets of moonlights to instead of the small pump that was on it and still the same thing. I'll pull the plug tomorrow and see if that resets it. This only recently began happening or I'd have all my topoff water in the tank. One thing of note, when I cycled on and off the relay where I moved my autotopoff, the stuck triac turned off to match the controller.

DaFishHead · 04/06/2010, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquamanic

Unplug the EB8, wait a few seconds and plug it back in. If that doesn't clear it than something else is wrong. Normally all it takes is manually turning it off.

If you look in the XML Outlet log on the web page (far right), does the outlet show as being OFF?

Well no dice.
No luck for me.
Tried to reset the outlet and I had no luck. Looks like it is time to contact Neptune for more ideas.

Thanks for the ideas.

pencil3 · 04/06/2010, 04:15 PM

Count me in too. Happened this morning. Stuck on and can't turn it off unless it's unplugged. Can turn it on then, but not back off. Fine for two weeks before this.

aquamanic · 04/06/2010, 08:04 PM

If you look at your modules at the bottom of the Module Setup web page, does your EB8 show with the same software version number as the rest of your modules?

You might try reloading the firmware to the EB8 and see if that helps. Select the EB8 in the Module Setup page, click the Update Firmware radio button then Submit.

pencil3 · 04/06/2010, 08:51 PM

All of my eb8s are 006. PM1s PM2s and displays all have matching firmware versions (there are multiples of each installed). Mine is outlet 3, does not matter what is plugged in there it can't be turned off after it is turned on.

aquamanic · 04/07/2010, 05:03 AM

Contact Neptune at support@neptunesys.com . Still feels like a logic problem of some sorts but maybe the EB8 is bad.

DaFishHead · 04/07/2010, 04:14 PM

Talked to Neptune. Their customer service is great. I am sending it in for repair.

I hope this is not a common problem.

Reef on!!

jwalker314 · 04/14/2010, 06:45 PM

i am having this same problem as well, outlet 5 on mine. Is there any other solution other than disrupting my system and the timers and sending the EB8 away? my tank relies on my APEX to work on a daily basis. thanks.

DaFishHead · 04/19/2010, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwalker314

i am having this same problem as well, outlet 5 on mine. Is there any other solution other than disrupting my system and the timers and sending the EB8 away? my tank relies on my APEX to work on a daily basis. thanks.

None that I know of

kenargo · 04/19/2010, 11:15 PM

Purchase a backup EB8...

I know this might appear over the top by some but (personally) I wouldn't have it any other way; I have too much invested to be without something as critical as a controller.

Early on I would purchase a device as one needed to go in for repair but over time I ended up with a full spare for all critical components.

slief · 04/19/2010, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenargo

Purchase a backup EB8...

I know this might appear over the top by some but (personally) I wouldn't have it any other way; I have too much invested to be without something as critical as a controller.

Early on I would purchase a device as one needed to go in for repair but over time I ended up with a full spare for all critical components.

Those are some serious words of wisdom right there! Being in the computer business, I know the value of spares. I have 5 EB8's and none of them are spares as all are in use. The fish rots from the head. I need to get myself some spare parts.

All things can and WILL fail. You are dieing from the day you are born. Some will die sooner than others. Some even die at birth (DOA).

Electronics are no different unfortunately.

04/04/2010, 07:30 PM	#10
aquamanic WHO DAT?? Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 5,709	Unplug the EB8, wait a few seconds and plug it back in. If that doesn't clear it than something else is wrong. Normally all it takes is manually turning it off. If you look in the XML Outlet log on the web page (far right), does the outlet show as being OFF? __________________ I don't work for Neptune. Please put all questions into forum posts and not PM's. Visit the Neptune Community Forums for the latest Neptune updates - forum.neptunesystems.com Last edited by aquamanic; 04/04/2010 at 07:38 PM.

04/04/2010, 07:51 PM	#12
slief RC Sponsor Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 14,173	Do you have another outlet with the same name as the one that wont turn off?? If 2 outlets have the same name, you might see the same issue. FWIW. I just added a solenoid to my system a couple days ago and had to put it on 4 or 8 as it wouldnt turn off either on the other outlets. Wasn't a big deal for me as it was the only device on that EB8 that was really low draw. __________________ Director Customer Support Royal Exclusiv USA For All Royal Exclusiv & Bubble King questions please refer to our Sponsor forum: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/fo...play.php?f=745 Current Tank Info: 480G display mixed reef, 90G sump, 90G refugium, 60G display refugium. Check out my build thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1783476

04/05/2010, 09:38 PM	#15
gnoles Equipment Junkie Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cleveland, AL Posts: 288	I'm having this happen on one of my Triacs... I moved two sets of moonlights to instead of the small pump that was on it and still the same thing. I'll pull the plug tomorrow and see if that resets it. This only recently began happening or I'd have all my topoff water in the tank. One thing of note, when I cycled on and off the relay where I moved my autotopoff, the stuck triac turned off to match the controller. __________________ Gary "Most people learn by observation, and there are the few who learn by experimentation. And then there are those who actually TOUCH the fire to see if it's really hot." - Anonymous Current Tank Info: 185 gallon tank, working on automating the sucker!

04/06/2010, 08:04 PM	#18
aquamanic WHO DAT?? Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 5,709	If you look at your modules at the bottom of the Module Setup web page, does your EB8 show with the same software version number as the rest of your modules? You might try reloading the firmware to the EB8 and see if that helps. Select the EB8 in the Module Setup page, click the Update Firmware radio button then Submit. __________________ I don't work for Neptune. Please put all questions into forum posts and not PM's. Visit the Neptune Community Forums for the latest Neptune updates - forum.neptunesystems.com

04/07/2010, 05:03 AM	#20
aquamanic WHO DAT?? Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 5,709	Contact Neptune at support@neptunesys.com . Still feels like a logic problem of some sorts but maybe the EB8 is bad. __________________ I don't work for Neptune. Please put all questions into forum posts and not PM's. Visit the Neptune Community Forums for the latest Neptune updates - forum.neptunesystems.com

04/03/2010, 07:09 PM	#1
DaFishHead Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 174	Apex outlet stuck on I have a outlet on my apex that stays on. I used to have a C02 cylinder plugged in. However now I have a fan plugged in. With both the outlet stays on. I have tried to set it to "manual off" with no luck. Any ideas what may be wrong? Thanks

04/03/2010, 07:13 PM	#2
tamu Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 327	Probably not in outlet 4 or 8, correct? Those are mechanical relays and can shut off low power factor devices. Try it there if you have not yet.

04/03/2010, 07:23 PM	#3
DaFishHead Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 174	I have the fan plugged into #1. All of my outlets are full. I can move the fan to 8 but then I have to move something else to #1. So that is not a solution. Any ideas why the outlets stick on? Any ideas how to fix them? Thanks

04/03/2010, 07:33 PM	#4
tamu Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 327	You need to move them, because the low power factor devices (solenoids, fans, etc) need to be plugged into 4 & 8. If they are on the other outlets, there is the possibility like you have found that the triac controlling those outlets can not properly shut the outlet off. The mechanical relay will be able to shut off the solenoid or fan with no problem. If you plug a light into that outlet you are having an issue with at the moment, it should shut off fine.

04/03/2010, 07:55 PM	#5
RussM Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: El Cajon, CA Posts: 7,818	+1 on Tamu's advice. There's nothing wrong with your outlet #1 - this is normal behavior when used with some low-power devices. Outlets #4 and #8 are relay-controlled. Outlets #1-3 and #5-7 are controlled by a solid-state device called a TRIAC. TRIACs are good because they never wear out (unlike relays which are mechanical), are silent (no clicking like relays do), and better for devices which have a large startup current draw (like IC660 and some MH ballasts), which can cause arcing inside a relay. The drawback of a TRIAC is that they require a certain amount of current to be drawn through the TRAIC by the controlled device. If there isn't enough current being drawn, they may not properly shut off properly, so the device stays powered up. Dosing pumps, solenoids, smaller fans, and small powerheads all may cause this.... they turn on just fine, but won't shut off. So, while the relay-controlled outlets are good for heavy-load items like bigger pumps, bigger chillers, and high-wattage heaters (like 500w & 1000w), they are also excellent to use for those very low power items.

04/04/2010, 03:45 PM	#6
DaFishHead Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 174	I have four 250 watt heaters three fans and one solenoid controlled by my EB8. Basically you are telling me that other than outlet #4 and #8 my other outlets are all at risk of staying on? That STINKS!!!! Is there a better product that I should have spent my money on?

04/04/2010, 06:04 PM	#8
aquamanic WHO DAT?? Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 5,709	We're talking devices that draw < 5 watts before you'll have a problem. That's nothing. Try getting light from a 5 watt lightbulb! The advantages of TRIAC outlets far outweigh the 'low power shutoff' problem. Just recognize that its there and work around it. If you're short of relay outlets, just add some other device to your triac outlet along with your low power device to get your current consumption up a little bit. It's not a big deal. __________________ I don't work for Neptune. Please put all questions into forum posts and not PM's. Visit the Neptune Community Forums for the latest Neptune updates - forum.neptunesystems.com

04/04/2010, 07:49 PM	#11
tamu Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 327	Of course they will work with you if it is a hardware issue. You will be amazed the level of customer service. Hardware failures occur all the time with electronics and it's not the end of the world. You asked the question, I was giving you an option. The Apex destroys the competition (I've run both units). Don't we all throw money away the minute we start this hobby

04/06/2010, 04:15 PM	#17
pencil3 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 282	Count me in too. Happened this morning. Stuck on and can't turn it off unless it's unplugged. Can turn it on then, but not back off. Fine for two weeks before this.

04/06/2010, 08:51 PM	#19
pencil3 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 282	All of my eb8s are 006. PM1s PM2s and displays all have matching firmware versions (there are multiples of each installed). Mine is outlet 3, does not matter what is plugged in there it can't be turned off after it is turned on.

04/07/2010, 04:14 PM	#21
DaFishHead Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 174	Talked to Neptune. Their customer service is great. I am sending it in for repair. I hope this is not a common problem. Reef on!!

04/14/2010, 06:45 PM	#22
jwalker314 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Landenberg, PA Posts: 421	i am having this same problem as well, outlet 5 on mine. Is there any other solution other than disrupting my system and the timers and sending the EB8 away? my tank relies on my APEX to work on a daily basis. thanks.

04/19/2010, 11:15 PM	#24
kenargo Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Redmond, WA Posts: 8,151	Purchase a backup EB8... I know this might appear over the top by some but (personally) I wouldn't have it any other way; I have too much invested to be without something as critical as a controller. Early on I would purchase a device as one needed to go in for repair but over time I ended up with a full spare for all critical components. __________________ Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc.