Reef Central Online Community

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > The Reef Chemistry Forum
Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 05/22/2014, 01:55 PM   #1
watchguy123
Registered Member
 
watchguy123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,074
Water change--how much is too much

I have never understood the rationale for the amount or frequency of water changes. I do understand the basis of water changes. ie, replacing trace elements and removing unwanted elements. I realize there are those that prefer no water changes but what I want to know is how much is too much

I have a 180 gallon tank with a 30 gallon sump and 20 gallon refugium but between the rock and sump equipment (skimmer, etc), I estimate 180 is the water volume. Lots and lots of coral and a good assortment of fish. Calcium reactor, chaeto and occasional gfo in a reactor. Parameters stable and appropriate.

I have historically done 10 gallons weekly because it was convenient.

What happens if I start 5 gallon water changes daily. Am I going to adversely remove plankton that my corals are feeding on or create some other unintended negative effect. The goal is help keep the water near ideal conditions. I want to make sure sure there is no buildup of unwanted elements as well as no depletion of desired water elements. I don't plan on changing any of my current husbandry efforts (skimming, chaeto, parameter testing, etc).


watchguy123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/22/2014, 03:44 PM   #2
BrentH
Registered Member
 
BrentH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: so cal
Posts: 1,288
I'm curious as we'll ...... 5 gallons a day to me seems small enough to not cause major perimeter changes or if it does would be gradual ..tagging along


BrentH is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/22/2014, 03:48 PM   #3
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
 
Randy Holmes-Farley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 86,233
I show what different sizes and types of water changes can accomplish here:

Water Changes in Reef Aquaria
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

I generally recommend about 1% daily, but more isn't a concern and is likely beneficial if you have good quality salt water. Your 5 gallons daily is probably about 3%.


__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley

Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef
Randy Holmes-Farley is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/22/2014, 03:58 PM   #4
madadi
ReefOG
 
madadi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Morton grove, IL
Posts: 3,976
As long as its not causing shifts in your water parameters and temp on a daily basis I think the more the better.


__________________
-~adrian~-

LETS TRADE YUMAS

Current Tank Info: Glass box.
madadi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/22/2014, 06:37 PM   #5
neurodev
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4
My tank is very similar to yours(in terms of volume). I went from changing 15-20 gallons a week to 4 gallons daily over the past few months. Tank never looked better. It is a mixed reef and SPS are thriving. A 4 Gallon change only takes a few minutes.
I vacuum and clean sponges in sump every 2 weeks


neurodev is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/22/2014, 09:04 PM   #6
watchguy123
Registered Member
 
watchguy123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,074
My idea is certainly not original. I don't remember if it was on this forum or another where a fellow reefer has been doing these sorts of water changes. And I am clear on making sure that the new water has similar parameters as the display ( temp, pH, alk, salinity, etc)

My thoughts were that I could diminish nitrates and phosphates through these water changes as per Randy Holmes-Farley: Water Changes in Reef Aquaria http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php. And as I've already said I currently have a skimmer, use occasional GFO in a reactor, I also have a small bag of carbon (the black carbon not bio pellets ), Chaeto.

What I would most like to do is avoid long term accumulation of anything toxic and avoid depletion of anything essential like a trace element.

I believe I test parameters reasonably regularly but I hate test kits because of their seemingly poor consistency and accuracy. It is difficult to be committed to testing regularly when you are doubtful about the results. And yes I have tried Hanna checkers, Red Sea, Salifert, etc. My favorite test kit is the Hanna alk checker because it does seem accurate and consistent. I only test for alk, mag, ca, salinity, less frequently for nitrates and phosphates. I know there are more test kits for more elements but I am limited by my drive, frustration with current test kits reliability and quite frankly my unwillingness (laziness) in wanting to add a gazillion trace elements

My tank has been up for years with lots of live rock and a deep sand bed.

Changing only five gallons means I don't have to turn off my return or power heads. The only thing I have to turn off during the water change is my ATO. It's fast and reasonably easy, plus it gives me an excuse to stand in front of the tank for a few minutes and observe and enjoy

What I don't know is if there are organisms in the water column that are beneficial,and whether I am removing too much of these with the frequent water changes.


watchguy123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/22/2014, 09:29 PM   #7
scott3569
Registered Member
 
scott3569's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Middletown,VA
Posts: 929
This is a very interesting thread for me..I am quit new, and have been doing a lot of research..

As for the very last question, I would understand it, as No you are not pulling out and beneficial organisms when you do a water change, and if so, it would be very minimal..most of your beneficial organisms are in your rock, and your sand bed, and as you have it the cheato......

I say this because my way of thinking is, if you did pull out that many beneficial organisms, than things could not thrive..and quite obviously they in fact do..they thrive even when a 50% or large water change is done..

I may very well be way off, but thats my 2c


__________________
I'm in a fishy situation!!!

Current Tank Info: 56 gallon 30 x 18 x 22 with a 40gal sump, SCA 302 skimmer, 10 gal QT tank, a hydror 600 power head, 2 enhiem 150 heaters, 49#'s of dry rock, 12#'s of life rock, 40#'s of sand
scott3569 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/22/2014, 09:36 PM   #8
AcroporAddict
There is no substitute.
 
AcroporAddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Southeast
Posts: 2,269
I doubt 5 gallons daily would hurt your system, but that is a lot, IMO. Probably not necessary. I do 4.6 gallons daily in my 450 net gallon system, or about 1%.


AcroporAddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/22/2014, 10:24 PM   #9
watchguy123
Registered Member
 
watchguy123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcroporAddict View Post
I doubt 5 gallons daily would hurt your system, but that is a lot, IMO. Probably not necessary. I do 4.6 gallons daily in my 450 net gallon system, or about 1%.
Five gallons was chosen, because it is convenient. Drain five gallon jug of tank water, replace with five gallon jug of new water. I imagine I could find a smaller container like a 2 gallon as a possibility.

But the point of the thread and my question really is how much is optimal as well as easily manageable.


watchguy123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/22/2014, 10:50 PM   #10
dgelz
Registered Member
 
dgelz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: southern california
Posts: 262
Personally, do you real ally think you'll keep up with doing this daily? For how long? I think the objective of having a reef tank is to minimize the maintenance, or at least make it non-bothersome. Doing daily water changes seems like it might cause burnout.


dgelz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/22/2014, 10:58 PM   #11
watchguy123
Registered Member
 
watchguy123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgelz View Post
Personally, do you real ally think you'll keep up with doing this daily? For how long? I think the objective of having a reef tank is to minimize the maintenance, or at least make it non-bothersome. Doing daily water changes seems like it might cause burnout.
Perhaps but I feed my fish daily. I look at everything daily, check out skimmer if its functioning correctly as well as everything else, daily. Look at coral, polyp extension, fish daily. I have an apex controller but I still visually try to check each piece of equipment as well as livestock , literally everything daily. So far its been years and of course my diligence wavers in upkeep but not in observation. Best part of a reef tank is staring at it.

So even if I waiver a little bit, I don't think it will make much of a difference. I guess I think of it all like flossing, just get up every morning and do it.


watchguy123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/23/2014, 04:44 AM   #12
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
 
Randy Holmes-Farley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arlington, Massachusetts
Posts: 86,233
FWIW, It is easy to automate water changes of any size. Mine are automatic at ~1% daily, but the type of pump I use can be obtained in 15 or 30 gallon per day models, and a timer can drop that back to what you want.

FWIW, I think that big water changes daily might be among the best filtration methods for nanotanks, and they might not need anything else.


__________________
Randy Holmes-Farley

Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef
Randy Holmes-Farley is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/23/2014, 11:18 AM   #13
tmz
ReefKeeping Mag staff

 
tmz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: West Seneca NY
Posts: 27,691
FWIW, I do 1% daily and a little extra probably totaling another 10% per month( rarely as much as 5% at a time) for maintenance related tasks.


__________________
Tom

Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

Last edited by tmz; 05/23/2014 at 11:24 AM.
tmz is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/23/2014, 04:59 PM   #14
AcroporAddict
There is no substitute.
 
AcroporAddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Southeast
Posts: 2,269
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchguy123 View Post
Five gallons was chosen, because it is convenient. Drain five gallon jug of tank water, replace with five gallon jug of new water. I imagine I could find a smaller container like a 2 gallon as a possibility.

But the point of the thread and my question really is how much is optimal as well as easily manageable.
I emulated TMZ's and Randy's practice of 1% daily. Their advice is always good, IMO.

My water change is automated via a Cole Parmer Dual Head Masterflex Peristaltic Dosing pump. Bought the entire setup off ebay used for $225. Probably one of the best things I have done for my reef and myself.




AcroporAddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/23/2014, 07:38 PM   #15
watchguy123
Registered Member
 
watchguy123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,074
Now that is one very serious auto water changer. Very cool


watchguy123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05/23/2014, 08:36 PM   #16
AcroporAddict
There is no substitute.
 
AcroporAddict's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Southeast
Posts: 2,269
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchguy123 View Post
Now that is one very serious auto water changer. Very cool
Thank you. The thing about it is it needs no check valves, float valves, or anything. The three pump rollers keep the lines sealed at all times. Run it at whatever speed for 15 minutes to get a flow rate, then have it run via a timer to change the volume you need. Change out the tubing every 6-9 months. Hardcore equipment reliability, but a very functionally simple setup.


AcroporAddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/04/2017, 10:05 PM   #17
ReefKeeper64
Wanna be a reefkeeper
 
ReefKeeper64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Tampa
Posts: 1,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcroporAddict View Post
Thank you. The thing about it is it needs no check valves, float valves, or anything. The three pump rollers keep the lines sealed at all times. Run it at whatever speed for 15 minutes to get a flow rate, then have it run via a timer to change the volume you need. Change out the tubing every 6-9 months. Hardcore equipment reliability, but a very functionally simple setup.
AcroporAddict, Do you mind if I ask you what tubing you use with your dual head cole-parmer pump and where you get it from? I have one such pump and looked into ordering new tubing from cole-parmer a while back. With so many choices on their site, I wasn't sure which tubing to select and ended up shelving the idea.

Thanks


__________________
Reef Savvy 110g Tank | GHL Profilux 4 Controller & Doser | Royal Exclusiv Skimmer & Dreambox/Sump | ATI 8x54 Sunpower T5 | Ozotech Ozone Generator
ReefKeeper64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/04/2017, 10:21 PM   #18
slief
RC Sponsor

 
slief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,173
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefKeeper64 View Post
AcroporAddict, Do you mind if I ask you what tubing you use with your dual head cole-parmer pump and where you get it from? I have one such pump and looked into ordering new tubing from cole-parmer a while back. With so many choices on their site, I wasn't sure which tubing to select and ended up shelving the idea.

Thanks
It is going to depend on the heads you have. If you have Easy Load heads, then you want the norprene type tubing as it’s the most durable. There are different size tubing and different heads support different sizes. Ideally your pump would support LS17 tubing. If it were me, I would go from LS17 tubing to John Guest fittings and then use 1/4” RODI type tubing. For that combo, this is what you would need.
Several feet of this tubing. Each head needs about 8-10” but you want to have spare so you can swap tubing every 4-6 months or as needed based on how much water you are changing which impacts the amount of wear on the tubing.

LS17 equivalent tubing. Note, that is is for easy load heads that support LS17.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=25534

Qty 4 1/4” x 1/8 John Guest fittings :
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=42009

Qty 4 1/4” x 1/8” barb fittings:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=36204

Qty 4 snap rings:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=34082


__________________
Director Customer Support Royal Exclusiv USA
For All Royal Exclusiv & Bubble King questions please refer to our Sponsor forum: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/fo...play.php?f=745

Current Tank Info: 480G display mixed reef, 90G sump, 90G refugium, 60G display refugium. Check out my build thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1783476
slief is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/05/2017, 12:31 AM   #19
outy
Moved On
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: auburn CA
Posts: 4,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchguy123 View Post
but what I want to know is how much is too much
Every tank is different.


I'm set up for 100g water changes for about 260g ish total volume, currently I tend to do every 4-6 weeks depending on my time.

My problem is my sand bed has a 5-7 year capacity and when its new my tank will remain perfect sometimes with yearly water changes.

I just redid my DSB and I'm going to see if I change water every 4-6 without fail, if I can stretch the DSB to a decade.

My sand turns rock hard a inch or two down with time, and coral growth leaves me with a few inches in front only that I am able to keep the sand from turning solid. This time around I may throw a clean up crew for sand sifting. Problem in the past is that for over 2 decades I have had a hidden pistol shrimp that eats what ever I have put in the tank. This time around I think its gone. No more tapping in the midnight.


outy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/05/2017, 02:01 PM   #20
ReefKeeper64
Wanna be a reefkeeper
 
ReefKeeper64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Tampa
Posts: 1,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by slief View Post
It is going to depend on the heads you have. If you have Easy Load heads, then you want the norprene type tubing as it’s the most durable. There are different size tubing and different heads support different sizes. Ideally your pump would support LS17 tubing. If it were me, I would go from LS17 tubing to John Guest fittings and then use 1/4” RODI type tubing. For that combo, this is what you would need.
Several feet of this tubing. Each head needs about 8-10” but you want to have spare so you can swap tubing every 4-6 months or as needed based on how much water you are changing which impacts the amount of wear on the tubing.

LS17 equivalent tubing. Note, that is is for easy load heads that support LS17.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=25534

Qty 4 1/4” x 1/8 John Guest fittings :
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=42009

Qty 4 1/4” x 1/8” barb fittings:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=36204

Qty 4 snap rings:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=34082

Hey Slief, Thanks for these links. This is most helpful. I checked and the pump heads support LS17 (1/4" inner diameter) tubing. They also support the slightly larger LS18 (5/16" inner diameter) tubing.
Should I consider the LS18 tubing since this is for water changes? I figure the fewer RPMs needed, the better. Perhaps 17 just works better for water changes with regards to vacuum or something along those lines?





Attached Images
File Type: jpg MasterflexPump.jpg (45.4 KB, 81 views)
__________________
Reef Savvy 110g Tank | GHL Profilux 4 Controller & Doser | Royal Exclusiv Skimmer & Dreambox/Sump | ATI 8x54 Sunpower T5 | Ozotech Ozone Generator

Last edited by ReefKeeper64; 12/05/2017 at 02:14 PM.
ReefKeeper64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/06/2017, 01:27 PM   #21
slief
RC Sponsor

 
slief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,173
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefKeeper64 View Post
Hey Slief, Thanks for these links. This is most helpful. I checked and the pump heads support LS17 (1/4" inner diameter) tubing. They also support the slightly larger LS18 (5/16" inner diameter) tubing.
Should I consider the LS18 tubing since this is for water changes? I figure the fewer RPMs needed, the better. Perhaps 17 just works better for water changes with regards to vacuum or something along those lines?


If it supports LS18 tubing than why not. You will run the motor at lower RPM's or for less time which is always a good thing. You will just need to look on the US Plastics site for the correct barbed fittings. You could still pair it with the 1/4" RODI tubing though.


__________________
Director Customer Support Royal Exclusiv USA
For All Royal Exclusiv & Bubble King questions please refer to our Sponsor forum: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/fo...play.php?f=745

Current Tank Info: 480G display mixed reef, 90G sump, 90G refugium, 60G display refugium. Check out my build thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1783476
slief is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12/06/2017, 06:30 PM   #22
ReefKeeper64
Wanna be a reefkeeper
 
ReefKeeper64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Tampa
Posts: 1,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by slief View Post
If it supports LS18 tubing than why not. You will run the motor at lower RPM's or for less time which is always a good thing. You will just need to look on the US Plastics site for the correct barbed fittings. You could still pair it with the 1/4" RODI tubing though.
Perfect! This will help me to start my own automated water changes. So Us plastics it is and I’ll be sure to include the fittings to pair the LS18 tubing with 1/4” rodi tubing. Thank you!


__________________
Reef Savvy 110g Tank | GHL Profilux 4 Controller & Doser | Royal Exclusiv Skimmer & Dreambox/Sump | ATI 8x54 Sunpower T5 | Ozotech Ozone Generator
ReefKeeper64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2024 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2022
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.