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11/09/2017, 12:29 PM | #1 |
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does heavy skimming remove PO4 and/or NO3?
as the title says, will skimming cause a drop in P04 and/or NO3. for example, i have high NO3 but .04-.06 PO4 (which is think is a good level for mixed reef) and wondered if skimming more reduce NO but no PO?
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11/09/2017, 12:50 PM | #2 |
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does heavy skimming remove PO4 and/or NO3?
i think the answer is no but i'll wait and see what others say
Last edited by Optionman; 11/09/2017 at 03:52 PM. |
11/09/2017, 12:59 PM | #3 |
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The short answer is no.
The long answer is noooooo. They remove dissolved organics, like fish poop. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-0...ture/index.htm
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Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels |
11/09/2017, 01:11 PM | #4 |
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Skimming does not remove PO4 or NO3 directly; but, does remove organics which might otherwise decay in the tank adding inorganic N and P as a result.
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Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals. |
11/09/2017, 02:59 PM | #5 | |
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Skimming will never reduce your current nitrate or phosphate levels.. But it can keep them from going higher...
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11/09/2017, 04:08 PM | #6 |
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Dissolved nutrients generally can't be removed by skimming. Phosphate can be removed only at an interesting rate if it's still attached to an organic. Of course, any skimmer will remove a bit of the water column, which amounts to an incredibly tiny water change.
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11/09/2017, 08:54 PM | #7 |
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I do believe the skimmer will remove phosphate and nitrate but not directly. People that carbon dose do indeed see increased skimmate production and it's thought that the bacteria which are feeding off the phosphate and nitrate are a part of the skimmate that you collect.
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11/09/2017, 09:58 PM | #8 |
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The bacteria are organic and consume dissolved Nand P and do seem to be caught in the air/water space between the skimmer bubbles and most amphipathic organics are.
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Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals. |
11/10/2017, 04:01 AM | #9 |
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I can detect phosphate, ammonia and nitrate in the skimmate. The nitrate level in the skimmate seems to be correlated to the amount in the aquarium water. I assume this means it is not concentrated but carried over. Recently, I measured ammonia between 0.5-8 ppm in foamate. Concentrating ammonia might happen through the skimming of a large organic acid salt of ammonia, though I have not investigated why an ammonium salt would exist in a sea of sodium ions. Another explanation is that the salicylate test is detecting an organic amine. Skimming also captures microalgae (skimmate fluoresces under long wavelngth UV) and bacteria. Maybe test conditions break open the cells, releasing ammonia. Since fresh skimmate also shows ammonia, it is probably not due to bacteria metabolism after the skimmate is collected though I am still not a 100% convinced. Phosphate is detected in the 0.2-2 ppm range and might be concentrated with a large basic organic molecule or comes over in the shells of phytoplankton. Support for the latter notion is that acidifying the solid in the skimmate with dilute HCl for five minutes generated twice the amount of dissolved phosphate than in the liquid. Also, the phosphate test conditions might be acidic enough to dissolve some of this solid, giving the illusion of dissolved phosphate. Overall, a skimmer removes nitrogen and phosphorous in amounts that are useful but not substantial. Given the volume of skimmate my skimmer collects per day, phosphate is reduced in the aquarium by 0.001 ppm per day.
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11/10/2017, 10:36 AM | #10 |
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The water a protein skimmer pushes to the cup will pass along some small amounts of dissolved nutrients like a very small water change will as Jon noted.
The rising flow action in the skimmer will also push along bits of this and that algae detritus bacteria etc. However, the foam fractionation function( the actual "skimming") relies on the attraction of organic molecules to water and their repulsion from it. Amphipathic molecules like proteins and others with bi-polarity are pulled toward the water on one side and repelled by it on the other. These ampipathic molecules are most susceptible to removal via skimming as they get cling to the air and water surface there at the same time and get trapped between the bubbles.
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Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals. Last edited by tmz; 11/16/2017 at 10:32 AM. |
11/10/2017, 03:29 PM | #11 |
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11/10/2017, 04:37 PM | #12 |
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11/10/2017, 05:05 PM | #13 | |
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11/10/2017, 07:41 PM | #14 | |
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PS. I jumped in to soon as I see that the answer for bacteria was already covered.
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Laissez les bons temps rouler, Patrick Castille Current Tank Info: 10,000G. Greenhouse Macro Growout Last edited by Subsea; 11/10/2017 at 07:47 PM. |
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11/10/2017, 07:52 PM | #15 | |
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Why do you ask about the ratio of nitrate to phosphate? What do you call high nitrate?
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11/11/2017, 09:39 AM | #16 |
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Very small particles like bacteria and phytoplankton are not pushed along but rather experience similar forces as molecules that adhere to the water air interface.
Why do you exclude upward flow as a force moving organics and small particulate matter upward. Upwelling is a part of how reefs work. Amphipathic and hydrophobic planktonic microrganisms and particulate matter are attracted to the air water interfaces but that does not exclude the effect of upward flow on them.
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Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals. |
11/11/2017, 06:47 PM | #17 | |
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In the case of a skimmer, the upwelling is not water but air in the form of tiny bubbles. Aquarium water mixes with the bubbles and rises with the air into the skimmer throat. It is still just aquarium water mixed with air. Nothing additional has been swept along because there is nothing additional brought along but the material in the aquarium water. So very wet skimming is barely different from a water water change. The upward movement of water in the skimmer, the water entrained in the foam, is doing nothing to change the material concentration as it moves higher up in the skimmer column or skimmer thoat. The concentration of material we observe in skimmate is a result of the bubble breakage and the concentrated material reentering the water in the foam and re-attaching to bubbles, strengthening them which results in them lasting longer and eventually leaving the skimmer throat top. In addition, the water entrained in the foam drains away in the skimmer throat, also giving a dryer, more concentrated foam. Upward flow by itself is not part of the foam fractionation mechanism of concentration of molecules and particulates. |
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11/13/2017, 01:43 PM | #18 |
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The upwelling is water moving with the bubbles . Most skimmers create a significant upward flow . Reef's move water upward via advective flow.
The differentiation between upward flow and foam fractionation was clear in my earlier post. Nonetheless ,a"bit" of unbound material will move in an upward flow and some of that ,probably a small amount will settle in the skimmate, in my view. This from Randy's article previously cited explains it better: [B]"...The froth of bubbles begins to drain under gravity, removing much of the water between the bubbles. Some of the bubbles merge into larger bubbles. As long as the bubbles do not pop before significant draining occurs, then the organics will be left behind in the foam, along with some residual water. Eventually, the concentration of organics on the top of the foam becomes great enough that they exceed the solubility limit, and small particulates of organics form. These particulates are generally what a skimmer collects, along with some water and organics that remain present in solution or at the air/water interface...."[B] So, I don't think all of the material in the skimmate results from molecular attachment at the air water interface ; some albiet arguably a very small amount can be pushed along with the water .
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Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals. Last edited by tmz; 11/13/2017 at 01:50 PM. |
11/14/2017, 12:51 AM | #19 |
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After adding nori or ground shellfish to my tank, I definitely see it start to rise out of the collection cup on my recirc skimmer. I’d argue that the upflow of bubbles as well as solubilty characteristics of the bubble interface both aid in this effect. Watching the top of the skimmer bubbles closely, in certain cases I have seen the organics dancing across the bubble surface and precipitate! Surely a better name for protein skimmers would be surfactant skimmer
Carbon dosing definetly sequesters no3 and po4 into skimmable microorganisms. Skimming cannot remove appreciable amounts of inorganic nutrients like no3 or po4, but is excellent at removing organic nutrients as they contain surfactant like qualities. Microorganisms are covered in negative surfactants. If the quantity of surfactants drops below a critical concentration, the foam level falls. Measuring nitrate or phosphate in skimmate is likely useless. Microorganisms are both growing and dying/lysing in the skimmate shuffling nutrients between organic and inorganic states.
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Acros, Zoas, Lps and Acros Kevin Current Tank Info: 200 gallon sps Last edited by orcafood; 11/14/2017 at 01:13 AM. |
11/14/2017, 10:59 AM | #20 |
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That's how I view it : nicely stated. I've also seen "bits of this and that " in skimmate cup and the skimmer water column.
Decaying organics there will release nutrients and other elements; some consumption might also occur;measurements likely chart a false trail
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Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals. |
11/14/2017, 05:08 PM | #21 | |
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11/15/2017, 10:11 AM | #22 |
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Ehtereal agumments and black holes aside, simply stated flowing water moves material on earth;skimmer's create significant upward flow; whether or not the movement of a particular particle is aided by foam fractionation depends on the amphipathic qaulity of the particle.
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Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals. |
11/15/2017, 04:50 PM | #23 | |
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11/15/2017, 11:44 PM | #24 | |
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If there is no gravity, bubbles would not rise. I would guess a skimmer in outer space would not work. Heck holding water in a cup in outer space wouldn't work.
On a scientific note, if I put my face above my skimmer collection cup, I can feel air flowing out at a very appreciable rate. Quote:
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Acros, Zoas, Lps and Acros Kevin Current Tank Info: 200 gallon sps |
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11/16/2017, 10:30 AM | #25 | |
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The water a protein skimmer pushes to the cup will pass along some small amounts of dissolved nutrients like a very small water change will as Jon noted. The rising flow action in the skimmer will also push along bits of this and that algae detritus bacteria etc. However, the foam fractionation function( the actual "skimming") relies on the attraction of organic molecules to water and their repulsion from it. Amphipathic molecules like proteins and others with bi-polarity are pulled toward the water on one side and repelled by it on the other. These ampipathic molecules are most susceptible to removal via skimming as they get cling to the air and water surface there at the same time and get trapped between the bubbles. I have no idea why you chose to contradict it in absolute terms. The movement of particulate matter via flow is relevant to the OPs question about nutrient removal and a part ,albeit perhaps a small one, of the way skimmers operate. Some of the bits of material moved along by the flow to the cup would otherwise decay or dissolve in the tank and do also account for some of the content of the skimmate.
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Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals. Last edited by tmz; 11/16/2017 at 10:38 AM. |
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