Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Reef Discussion
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 08/31/2017, 11:44 PM   #76
Louis Z
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Montgomery,TX.
Posts: 1,035
also had read that the sponges were phosphate sinks


Louis Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 12:28 PM   #77
Steve Tyree
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 171
Dont add silica myself, but will be experimenting with it in the future. My systems right now have the lowest filtration power foot print of any system. That has been my main research focus point. Lowest operating cost filtration. The bare essential reef basically. Barebones structure. My hunch is we have a difficult future ahead of us on this planet, unfortunately. Relates to Einsteins remark about he does not know how ww3 will be fought, but he knew how ww4 would be fought.

Now concerning sponges, the sponge is the first multicellular organisms on the planet. So obviously it's main job was to filter the single cells from day one. But every learned trick, symbiosis, association, etc., that you find in animals can also be found in sponges. So there is no unifying sponge declarations or theories. Many have a symbiosis with cyanobacteria. Those are not cryptic cave sponges, but semi cryptic and semi exposed sponges. Some even have an algal symbiosis (exposed sponges). And many have no photo synthetic symbionts (cave sponges) All have bacterial symbionts living inside their tissue. Environmental parameters that affect the coral symbiosis (bleaching) also can affect sponge symbionts.


Steve Tyree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 12:52 PM   #78
Louis Z
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Montgomery,TX.
Posts: 1,035
Well when you said bacteria. it made me rember more I think the research stated that the bacteria with th sponges were processing phosphates out of the water and condensing it in to hard waste. i will see if i can find it .


Louis Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 04:40 PM   #79
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,830
What is "hard waste" for a sponge?


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 07:49 PM   #80
Louis Z
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Montgomery,TX.
Posts: 1,035
I mean they produce it as a solid. http://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4381.full and https://www.newscientist.com/article...ge-microbiome/ This is what I remember reading


Louis Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 07:57 PM   #81
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,830
so phosphate sequestration as granules in their tissues.. ok
algae does the same by growing biomass


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/01/2017, 10:58 PM   #82
BFG
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 715
Quote:
Originally Posted by aslavatortin View Post
Tagging along, I tried this with a Fluval 404 with all media removed and the flow dialed back. Within a few weeks all the baskets and the filter pad trays were covered in tube worms and sponges. It was pretty neat, but then the Fluval died.
This might be a simple addition to an already established setup . Where does the canister filter positioned , before the skimmer or after ?


__________________
If you've learnt, teach.
If you have, give.
BFG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/02/2017, 01:27 AM   #83
Louis Z
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Montgomery,TX.
Posts: 1,035
BFG I cant speak for aslavatortin . but I think you want it before the skimmer since the skimmer would be removing the food that the sponges would need. thats my .02 c. if you look at his profile he hasnt logged on since 2009. but i could be wrong. one of the things that steve ( i am not trying to speak for steve ) wrote in his books was that the sponges might foul with large particulate matter and be best in low flow areas. thats what I remember from reading his books many years ago. I think the 404 has a large flow so a conundrum. Many types of sponges so many possibilities. you will probably have to experiment . I do believe in the different zones to be necessary yet may not be practical to have in the small footprints that we have in our homes. One of the things that comes to mind is Koi filtration. to have clear water you need large settling pond to pump up to a planted section to absorb nutrients which end up needing a large surface area to filter the pond.


Louis Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/02/2017, 06:42 AM   #84
dartier
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Brampton, ON, Canada
Posts: 964
I have a 30 gallon barrel beside my frag tank holding all the rocks that I could not fit in the frag tank or sump from when I broke down my DT a few years back. The flow is slow through it (water pumped to bottom of barrel, and exists through an overflow in side back to sump), and the rocks are covered in all colours of pineapple sponges.

Dennis


__________________
560G Miracles tank in process
making a DIY DyMiCo style filter (for 560G)

Current Tank Info: 560G Miracles tank in progress, 80Frag Temporary
dartier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/02/2017, 09:58 AM   #85
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,830
Unless I misunderstood: A skimmer is the opposite philosophy to the cryptic sponge approach. You want DOC to feed the sponge cycle.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/02/2017, 01:25 PM   #86
Louis Z
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Montgomery,TX.
Posts: 1,035
I did run a HOB aquamaxx skimmer 24/7 on a 20 and still had sponge gowth so I would say that a slightly less efficient skimmer could be employed or maybe on /off periods employed. leng sy had a recommendation like that


Louis Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/02/2017, 02:35 PM   #87
BFG
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 715
Thanks Louis Z ! I understand the low flow requirement . I do have the Eheim Classic XL canister filter and was wondering whether it is a good choice for this venturč . I could remove the pump and go with a lower flow rate pump . My only hurdle is whether to plumb this canister filter connected from the display tank drain pipe or just placed it in the sump with a lower flow rate pump attached , pulling water coming from the display tank drain .

Since i just found this thread and did not have the book , does the sponge prefer nutrient rich water or bacteria laden water ?


__________________
If you've learnt, teach.
If you have, give.
BFG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/02/2017, 03:55 PM   #88
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,830
Quote:
Originally Posted by BFG View Post
does the sponge prefer nutrient rich water or bacteria laden water ?
yes. If by nutrient you mean organics.


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/03/2017, 02:30 PM   #89
Steve Tyree
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 171
That was a lot of replies. Basically we have to bring in the zonal aspects of the filtration system. If you want to target POM particulate matter you need a stronger flow to suspend the larger particles. These are bigger than dissolved organics or bacteria. You will have a lot of feather dusters develop in there. There are sponges better suited for that zone, but the cryptic cave sponges prefer weak currents and only tolerate very fine sized particulates. That cryptic zone is where cave sponges can thrive. So a true cryptic zone could be after skimmer and a filter feeder zone (semi cryptic or semi exposed) before skimmer. Assuming you are overflowing with no micron bag. If you run overflow threw a micron bag, you could put cryptic zone in front of skimmer.


Steve Tyree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/03/2017, 06:57 PM   #90
Louis Z
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Montgomery,TX.
Posts: 1,035
BFG , if its the smaller two versions it might be Ok . Although those pumps require gravity feed to fill the canister. at sump level on the ground will not be able to fill the canister completely. trying to run another pump through that is beyond me. I never tried that. what everyone else is recommending a seperate tub to pump water in and let it flow back to sump by gravity. that can be done if you have the space. i have seen those systems where reefers have a back room that everything pumps to ,


Louis Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/06/2017, 07:57 AM   #91
BFG
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 715
Oh no , I'm not gonna run another pump while using the canister filter own pump . I would remove the canister filter impeller itself and then add a low flow pump but this is for the Eheim Classic XL canister filter . But if Louis Z is recommending the 2 smaller Eheim Classic filter , I can go with that too .

Now the question is , is either the 2 smaller Eheim Classic canister filter enough for a 120 gallon tank ? I have all 5 of the Eheim Classic canister filter from the small to the bucket sized .


__________________
If you've learnt, teach.
If you have, give.
BFG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/06/2017, 09:14 AM   #92
Steve Tyree
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 171
Sizing the crypto habitat depends on two basic things. The size of the biomass in the exposed zone (lighted reef) and how much of its filtration needs the crypto habitat will be performing. Basic rule of thumb for 100 % crypto filtration is crypto biomass equals exposed biomass. They have found this to be true in nature and in many areas the crypto biomass was found to exceed exposed biomass.


Steve Tyree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/06/2017, 01:09 PM   #93
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,830
Does it matter if the flow is intermittently high?

So low flow for 6 hours then flushed out for 15 minutes then low flow again...


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/07/2017, 11:58 PM   #94
Louis Z
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Montgomery,TX.
Posts: 1,035
I was thinking the larger canister produces more flow but it also has advantage of more volume to grow more sponges. I too have different eheim sizes . The smaller ones really don't have that much output . That is why I thought smaller would be the way to go. But if you can use larger canister and drop the flow rate , that's worth trying . I have to admit I am not expert but just thinking out loud . Your trial and effort will be the best evidence of whether to go this route or not.


Louis Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/08/2017, 03:00 AM   #95
BFG
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 715
I have not started my tank built yet . Previously was using a 120 gallon in 2006 but somehow 2 years ago , whatever livestock I add did not make it so for the new build , I will be using more equipment such as the Eheim XL Classic canister filter as a remote filtration with Sera ceramic ring stacked vertically plus 2 of the Marinepure ceramic block . These 2 ceramic media fit nicely in a single Eheim XL Canister filter . I would be using a sump too but the output from the skimmer is directed into this XL canister filter and then to the display tank . At least this is the theory , but after reading this thread , I would not be surprised the sponge growth might be concentrated in this XL canister filter .


__________________
If you've learnt, teach.
If you have, give.
BFG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/08/2017, 03:32 AM   #96
BFG
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 715
The problem with using this single large canister filter is that as it is filled , it would be very heavy so I do not intend to open this canister filter on a regular basis . Also , even if I need to open it after it has started operating , I might face an issue of creating a siphon for the hose from the sump to the canister filter . I may or may not direct the xl canister filter output to the display tank as I have 2 things to worry about , chilled saltwater and stagnant area in the xl canister filter .

If there is an event that start a die off occuring in the xl canister filter , maybe due to an accumulation of stuff , it would affect the whole system . For safety , I want to direct the output of the xl canister filter into a compartment in the sump , just to agitate the water to add 02 in it , just in case there is a build up of co2 or other nasty stuff , which may lower the ph if it does happen .

Anyway , this thread has opened my eyes to what I may anticipate to happen in the xl canister filter . Thank you guys for sharing your find , it has been helpful !


__________________
If you've learnt, teach.
If you have, give.
BFG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/08/2017, 09:23 AM   #97
Steve Tyree
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 171
The animals will of course grow into their environment. If the flow is normally slow and suddenly strong, it could occasionally cause some damage. In weak currents the organisms can grow into very delicate forms.


Steve Tyree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/08/2017, 11:18 AM   #98
karimwassef
Registered Member
 
karimwassef's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,830
So the surges would "toughen" them up but not stop their ability to grow?


__________________
Failure isn't an option It's a requirement. 660g 380inwall+280smp/surge S/L/Soft/Maxima/RBTA/Clown/Chromis/Anthias/Tang/Mandarin/Jawfish/Goby/Wrasse/D'back. DIY 12' Skimmer ActuatedSurge ConcreteScape
karimwassef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/08/2017, 06:03 PM   #99
Louis Z
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Montgomery,TX.
Posts: 1,035
thinking out loud again. using the cannister filter and those sera ceramic rings . might be an issue. for when you do move the cannister, all of its contents will shift. That shift and jostling might do temporary damage to the sponges. and yes those cannisters can be a problem if power shuts off for a while and then restarts. I dont know how well sponges survive in low oxygen environments


Louis Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09/10/2017, 08:49 AM   #100
Timfish
Registered Member
 
Timfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,497
Louis Z, thanks for the links!

As far as determining flow de Goeij measured flow through cavites and residence times averaged around 4 minutes. It seems easy to use a powdered calcium supplement to time the flow. Personanally I don't think it matters too much, like Steve said as long as flow's not disrupting the growth.

I think what's missing in this discussion about nutrient removal is cryptic sponges are sloughing off cells are an incredably fast rate converting dissolved organic matter into particulate detritus. De Goeij (2013) using ¹³C showed this cellular detritus starts showing up in in filter feeders within hours. His research (de Goeij 2008, ch 6 & 7) showed a net conversion of 39% and 27% from organic into inorganic N and P was observed.


__________________
"Our crystal clear aquaria come nowhere close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs" Charles Delbeek
Timfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:16 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2014