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Old 09/19/2017, 08:28 PM   #126
karimwassef
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well.. my fish are greedy.. they eat anything vegetable based...






















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Old 09/20/2017, 08:54 AM   #127
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I've seen distictions made between "Turf", "Macro" and "Folacious" algae but like Steve said they are vague terms. I saw a presentaiton a couple years ago by Dr. Haas who's looked very closely at the relationship between algae, microbes and DOC and he had a chart of the DOC production of 6 or 7 algae genus. What we call "hair" algae was at top with huge DOC output compared to Halimeda spp and chaetomorpha spp. which was at the bottom. (I haven't found it online but it might be this paper I haven't bought yet.) One of the contradictions his research team found was on reefs completly over run by algae DOC levels were far below helathy reefs and in some samples was undetectable. Dr. Haas discusses how algae promotes heterotrophic microbial growth in this Science Direct article Looking at Dr. Haas research (and Dr. Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas") along side Steve's and Dr. de Goeij's it easy to see just how critical cryptic sponges are in maintaining beneficial microbial populations in our systems along with healthy DOC types/species and levels.

Looking at Karim's feeding and maintnenance regime it's seems to me to correlate to what happens on reefs. Algae grows and releases DOC that promotes heterotrophic microbes. Herbivores eat the algae that Karim has harvested. The fish release ammonia, urea (and amino acids?) and phosphate into the water. Corals compete with the algae by soaking up and ingesting the ammonia, urea and any amino acids and phosphate to feed their symbiotic algae. Corals release DOC that promotes autotrophic microbes. Cryptic sponges remove DOC released by the algae and sponges and remove both heterotrophic and autotrophic bacteria that's feeding on the DOC. Sponges convert the DOC into nutrient rich detritus that feeds the filter feeders in the system (and releases small amount of inorganic nitrogen and PO4). Since there is a net increase in the coral biomass versus the algae biomass the microbial populations shift towards autotrophic types. And instead of tides and currents to help keep refractory DOC at acceptable levels water changes remove the refractory DOC that builds up over time.


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Old 09/20/2017, 10:22 AM   #128
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I would add one more variable... aeration.

I don't protein skim, but I inject gallons of fresh air with a dual penductor high pressure pump. It must be fresh air with a very stable O2 to CO2 ratio. Without it, bad things happen in my system. That's partly due to Alk and pH stability, but it also creates a pressure gradient to inject O2 AND CO2.

The AND is capitalized because my algae consume CO2 at an outstanding rate. The biomass can push my pH from 8.1 to 8.4 in a few hours through photosynthesis. I need an infusion of CO2 ... and that actually lowers my pH.

Likewise, the aeration injects O2. And while most believe that we have no issues with oxygen in our waters, I would conclude that there are always pockets of low oxygenation, especially with low flow regions. Achieving high oxygenation at low flow is important in my view.

Finally, the aeration coalesces the DOC and bacteria into larger clumps that get fed back into my DT. If you watch my videos, it sometimes looks like a sand storm... but the corals are constantly feeding.

I don't know how violent aeration plays into the microbial landscape- but it has been key to my success.






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Old 09/21/2017, 04:30 PM   #129
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Ok. This may not be the best forum for this question but with such a smart and educated audience, I thought I'd ask.

I have a unique kind of bacteria in my tank that forms a thick base under a hairy fuzzy growth. It's black in color. It doesn't spread through the water very effectively. Instead, it encrusts sideways on the rock. It holds up to EXTREME flow and grows under direct light. It looks like mold but microscopic investigation confirmed that its bacteria holding on to bacteria. It actually looks to be several microbial organisms including cyano whose mucus seems to play a role in the base's adhesion to rock. We have photo and video surveillance of the pest: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...567904&page=23

I've been researching bacteria-eaters trying to handicap this growth (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/eb/index.htm).

I've used chemiclean to break it up but it returns. I know that the sponges in my tank are good bacteria consumers but they can't go on the offensive against this encrusting offender.. can they?

I've thought of pulling out little pieces of sponge and blending them to "inoculate" the reef hoping to get them closer to the problem. But they'll come back in the cryptic shadows instead of the brightly lit high flow zone of this pest.

Note that my corals are still growing very fast and my tank is very healthy with no algae except in the fuge. But this growth actually pushes against the coral growth plate wherever they meet. Some coral even grows fast enough to go up and around it, but what a waste of energy.

It doesn't kill my coral, but it fights it. No fish or snails eat it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason2459 View Post
And the vids. Will work on getting all the vids up to my youtube too.

Black_Mat_Sample01_01 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_010 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_011 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_012 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_02 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_03 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_04 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_05 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_07 by Jason, on Flickr

Black_Mat_Sample01_08 by Jason, on Flickr
Ideas?


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Old 09/27/2017, 09:59 AM   #130
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Sorry, I don't have any real good idea. But what gets me thinking is after reading Haas' stuff on macro algae promoting various heterotrophic microbial life and the fact we cannot stock all the various types of herbivores that are found on reefs is there some imbalance or missing species? What happens over say 6 months if you keep your macro algae at a half or third of what you historicely have had it at? Are there small herbivores like small shails or hermit crabs or nudibranchs that will eat it or disturb it so it isn't as prevelant?


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Old 09/27/2017, 01:36 PM   #131
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No one eats it.
I don't have macroalgae, just turf (hair) in my scrubber and inaccessible parts in the DT
Where there is turf, there is no bacteria.


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Old 09/27/2017, 06:18 PM   #132
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Karim,

Yes. Possibly they are eating it for potassium. Banana are a potassium rich food.


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Old 09/27/2017, 06:50 PM   #133
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Are fish smart enough to like a food for the K? I would have assumed they just think it tastes good. :-)


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Old 09/27/2017, 09:17 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by karimwassef View Post
No one eats it.
I don't have macroalgae, just turf (hair) in my scrubber and inaccessible parts in the DT
Where there is turf, there is no bacteria.
It's impossible to say if the DOC released by turf algae promotes the black mix of cyano and algae and other organisms but turf algae is releasing DOC that promotes heterotrophic bacteria. It may not be as much as what hair algae does but it is promoting bacteria.


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Old 09/27/2017, 11:18 PM   #135
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I'm ok with bacteria in general...

This particular combo of bacteria is the only thing bugging me. The fact that it's not free floating, can form a solid mat base and has long black hair makes it different from anything else I've seen. I wish there was an encrusting sponge that would counteract it.


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Old 09/28/2017, 12:20 PM   #136
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Sat,

How did you feel after you ate a whole big bag of Frito's. Probably not doing that too often anymore. All they know is they fell better and are stronger. They dont know aout the potassium. Lol.

Just getting over flu, will comment on other thread points tonight.


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Old 09/28/2017, 01:34 PM   #137
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Not sure that fish can taste? No idea.
Organisms don't consciously know why their brains gravitate to certain foods, but their bodies do. At least that's the theory- here's an article on animals eating dirt to access minerals in it: https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...t-eating-soil/


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Old 09/28/2017, 05:42 PM   #138
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Karim,

Good post. Myself. My body feels good after eating fish. Bad after eating a big bag of Fritos. So I eat more fish then Fritos lol.

Gonna try to post an image of one of the figures in my CMAT Volume 2 book. Shows the basic exchanges going on in the Sponge Loop. Now this is a cheesy camera pic of the figure printed out and hanging on my wall. Best I can do right now.




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Old 09/28/2017, 06:00 PM   #139
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Thanks. So corals uptake dissolved inorganic N and P?
I would expect that this is very small?


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Old 09/28/2017, 11:11 PM   #140
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Thanks. So corals uptake dissolved inorganic N and P?
I would expect that this is very small?

Yes they do, actually pretty significant. A few scientific papers have been published regarding it.


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Old 09/28/2017, 11:17 PM   #141
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Here is one, they used ammonium directly to feed to coral.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1506658656.723071.jpg


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Old 09/28/2017, 11:20 PM   #142
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One more
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Old 09/29/2017, 08:05 AM   #143
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Ok. So this needs to align with the very low measured inorganics in real reefs. That means that it's about balance.

I have no measurable inorganics in my reef, but my corals grow well. But that doesn't imply that there are no inorganics being produced.... it just means that the uptake = generation so that the net remaining at any point is sub-measurement.

I'm a heavy feeder and rely on my algae to ensure that any excess inorganics generated are consumed. It looks like sponges can basically buffer this food cycle, allowing more food to be recycled.

Will need to use Steve's chart and add algae to see the triangle of food and waste interaction. The algae likewise consume inorganics and generate food in the form of biofauna and bacteria. I see the algae as the biomass "sink" sequestering excess until consumed for recycling my fish and inverts....

That means that it's a four sided food web with coral, sponges, algae and fish/inverts. What a tangled web she weaves..


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Old 09/29/2017, 08:21 AM   #144
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Yes indeed.


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Old 09/29/2017, 08:23 AM   #145
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Also the reef is filled with live organic nutrients that can not be measured by test kits available to hobbyists.



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Old 09/29/2017, 10:49 AM   #146
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Yes. That's what I consider the primary food for coral.


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Old 09/29/2017, 01:02 PM   #147
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Bugs Rule

Quote:
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Ok. So this needs to align with the very low measured inorganics in real reefs. That means that it's about balance.

I have no measurable inorganics in my reef, but my corals grow well. But that doesn't imply that there are no inorganics being produced.... it just means that the uptake = generation so that the net remaining at any point is sub-measurement.

I'm a heavy feeder and rely on my algae to ensure that any excess inorganics generated are consumed. It looks like sponges can basically buffer this food cycle, allowing more food to be recycled.

Will need to use Steve's chart and add algae to see the triangle of food and waste interaction. The algae likewise consume inorganics and generate food in the form of biofauna and bacteria. I see the algae as the biomass "sink" sequestering excess until consumed for recycling my fish and inverts....

That means that it's a four sided food web with coral, sponges, algae and fish/inverts. What a tangled web she weaves..

I just found this thread a few days ago. Lasty night, I purchased both of Steve's ebooks on sponges. I like it when the nutrient sink is something desirable like pods, macro, sponges, corals and fish. The plan is to change a ten year old mud/macro refugium into a cryptic zone. With lights out on the refugium, I can grow sponges, pods, and numerous filter feeders. The beauty of this system is that the nutrient sink is desirable: sponges, pods, filter feeders of all kinds, coral, and fish. On my sumpless macro lagoon tanks, I will stick with GAC.

While I suspect most of the readers of this thread are aware of this but I will repeat. Ken Felderman has done much research on the bacteria community in reef tanks during extensive testing on carbon dosing in our reef tanks.

His data showed that protein skimmers removed at best 30%-40% of DOC. GAC removed 50%-60% and the mature reef tank inhabitants processed >75% into their biomass. Pretty good substantiation with peer reviewed research papers.

Glad to be tagging along.


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Old 09/29/2017, 01:26 PM   #148
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How did you feel after you ate a whole big bag of Frito's. Probably not doing that too often anymore. All they know is they fell better and are stronger. They dont know aout the potassium. Lol.
Steve,

My stomach lost its ability to process large quantities of Fritos a long time ago. And yes, I learned from the experience. However, after poking around, I now believe marine fish get all the potassium they need by direct absorbtion from the water (380ppm).


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Old 09/29/2017, 02:58 PM   #149
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I still think cryptic is not in balance alone. Algae plays an important role in its rate of nutrient sequestration.

Nature is diverse because each contributor fits a need that they do best. It's not to dimish the benefits of a cryptic zone, but to enhance it.

It's like playing soccer (futball for outside the US) and only having a team of defense and a goalie... sure.. you can do it. But nature is playing with a full deck.


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Old 09/29/2017, 03:38 PM   #150
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I still think cryptic is not in balance alone. Algae plays an important role in its rate of nutrient sequestration.

Nature is diverse because each contributor fits a need that they do best. It's not to dimish the benefits of a cryptic zone, but to enhance it.

It's like playing soccer (futball for outside the US) and only having a team of defense and a goalie... sure.. you can do it. But nature is playing with a full deck.

Very well said.
I have both crytic zones and refugium. I also run skimmer and GAC.


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