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Old 09/29/2017, 07:29 PM   #151
karimwassef
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No skimming or GAC for me - just nature.

But I will use a UV if things go wrong.


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Old 09/29/2017, 08:43 PM   #152
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Karim,

A friend of mine in the Philippines has been trying to get me to add the turf algal component to my system. He has also taken the cryptic zone and expanded out an extensive and unique filter feeder section. Apparently he is trying to patent his modification in the Phillipines. Living under martial law right now over there. But basically I think the reef has enough Algae already just within the corals. All the zooxanthellae algae. That's enough for the nutrient uptake we need, assuming you add no food. But turf algae will grow if you have light and lack herbivores. So I grow coralline algae to out compete the turf algae. There are reasons why you don't want a lot of turf or macro algae in your system. They tend to promote virulent bacteria. It is actually a aquarist health issue too, potentially. But I have fought too many fights in the past. So you guys will just have to fight that out amongst yourself. lol. My main concern is finding the base framework of a coral reef system.


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Old 09/29/2017, 08:55 PM   #153
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Subsea,

Sent you an email about the book link. That is interesting info on what the skimmers can remove. If they could remove 100 % they would stop foaming every now and then. But a well stocked reef tank can constantly produce skimmer foam. So that 40 to 50 % figure seems reasonable. Almost all the nutrients on an oceanic reef are bound up within the existing biomass. What is available in the water column is very minor compared to existing biomass. That is true of organic and inorganic. That is Darwin's Paradox. All that live living in a nutrient desert basically.


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Old 09/29/2017, 09:14 PM   #154
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ok

when I snorkel, I see zones of algae and then zones of coral. The high air exchange, shallow, warmer areas are dominated by algae.

Algae in coral tissues can't absorb massive nutrients like free algae can. The free algae is a sink because it can literally double in size in a week (in my tank, it can). It's a safety net like no other to remove excess nutrients that would otherwise kill a tank.

I use it because I feed excessively... There's no way to match the "food" content of the reef while maintaining a sub-measurement inorganic N & P content of the reef ... without algae.

With my scrubber, I feed

 photo 5909E4B4-8908-474A-955B-71EC0FAA7E2F_zpsvimisjjo.jpg

yes - 4 bananas today.

and my scrubber:

 photo BDAD2289-AB95-4DC5-A7CB-BF4214F0E450_zpsznspzsid.jpg

 photo 62AF83E1-FE30-48D0-9648-B0D556F15A77_zps8gmqd8ff.jpg

and my fish and corals eat constantly without N and P rising up from under the measurement thresholds..


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Old 09/29/2017, 09:35 PM   #155
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Are those eBay led flood lights?


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Old 09/29/2017, 09:43 PM   #156
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yup only 400W though


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Old 09/29/2017, 09:58 PM   #157
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400w led on a 150 or 300 gallon tub?


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Old 09/29/2017, 10:12 PM   #158
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Here is a good article
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1506741156.042524.jpg


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Old 09/29/2017, 10:13 PM   #159
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Full paper is here
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...4/#!po=14.7619


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Old 09/29/2017, 10:34 PM   #160
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300 gallon? It's 50 gallons.

And my DIY that was there before was 500W of LED... yes!

I grow pounds of algae


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Old 09/29/2017, 10:35 PM   #161
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Yes. I've read it! Good paper.


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Old 09/30/2017, 12:23 PM   #162
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That is great, I also put high power led on my refugium. I feed my fish the Marco algae from refugium.


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Old 09/30/2017, 12:48 PM   #163
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Yes. I feed the macro and turf + bananas and coral food...
I wonder if the sugar in my bananas intensifies the bacterial population and feeds my sponges better.

My corals eat the bananas directly. Once the little fine banana fuzz starts floating around, they extend their tentacles. Same response as when I add macro or turf.

 photo 4FF878A5-E780-4C66-A211-B742F2A708D5_zpskx84qv2e.jpg


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Old 09/30/2017, 12:52 PM   #164
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Beautiful meat coral. Yes coral can uptake sugar.


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Old 09/30/2017, 01:40 PM   #165
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Nature is Complex

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Originally Posted by Steve Tyree View Post
Subsea,

Sent you an email about the book link. That is interesting info on what the skimmers can remove. If they could remove 100 % they would stop foaming every now and then. But a well stocked reef tank can constantly produce skimmer foam. So that 40 to 50 % figure seems reasonable. Almost all the nutrients on an oceanic reef are bound up within the existing biomass. What is available in the water column is very minor compared to existing biomass. That is true of organic and inorganic. That is Darwin's Paradox. All that live living in a nutrient desert basically.
Most probably my computer ignorance of operating systems, but have not received ebooks yet.

The four point food web that Karim described is the complex chemistry micros biology and physics of our ecosystems. We put a man on the moon more than 50 years ago, yet we can not cure cancer.

When Ken Feldrman and other researches describes the "coral holibant", they view the eco system from a holistic point of view. On the reef their is "cross talk" between coral and cynobacteria. Randy Holmes Farley describes a autofeed back loop where cynobacteria process Calcium Phosphate on our rocks and absorb phosphate into their body mass.

I had a question about wheather crptic sponges would assist in keeping NPS.
I have a 30G mud macro refugium with an infestation of red planaria. In the past, whith lights out for three months they disappeared. In the past I have kept Sea Apples for two years and flame scallops alive for 18 months. It was my desire to emphasis filler feeders in the 75G Jaubert Plenum DT, especia NPS.


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Old 09/30/2017, 04:01 PM   #166
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Subsea,

Sent you a separate email couple days ago. You have to click on that link. Login and download.

NPS are the perfect filter feeder animals for the filter feeder zone. And that is where a lot of them are found. The transitional zone between light and dark zones. You need some type of photosynthetic animal to create the sugars DOC that are the primary food source for Darwin's Paradoxal Oceanic Reef system. Unless of course you just want to do a Cryptic or Twilight Zone.


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Old 09/30/2017, 04:08 PM   #167
Steve Tyree
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Karim,

Yes. Very possible sugar in banana is increasing the bacterial population. Or the organic matter coming off banana chunks is also promoting bacteria.


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Old 09/30/2017, 04:15 PM   #168
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Karim,

Oceanic reef waters are low in inorganic nutrients Nitrogen and Phosphate. The heavily filtered captive sps systems are now adding nitrogen and phosphate to promote growing coral. Those inorganic nutrients are taken up by the zooxanthellae.


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Old 09/30/2017, 04:51 PM   #169
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Quote:
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Full paper is here
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...4/#!po=14.7619


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Outstanding research paper. Finally, I have substantiation for adding vinegar as a carbon source to my sumpless/skimmerless display macro lagoon tanks.


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Old 09/30/2017, 05:14 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Tyree View Post
Karim,

Oceanic reef waters are low in inorganic nutrients Nitrogen and Phosphate. The heavily filtered captive sps systems are now adding nitrogen and phosphate to promote growing coral. Those inorganic nutrients are taken up by the zooxanthellae.
Yes! That's why I have no filtration at all anywhere. All open flow, no export, no media.


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Old 09/30/2017, 06:32 PM   #171
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I don't have filter either, I use pelletized activated carbon so that micro life forms can pass through without getting trap.


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Old 09/30/2017, 06:35 PM   #172
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A paper about sponge and marine P cycle:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4394276/
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1506814534.817437.jpg


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Old 09/30/2017, 06:42 PM   #173
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This is a review article that worth a read.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...66842X1500075X

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Old 09/30/2017, 08:34 PM   #174
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N2 gas is an export mechanism.

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Yes! That's why I have no filtration at all anywhere. All open flow, no export, no media.
Free nitrogren gas as produced by faculatier bacteria acting in a low oxygen enviroment. saturate the water with N2 which is removed at the surface where nitron gas has a two way process between the ocean and the athmospher. acting in dynamicic equilibrium.

I really liked your point about the air needing to be in the right ratios of oxygen, nitrogen and carbon dioxide, which is often not the case in our homes.


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Old 09/30/2017, 08:42 PM   #175
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Elagance in Nature

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Subsea,


NPS are the perfect filter feeder animals for the filter feeder zone. And that is where a lot of them are found. The transitional zone between light and dark zones. You need some type of photosynthetic animal to create the sugars DOC that are the primary food source for Darwin's Paradoxal Oceanic Reef system. Unless of course you just want to do a Cryptic or Twilight Zone.
Thank you for the vision to apply these techniqes that rely on differrent componants in our eco systerms to be balanced. At 45 years in the hobby, I still get excited as I explore the depth of how nature works in its minute details. It is truely elegant.

Thank you for this inspiration.


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