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Unread 03/23/2018, 10:30 PM   #3326
taricha
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for dinos specifically, the dilute bleach sterilization that I think I've read about for plants is likely your best chance to get the dinos killed off.


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Unread 03/24/2018, 12:05 AM   #3327
Michael Hoaster
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Right on, taricha. I'll use that for the grasses. I'm wondering what to dip the gorgonian in. Maybe a hydrogen peroxide solution? I should look in the corals forum.

I'm hoping to get the desirables holding tank set up this weekend.


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Unread 03/26/2018, 10:40 PM   #3328
Michael Hoaster
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I got the substrate, water and light going on the holding tank. Soon I'll be able to transfer grasses over. I put a nice layer of dirt on the bottom, sand and dirt mix next, and it's topped with a fine sand mix. After filling with water, there's a layer of detritus on top of the sand. It looks like a good place for seagrass to grow. Hope so!


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Unread 03/27/2018, 07:34 AM   #3329
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Step by step, a well thought out approach, and I believe that you will achieve your goal with your tank. This is exciting!

BTW, how are your fish doing?


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Unread 03/28/2018, 05:02 AM   #3330
Subsea
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I looked up Panacur. It is a pesticide/dewormer for dogs. Not likely to help with Dino’s.

Michael,
What are your thoughts on dilute bleach? Do you think that Sea Grasses are more resistant to bleach than Dino’s?

I have an issue with Halymenia digitata. When grown inside under moderate LED 12K lighting, this ornamental macro is gorgeous. When I bring it outside in a 150G glass tank using a tumble culture, I have an aggressive green macro that grows from the surface of dragon tongue leaves.

https://www.marineplantbook.com/mari...teromorpha.htm

At present, a 40W UV sterilizer is circulating this water at 300 GPHr to prevent spread of spores. Previous to adding salt in this tank, chlorine tablets bleached the tank and water. Aggressive air bubbles circulated chlorine out and salt was added. Two days later, Dragons Tongue was added. Macro grew very fast, more than doubling in one week. A few pieces of Dragons Tongue were noted to have trailing green threads. These were disposed of.

In the past, I tried using H202 to selectively kill undesirable from surfaces of desirable macro without much success. If you try bleach with success, share dilution ratio and soaking time.


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Unread 03/28/2018, 05:06 AM   #3331
Subsea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster View Post
Right on, taricha. I'll use that for the grasses. I'm wondering what to dip the gorgonian in. Maybe a hydrogen peroxide solution? I should look in the corals forum.

I'm hoping to get the desirables holding tank set up this weekend.
For your coral dip, use a ten percent solution of H202 for ten minutes. This will bleach your algae as well as collateral damage to pods and worms.


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Unread 03/28/2018, 11:29 AM   #3332
Michael Hoaster
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Subsea, I've found a 20-1 ratio of water to bleach to be the most prevalent method of cleaning plants of algae. I found no consensus on a soaking time. I think the grasses will hold up to this treatment.

Sorry to hear of your troubles with halymenia. The macro that you linked to is actually pretty cool. Ideally, you could separate them and culture both.

Thanks for the coral dip suggestion too!


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Unread 03/28/2018, 03:16 PM   #3333
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I have plenty of Entermorphy in another system. It is a cousin to Ulva. One of the ATS guys uses it on his scrubber.

I will try that 20:1 ratio for 2 minutes on select pieces of Halymenia. I will know within a day.


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Unread 03/28/2018, 04:05 PM   #3334
Michael Hoaster
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I look forward to hearing how it goes. I'm not sure it will work for Enteromorpha. I may be wrong but I think the bleach solution works for MICRO algae, not macro. I would think that if it works for Enteromorpha, it may also harm your Halymenia. But that species of halymenia is probably tougher than enteromorpha, so maybe there's a soak time that kills enteromorpha but not halymenia. Good luck!


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature. -Walter Adey

Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 03/29/2018, 11:02 AM   #3335
Subsea
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Using a 5% solution of bleach, I bathed Halymenia digitata with Enteromorphy attached for two minutes. The green chlorophyll starting bleaching from Enteromorphy within 15 seconds. Both are considered macro algae. It is my hope that the slippery slime coat on Halymenia will protect against bleach.

When inspecting tumble culture tank, all infestation of Enteromorphy were on old growth of Halymenia. This old growth was more brittle and most importantly, it did not have a slime coat. I am thinking that when I prune Halymenia for propagation, I should remove these old growths.

I will know more about survival rate of bleached Halymenia in 24 hours.


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Last edited by Subsea; 03/29/2018 at 11:46 AM.
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Unread 03/29/2018, 11:55 AM   #3336
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Two minute soak of 5% bleach solution killed both macros. After one hour, Bortacladia is losing red pigments and turning clear. I doubt that it will make it.

Enteromorphy is tough. In an outside growout system of three 150G Rubbermade tanks, which was shut down for > 4 years, the interconnecting pipes sprouted strings of Enteromorphy after being dry for that whole 4 year time period. It took 4 months of recirculating thru pipes to rejuvenate algae spores.


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Unread 03/29/2018, 12:53 PM   #3337
Michael Hoaster
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I've got some tough macro turfs I want to remove, when I drain the tank. I'll be using a stronger solution at that point. It will be a great chance to get rid of stuff I don't want, and make room for stuff I do. I get excited at the prospect of diving into this project, but there's a lot of other life I have to do too, so I sneak it in here and there. It goes slower than I'd like, but there's no rush.

Right now I'm getting the salinity in the QT and holding tank dialed. The QT will get a half-way-to-hypo level and the HT will get 25ppt. The QT has some mollies in it, to help cycle, eat algae and make babies. I've said it before…mollies have tremendous utility for marine aquariums!

I'm considering lowering the mini strombus snails' population. I love that they can climb the thin grasses but I hate that sometimes they eat new macros. With a good population of cerith snails already, I think I may try it. I doubt I could eradicate them if I wanted to, but lowering their numbers could help.

I'm liking the larger QT tank. I think its a 40 tall, definitely not a breeder. I think this will be key for low-stress, multi-fish acclimation. Lots of pipes on the wall and floor, to hide in. I've ordered some netting to make tops for the QT and display as well.

Remember, the new tank will not be Caribbean-specific. It's been fun opening up my fish-shopping options!


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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 03/30/2018, 06:01 AM   #3338
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It sounds like a good plan to me! How is the root repair work going?


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Unread 03/30/2018, 07:50 AM   #3339
Michael Hoaster
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Thanks Kevin. The root repair hasn't begun yet. It's just been drying out. I'll need to clean and sand it, repair the crack, give it a new paint job, and clear coat it. Once that's done, I'll need to modify the mounting bracket, so it sits lower in the tank.


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 03/31/2018, 06:59 AM   #3340
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Slightly off topic, but also on topic... if I wanted to re-add chaetomorpha to my refugium, how can I "QT" or "sterilize" it? I feel like macroalgae additions can bring it unwanted pests quite easily. Perhaps we're still looking for the answer on this one.


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Unread 03/31/2018, 07:28 AM   #3341
Michael Hoaster
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I've been asking myself the same question lately! One of the main reasons for my tank re-do is to get rid of pests, like dinoflagellates and aiptasias.

To answer your question specifically, I'd soak the chaeto in a 20-1 bleach solution, rinse in seawater, and then put in a holding tank for a week or two, to see if anything pops up. If so, repeat. Hydrogen peroxide is another option. Or maybe do both!

That's what I'm planning to do with my seagrass. I agree, macros can bring in some nasties. I'm going to be more careful with future additions. It kind of sucks, adding complications to adding new plants, but in our closed systems, it makes sense to be careful. Start clean, clean start!


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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Unread 03/31/2018, 07:32 AM   #3342
Subsea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPuff View Post
Slightly off topic, but also on topic... if I wanted to re-add chaetomorpha to my refugium, how can I "QT" or "sterilize" it? I feel like macroalgae additions can bring it unwanted pests quite easily. Perhaps we're still looking for the answer on this one.

It is a crap shoot. For all the protocols that AlgaeBarn use to sell “pest free” macro, they can not warranty it to be pest free. Take Aptasia. If I use a 10% hydrogen peroxide solution bath for ten minutes, I will kill all algae, pods, micro stars and worms, but not Aptasia or coral.

It should be quarantined and observed is my best advice.


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Unread 03/31/2018, 07:41 AM   #3343
Subsea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subsea View Post
Two minute soak of 5% bleach solution killed both macros. After one hour, Bortacladia is losing red pigments and turning clear. I doubt that it will make it.

Enteromorphy is tough. In an outside growout system of three 150G Rubbermade tanks, which was shut down for > 4 years, the interconnecting pipes sprouted strings of Enteromorphy after being dry for that whole 4 year time period. It took 4 months of recirculating thru pipes to rejuvenate algae spores.

Used a 30 second bath with same 5% bleach. Enteromorphy bleached 90% within 15 minutes. After twelve hours, Enteromorphy tendrils are 99% bleached. Some slight bleaching is noted on Halymenia digitata.


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Unread 03/31/2018, 08:08 AM   #3344
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It IS a crap shoot! The more I think about it, the crazier it makes me. I've got hundreds of tiny snails. What am I going to do with them? AAAAAAAHHHHH!

I think the best we can do is try to start with clean, new introductions. Then, it's Mother Nature's turn - or the chemists', depending on your point of view…


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Unread 03/31/2018, 04:33 PM   #3345
Subsea
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Used a 30 second bath with same 5% bleach. Enteromorphy bleached 90% within 15 minutes. After twelve hours, Enteromorphy tendrils are 99% bleached. Some slight bleaching is noted on Halymenia digitata.

After 24 hours both macros were bleached with a 30 second bath in 5% bleach.


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Unread 04/01/2018, 11:45 AM   #3346
taricha
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This is a pretty cool red macro with neat growth form.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2672492
Just wanted to flag it here for folks who might appreciate it.
Red macros never lasted long in my system.


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Unread 04/02/2018, 09:58 AM   #3347
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Subsea, Thanks for doing this. It's important, because I think an exposure of some concentration/time with bleach is needed to cover certain classes of hitchhikers.

To prevent infection of nasties while moving macroalgae, I'd do multiple dips to target multiple things. I'll order them here from mildest to harshest
1. A Bayer dip to target bugs/worms/ crustacea - this is so mild most corals don't even close up.
2. A rinse & shakeout with fresh tap water - if nothing else, this kills almost every stage of every dino. Only exception I know of is prorocentrum dino cysts. The effect is near instant - microscope shows cells already lysed in the 10 sec it takes me to get the slide in place.
3. Some concentration/ time of bleach to oxidize basically any single cells. I think it's important because peroxide regardless of concentration just does not oxidize everything quite the way bleach does. That's why bleach is just about the strongest biocide known. Autoclave is about the only thing harsher on life than bleach.
I left out antibiotic, and you could totally do doxycycline, or maybe iodine if you want but honestly, I think it's redundant if you have bleach.


So this will kill off any single cell organism and most any tiny invert I can imagine. But then you still need to quarantine and monitor, and perhaps treat for particular classes of larger hitchhikers.
It's really unlikely but possible that aptasia or a snail could survive that. So consider snail and aptasia killer chemicals.

There is no 100% never get sick protocol, but that doesn't mean we can't really improve our odds by vaccines, hand washing, disinfecting surfaces etc.

Did I leave anything out? Any other dips/protocols that would be worth doing?


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Unread 04/02/2018, 10:16 AM   #3348
Michael Hoaster
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Thanks taricha and Subsea. I'm so glad everyone's been chiming in on this subject! I've been slack with new introductions in the past, but going forward, I want to have a plan (and equipment) in place to keep nasties out of my aquarium.


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Unread 04/02/2018, 12:53 PM   #3349
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Man, what a bunch of nerds... Haha

Interesting learning about this sciency stuff though!


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Unread 04/02/2018, 01:23 PM   #3350
Michael Hoaster
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Your point being, Mr Kettle?


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As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
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Current Tank Info: 180g Seagrass Sandbar Lagoon, START DATE November 28, 2018
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