Dinoflagellates.

[DavidinGA]

What's the consensus on turning off your skimmer to help win the battle? How many have tried and been successful with that?

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[karimwassef]

Originally Posted by taricha

That's a very good candidate. I was going to point out that a coral used to battle dinos should probably be one with a lot of mucous - one to keep the coral itself from getting colonized and overrun by dinos, and two because a coral's mucous seems to be its store for bacterial associates and allies. The more mucous - I would hypothesize - the bigger the pro-coral posse.

Very true. When I first put them in, there was a line... A perimeter around each disc where no dinos could live. The mucus and bacterial cover is part if it, but their sting kept everything else back too.

Another is the Hollywood stunner ... This is a painfully aggressive coral with copious mucus and a hyper aggressive nocturnal filament attack that decimates their perimeter. Even hair algae can't encroach these nasty polyps.

Again... Caution- these are very fast growing and very aggressive corals and can become nuisance (or killers) over time.

[karimwassef]

You know, the third coral I added was a green slimer... Again - very heavy mucus protection when irritated. I didn't intend on having so many slimy corals... just an coincidence.

Maybe there's a remedy here that comes from "milking" the mucus of slimy corals (like extracting venom from a cobra) and bottling it up as a cure for Dino-sick tanks? No idea how long coral slime can hold out of a living tank... Or the effect on bacterial colonies in it...

But it's a curious idea.

[karimwassef]

Originally Posted by DavidinGA

What's the consensus on turning off your skimmer to help win the battle? How many have tried and been successful with that?

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Several people on this thread have done it. It's part of the "dirty method" and has the same effect as overfeeding.

I used the clean method and needed the skimmer post-UV to remove the waste from dead Dino bodies.

[taricha]

I either had my skimmer off or had it on and cultured the skimmate with light and air stone until it turned green before adding it back to the tank.

Kept up the routine of no nutrient export for weeks until my N and P stayed as high as I wanted them.

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[Kurt03]

Any opinions? Is mine getting worse or better? Maybe this is the worse part of it has to get worse before it gets better?

[Kurt03]

After overfeeding etc for weeks and still 0 nitrate I gave in and dosed some kno3. Dosed 2ppm over a few days, then tested and got merely .125 I think it was. First time I've had detectable nitrate though.

I'm currently overfeeding, dosing amino acids, phyto, oyster feast, running skimmer when lights are off, and contemplating continuing to dose no3 to keep it elevated....

Also thinking when I feel the time is right siphon everything I can and then do a lights out for 3 days but the sps e pretty beat up. The increased feedings, amino acids, and I think finally detectable no3 have them gaining a little color...

[taricha]

Any signs of some shift in growth in the tank?
Or are the dinos just getting good at eating what you are adding? I ask because I don't see signs of much else except dinos.

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[StrangeDejavu]

I plan on starting my 3 day blackout this weekend, but I have a few questions before I do so:

-Should I do a water change first, vacuuming out as much as I can and then doing the blackout? Or will this be counterproductive?

-Do I blackout the sides and the top or just the sides? I can leave the back chamber of my BioCube open for oxygen exchange if need be.

Starting last night, I am dosing 5mL of Microbacter7 every day for the next 2 weeks. The plan is to only run actinics on the first day back, with 1 hour of regular light added back each additional day there after.

Does this sound like a good plan? Am I missing anything?

[Kurt03]

Originally Posted by taricha

Any signs of some shift in growth in the tank?
Or are the dinos just getting good at eating what you are adding? I ask because I don't see signs of much else except dinos.

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Not really. Maybe some coral growth and colors have gotten a little better. I have one mushroom in this tank that's over in the corner for lower light, I thought the lack of Dino's was from low light but maybe the shroom is fighting them. I'll move it onto the frag rack and see what happens.

I'm starting to think a rescue tank to hold and disinfect the corals is my only option. Then I can do a longer lights out etc. Any recommendations on how to get a rescue tank ready to eat Dino's?

[DNA]

I bought a high quality 80W Deltec UV and installed it two weeks ago.
It's treating around 200 g/hour (750 lilters/hour)

This has changed:
More algae on the glass.
Slight increase in dinoflagellates.
Big increase in cyanobacteria.
Miniscule increase in water clarity.

The reason I did not do this earlier is that I had no faith in it, but I had to try.
I'll run it for three months to be sure and then probably remove it.

[karimwassef]

That's unusual. How are you post processing the UV output? Remember that the dead dinos need to be removed or they become food for other things... Algae, dinos, cyano, etc...

Also, do it with the lights out to get them into the water column. That'll also keep the cyano away.

[karimwassef]

Originally Posted by Kurt03

Not really. Maybe some coral growth and colors have gotten a little better. I have one mushroom in this tank that's over in the corner for lower light, I thought the lack of Dino's was from low light but maybe the shroom is fighting them. I'll move it onto the frag rack and see what happens.

I'm starting to think a rescue tank to hold and disinfect the corals is my only option. Then I can do a longer lights out etc. Any recommendations on how to get a rescue tank ready to eat Dino's?

Like a frag tank but let it cycle with live rock for a while... I would seed it with pods and give them enough food without predators so they can go wild. Maybe even push feeding just enough to get a green fuzz and then add snails and hermits.

That's the basics. Once you're there, you should be able to add the coral without infecting the new tank.

If you really want to dino-proof the rescue tank, run an ATS on it and feed it until you have a nice thick growth.

[Kurt03]

Ok, using established rock, new sand with a couple cups of established sand. Already have some diatoms, I'll wait for a hint of green. There is a tang in the tank for qt, hopefully he's not interested in pods. I think I'll make another pod hotel and put that in my display again.

I'm glad the Dino's aren't in my display, they are enough work in the little 20g jeesh.

[Ted_C]

TLDR: No skimming seems to be beating back whatever it is I have.

First - I have to say - this thread is wonderful! Love the discussions regarding the science behind Dinos. Thanks also to all the contributors who found methods to beat this.

Here

and Here

I feel compelled to share my results - but unfortunately I do not have any microscope shots of whatever this is.

Like most - my problems started because of a mis-assumption. Nearly everyone on here identifies Dino behavior as showing up on the sandbed and the mucus containing bubbles. I had neither of these - but did have a severe outbreak of brown slime. This lead me to the assumption that I was dealing with algae and a nutrient issue rather than a dinoflagellate outbreak. My troubles started soon after I had set-up the tank. I was probably running 3 months into a new setup. I skipped the diatom phase. I skipped the algae phase as well. I went straight to this brown slime showing up.

On the other hand, I did see other situations that made me think it might be some form of Dinoflagellate. Snails died (except for one turbo and one trochus), 1 out of 2 emerald crabs died. Nutrient reduction had no effect on whatever this stuff was.

2015-3-29: Startup Cycling.


As you can see, it's a pretty sterile system. The purpose of the system initially is to be a quarantine while I build out my big tank. Down the road - it will be a frag tank / coral quarantine tank.

The plan I had for this tank was to let everything run it's course without the use of chemicals. If I had an Algae outbreak - I would try to deal with it naturally through aggressive skimming, increased water changes, etc. I do not test for Nitrates or Phosphates - instead I use the tank as my indicator for a problem. The greatest extent I have for chemicals is a KalkStirrer for my Auto top off. Cyano? Reduce feedings and aggressively export.

The main architecture of the tank is: 150 gallon Oceanic, dual overflows (Herbie style) - 2 x 10 Micron filter socks, Nyos Quantum 200 skimmer, DC 11000 return running at 75%. I also have a closed loop in the sump where I pass sump water through a 25 W Aqua UV and a 1/4 hp Chiller (water's returned to the filter sock) with a DC 4000 running at 100%. The internal circulation of the tank is handled with a maxspect gyre 150 running at 60%

Biological filtration is handled with two 4"x4"x8" CerMedia bioblocks. They were in the sump in the above picture but moved to the main display shortly after. Tank was seeded with rock rubble from a local LFS and with a pack of stuff from IPSF (Pods, worms, Actuator, sand starter).

Maintenance: every day I would empty the skimmer cup and every other day I change out the filter socks. I would change the water out once per week at around 25 gallons.

Feeding: I feed 1/2 block of Mysis PE in the morning and 1/2 block of Mysis in the evening. The autofeeder drops in about 20 baby Daichni pellets at 12:00 Noon.

Livestock: One Male Bangaii, 2 mating clownfish, one copperband (deceased), one Tomini Tang, 3 firefish, one neon goby, 4 blue leg hermits, one Turbo snail, One red-banded trochus snail, 2 skunk cleaner shrimp

As of 6/21/2015 - I had the tank stock starting to ramp up and took this video of some clownfish that I thought were aggressive (turns out it was only the bellus angel). The key here is you can see the brown slime algae starting on the frag plugs in the middle there.



I thought the frag plugs may be messing up the flow (assumption is I had Cyano) - so I removed the frag plugs to improve the flow characteristics. No effect.

Since I'm still on the assumption that I'm dealing with a nutrient problem (or maybe it was some type of Cyano - I tried an application of Boyd's Chemiclean (Feb 2016). I've worked with this before on a cyano outbreak in a separate tank a few years ago and know how it works. After 24 hours - the cyano should break up. This didn't occur. Applied a second treatment. Still no effect. What happened was - I did need to keep my skimmer off. It just overflowed and sent microbubbles to the display if I turned it on.

After the Chemiclean treatment - I changed out 100 gallons over three days. At this time, I was able to re-start the skimmer. Surprisingly, the brown slime receded but was not eliminated. This led me down the path of a "false positive" that it was a nutrient problem and water changes, aggressive wet skimming would help me.

Come to 4/28/2016 - this is what My tank looked like. It's looked like this for most of the year. Once a month I would get in there with a brush and export the brown slime to the filter socks and scrub everything down in an effort to export whatever this was.


Off topic - but surprisingly, the clownfish continued to lay eggs throughout this entire ordeal. This was their second clutch that I actually got to see and take pictures of. They had a first clutch in March and a third clutch at the middle of May.


Again, I never saw any amount of brown slime on the sand bed. In this shot - with the assumption that I'm still dealing wit a nutrient problem - I was in the process of removing the last of the sand bed.

After speaking with the LFS (unfortuantly - they do not have a microscope - neither did any of my local reefkeepers): it was suggested this may be Dinoflagellate.

On 5/14/2016 - I started a 3 day blackout (to short of a time after reading this thread). I taped the entire tank and back window to eliminate 100% of the light from entering the tank. I turned off the LEDs and closed up the canopy.

On 5/15 after starting to read this thread, I thought I would also try the pH increase. Unfortunately, I discovered my pH probe was old and running out of life - so I'm unsure on how high my pH actually was. I increased the pH on my raising from 7.6 (at it's lowest) to 8.2 at it's highest.

I would peak into the tank from time to time. I exported alot of brown slime to the filter socks - changed out daily. But I would still see filaments growing on the frag racks.

After getting further into this thread - I found the ideas regarding a dirty tank (from Monti and Cygni). On Wednesday - I turned off my skimmer and UV to try to promote a dirtier tank and to allow the biodiversity to bounce back. I was thinking of ordering phyto and pods - but haven't done it yet. I'm still running and changing the filter socks daily throughout this time.

On 5/21/2016 - The copperband butterfly started having some problems (weak, getting nipped at by the Bangaii and Clowns, caught in the maxspect gyre). I re-started the skimmer in an effort to reduce the nutrient buildup but it had no effect. I lost him.

Coming out of blackout - 5/18/2016


Lights on - 5/20/2016


Today: 5/21/2016


So every day I look at the tank - it continues to improve. I see a bit more green hair algae or green bubble algae and less brown in the tank.

[mnchartier]

Anyone able to ID this. Have had them for a long time. Sorry for quality as this was with my kids microscope and a cell phone camera. First two are videos

[StrangeDejavu]

Originally Posted by Ted_C

So every day I look at the tank - it continues to improve. I see a bit more green hair algae or green bubble algae and less brown in the tank.

The beginning of your tank sounds a lot like mine. At first, I only saw tiny portions of slime, maybe the size of a quarter, in the sand. For the most part, I had diatoms, and (what I thought then) cyano. I was reading through a thread on RC and this guy was detailing his first year and how he was on cloud 9 with his tank, adding fish, adding coral, just overall enjoying the entire thing. He went on about how around month 6 his tank reached a point with algae that had him so depressed he couldn't even enjoy the tank anymore. The thing that stood out to me was how he said "if I could do it over, I would focus on prevention early instead of trying to deal with it once it's a problem". I thought okay, I hear that loud and clear. I was just starting to see some green hair algae appear in my tank, so I ordered BRS GFO. I started seeing a spot of cyano on the rock above where the green hair algae had appeared, so I bought a skimmer. I even modded it to skim at its full potential, and it seems like since I added GFO & the skimmer, the dinos have increased exponentially. What started out as a patch in the sand is now 75% of my sandbed and every surface of my rock. It doesn't send off a lot of strings, and also doesn't get covered in oxygen bubbles like you see on Google Images. Mine looked nothing like those pics, which also put me in the same boat as you, believing it to off-the-rails diatoms, cyano or something else entirely.

I'm not super happy about the price, but I did order the copepod/phytoplankton bundle from AlgaeBarn last night, which will be here Wednesday. I feel like i'm on the right track by shutting off the skimmer, removing GFO. Add to that a blackout and daily Microbacter7 and Phyto dosing and the addition of 3,000+ copepods. I wasn't sure how I felt about the biodiveristy/dino link when I first came into this thread, but it's pretty obvious to me at this point. What confirmed it for me was comparing my Dad's tank to my own. He and I both bought BioCube 29s, we both used Fiji Pink live sand, and we both bought Real Reef live rock purchased from the same LFS. At the 3 month mark, his tank is absolutely crawling with life. Spirorbid worms, colonista snails, featherdusters everywhere, the return chamber is covered in pineapple sponges, ball anenomes, copepods, amphipods... the list goes on. I'm approaching 2.5 months and I have just discovered my first spirorbid worm with another growing next to it. He also isn't running a skimmer, carbon or GFO... just some filter floss. At this point, the link between biodiversity and dinos is pretty apparent to me.

I have no doubt that I caused this problem because I tried too hard. Someone here has a quote in their signature that could really sum it up, and it said "Think about it, but don't overthink it." If I had taken this approach from the beginning rather than trying to micromanage every aspect of this tank, I feel I wouldn't be in this situation right now.

[StrangeDejavu]

So I was looking at photos I took just 3 days ago (when I shut off my skimmer and started Microbacter7 dosing) and compared them with a photo I just took. I'm surprised to see improvement in the sand already. However, i'm undecided if the rock looks any better. If anything, it looks a little worse. Hmm...

[taricha]

Originally Posted by StrangeDejavu

I plan on starting my 3 day blackout this weekend, but I have a few questions before I do so:

-Should I do a water change first, vacuuming out as much as I can and then doing the blackout? Or will this be counterproductive?

Yes, yes. actual export of dinos somehow is pretty important. siphoning as much as possible means you have fewer toxins and a less dramatic swing as the dinos fade.

Originally Posted by StrangeDejavu

-Do I blackout the sides and the top or just the sides? I can leave the back chamber of my BioCube open for oxygen exchange if need be.

assume whatever level of light helps your coral also helps dinos, so if you're going to black out, then black out.

Originally Posted by StrangeDejavu

Starting last night, I am dosing 5mL of Microbacter7 every day for the next 2 weeks. The plan is to only run actinics on the first day back, with 1 hour of regular light added back each additional day there after.

Does this sound like a good plan? Am I missing anything?

What do you intend to replace the dino growth with? leaving your system a biodiversity desert will probably not last very long. I don't know that people have had good results with just bacterial replacement.
Those would be my concerns.

edit:
Just read your later post with the phyto, pods info. that is a replacement some poeple have had success with. Good luck.

[taricha]

Messing around with some beaker tests:
Wanted to get a ballpark idea of what level of Hydrogen peroxide is needed to kill ostreopsis. So I did some crude dose-response tests.
Round 1:
four 50 mill beakers tank water/Ostis
added 1 drop, 4 drops, 16, and 64 drops of H2O2 (normal 3%)
24 hours later...
expected 1 to do nothing and 64 to be a wipeout, but actually all 4 were wipeouts. no dino movement in any, dinos in control beaker were nice and happy and moving. for the 16 and 64 drops, the dinos actually lost their characteristic pigment, their remains were greyed out. (not clear like the theca)
I didn't expect the 1 drop to completely stop them in their tracks, but I should have checked the numbers: 32 drops out of my dropper makes a mill, so 1 drop in 50 mill was actually adding the equivalent of 2.4 ml per gallon, which is a lot.

So Round 2:
I used a little syringe - in 100ml Osti/water mix I added
.01ml, .02ml, .04ml, .08ml, .16ml of peroxide
After about 30 min the .01 and .02 looked pretty similar to the control. The .04ml might have had half of ostis stop moving. The .08 and the .16 had no moving dinos. I checked back on the .04 ml beaker after an hour - still looked about the same as at 30 minutes.
I'll post vids later.
.04ml H2O2/100ml tank water = 1.5ml per Gallon
.08ml H2O2/100ml tank water = 3.0ml per Gallon
(interestingly, I still saw ciliates - looked like euplotes - a little smaller than the ostis that were still swimming around in both the .08ml and the .16ml treated beakers)

Of course, these are not recommendations. I have no idea what all in a reef system would be killed by 1 mill or 2 of peroxide per gallon. Lots I figure.

[karimwassef]

Peroxide has a short life and impact zone (distance). This is actually a key to its safety IMO.

It works for local attack, but not as effective when broadcast.

A reactor may be a good middle ground? Run the loop into a brightly lit space and the apply the peroxide. There would still be a need to remove the dead to avoid creating a new food source.

[karimwassef]

I thought Ostis have a hard shell that makes them immune to chemical attacks?

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

Peroxide has a short life and impact zone (distance). This is actually a key to its safety IMO.

It works for local attack, but not as effective when broadcast.

A reactor may be a good middle ground? Run the loop into a brightly lit space and the apply the peroxide. There would still be a need to remove the dead to avoid creating a new food source.

Look up a thread by twilliard called

Back at it! Peroxide vrs cyanobacteria

I can't link to it but you can google search that.

[karimwassef]

Cyano - sure, but dinos are more than cyano.

[taricha]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

I thought Ostis have a hard shell that makes them immune to chemical attacks?

Resistant. Not immune. Takes much more peroxide to knock out ostis than say, cyano. And much more than amphidinium dinos too.
I found literature on dose response to peroxide for lots of other types of phytoplankton, but couldn't find any for ostreopsis, so trying to at least come up with a ballpark figure.