the secret to colorful,healthy corals....obvious to some,elusive to many

[n8rad]

so what is everyone's feeling on socks? Would you not want them so food is constantly floating around in the tank for fish and corals? and given enough time the skimmer will eventually get it. You would need some flow in your sump though to keep it suspended.
Sunny X's tank from back in the day is what i think of when he had powerheads in his sump. No socks either..just a skimmer and heater.

[ecotanker]

I would not use socks. I do not even use a skimmer, just an algae scrubber, a sulphur denitrator and a chaeto refugium. I fix my coral 4 - 5 times a day, and just have the food circulate around in the tank.

Originally Posted by n8rad

so what is everyone's feeling on socks? Would you not want them so food is constantly floating around in the tank for fish and corals? and given enough time the skimmer will eventually get it. You would need some flow in your sump though to keep it suspended.
Sunny X's tank from back in the day is what i think of when he had powerheads in his sump. No socks either..just a skimmer and heater.

[Horace]

My experience is that the color has more to do with nutrients or the lack there of than it does Alk, For the record, I always kept my Alk about 8.0, but that was also using Seachem salt, which tests high because of the high boron, so i was likely closer to 7.5 in reality.

When I had 0 NO3 0 PO4, I had **** for colors. They were always pale. I have always had intense lights. At one point (and the tank looked the best btw), I had 2x400w XM20k and 2x 110w Vho over my 75g. Thats over 1000w of lights on a small tank like that. Prior to that I had 6x54w T5HO, and blamed that for the poor/pale colors. I tried nearly everything to get the colors that my buddy was getting on his tank (most of the corals came from his amazing tank). All anyone would tell me to do was add this or that additive, and unfortunately I spent hundreds of dollars chasing those colors and listening to poor advice.

Finally I just listened to one guy saying to add more fish and feed 2x as much. It was like overnight that my tank looked AMAZING. Colors exploded....why? Because I had allowed my nutrients to edge up ever so slightly from 0,0 to just high enough for my test kits to register a reading.

So IMHO, pale colors are often the result of under fed corals. They simply do not have enough constant food supply in most tanks, and without a bit of added No3, or some other nitrogen source, the colors fade.

Here is an idea of what my tank looked like AFTER just allowing No3 to edge up slightly

[Horace]

Originally Posted by reefgeezer

I've read this very interesting thread several times. I've debated posting because I'm just a hobbyist, but what the heck...

Wouldn't the organic nutrients that are constantly introduced to the water column be as available to the corals as they are to the other organisms we rely on for export? Even if the availability period is short for any single input, could the constant input of organic N & P from biological processes allow corals to get what they need? Could pale colors result from our zeal at reducing N & P numbers and not feeding well in the process? Could a well fed, moderately high bioload system that tests zero for N & P also produce vivid colors because the corals compete for the available nutrients as they are produced?

The answer in my opinion is YES

If you have no Po4 and No3, you MUST feed like crazy or have a ton of fish. So if you have filters capable of removing nutrients at a super high rate, then you had better be feeding a ton to make sure your corals do not starve. You have to find a balance, because our tanks dont have the steady stream of food like the ocean has, which is why IMHO having detectable Po4 and No3 is absolutely critical in a closed system reef tank, again unless you have a boatload of available food...which is pretty damn hard to accomplish without having some No3/Po4

[hkgar]

I think you are right, Horace. I cannot get my NO3 or PO4 to zero. I have about 16 fish and feed pretty heavy. It equates to about 4 cubes per day.

My last testing was PO4 .05 (started GFO for a couple days) and NO3 3.

AND I dose vinegar/vodka, run an ATS and run GFO and I do have a skimmer. I do not have any GHA. Here are some pics (sorry for the heavy blue from a cell phone camera)

[hkgar]

More PIcs

[Newms118]

Ok Im jumpin in here now because I've kind of reached a limit. I have an LPS/SPS/Leathers/Softies tank with currently no fish in it because of Ich issues. My parameters:

Ca: 500+ ppm
Alk: 10 dkH
Mg: 1350 ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm (nitrate pro test kit)
Phosphate: 0 ppm (Hanna)

I have absolute crap coloring. I've tried lowering my LED intensity, raising the LED intenisty, using NO3PO4X to obliterate the NO3/Phosphate (currently doing this now), bought the Korallen 4 color system and have been adding this as well. Nothing has an effect except I recently lost my encrusting montipora (it went white in spots and then the tissue just all died and was eaten by critters).

Ive tried heavily feeding with reef labs and coral frenzy etc, up to twice weekly, only the smallest hint of color change. But then I couldnt get more with more feeding.

So what should I try? More feeding? Lower the Alk? I know the calcium is too high, its slowly coming down, I think I over dosed or something, so far not dosing anymore until back to normal.

[Newms118]

All right, apparently Spectracide stump remover is the go to for adding back nitrate. Are people still using this or is some other source better to use. I guess it makes some sense for my tank since when I add amino acids (Korallen) my LPS tentacles extend for all of 5 minutes before barely coming out again.

[bif24701]

Originally Posted by Newms118

All right, apparently Spectracide stump remover is the go to for adding back nitrate. Are people still using this or is some other source better to use. I guess it makes some sense for my tank since when I add amino acids (Korallen) my LPS tentacles extend for all of 5 minutes before barely coming out again.

Yes, people do use it. Many use it daily with fantastic results!

[Nano sapiens]

Originally Posted by Horace

The answer in my opinion is YES

If you have no Po4 and No3, you MUST feed like crazy or have a ton of fish. So if you have filters capable of removing nutrients at a super high rate, then you had better be feeding a ton to make sure your corals do not starve. You have to find a balance, because our tanks dont have the steady stream of food like the ocean has, which is why IMHO having detectable Po4 and No3 is absolutely critical in a closed system reef tank, again unless you have a boatload of available food...which is pretty damn hard to accomplish without having some No3/Po4

Just to make things more interesting/complicated, 'undectable' NO3 (ELOS) and PO4 (Salifert) with good coral coloration from an unfiltered 12g with just live rock/live sand (no skimmer, GAC, GFO, floss, etc.):



Since inorganics are relatively low (Triton returned 0.015 for PO4), the possibilities I can come up with for additional nutrients are the products from the zooxanthellae/other contributing members of the coral holobiont, fish/invert waste (a few tiny gobies/anemone shrimp/crinoid squat lobster,small CUC), externally added organics (I feed lightly 2x/day), in-tank excess sponge cells and bacterial.

[karimwassef]

Measured levels are not an indication of what the system is using. In fact, they're indications of overflow nutrients not being used for growth or coloration...

Let me give you an example... Let's say you have a very thirsty plant species that consumes a lot of water to grow and survive... And three farmers. One adds very little water, one provides a lot of water, and the third provides a constant flood way above the needs of the plant. For all three farmers, we look at the water level around the plant.

The first farmer's plant turns yellow and sickly, but there's no water around it. Sick + no water.
The second one is green, healthy and drinks up all the water around it. Very healthy + no water.
The third one is sickly and moldy and sits in a puddle of water. Sick + plenty of excess water.

Now if you just look at the results and try to connect the measured water to the health of the plant, you'll go nuts and have plenty of arguments about what's good for a plant... The second farmer got it right, even though he provided a lot of water but just enough for the plant to drink so there was no excess.

The reality is that we do the same - we measure the excess unused nutrients and then try to relate that to coral health. Without understanding the consumption rate by the corals themselves, it's meaningless. The successful coral farmer provides a lot of nutrients but not much above the coral consumption. The result is healthy corals and low levels of measurable excess nutrients...









All pics under metal halide only - no LEDs or other lights.

[Montireef]

Great words Karim, I completely agree.

Moreover I would say that the key consists in providing plenty of organic nutrients meanwhile we avoid build up inorganic nutrients

[karimwassef]

yes. because excess organics become inorganics... and then hair and bacteria mess.

[DiscusHeckel]

I like your analogy Karim.

[GAM GAM]

Such a good read(all 3 days of it)

So to paraphrase everything I just read, maximizing acropora Color/health/growth is about balancing your alkalinity, nutrients, and lighting. If you have alk that is too high for your lighting intensity and nutrient level you can have problems with your tips or faded colours. Too low alk for your lighting and nutrient level and you can have faded colours and/ or base problems. If your light levels are too high for your alk and nutrient levels you will have faded or pastel Color. Alternately if your light levels are too low for your alk and nutrient levels you will have brown corals. If your nutrient levels are too high for your alk and light levels you will have brown corals, and finally if your nutrient levels are too low for your light and alk numbers you will have faded or pastel colours.

From what I read the "trick" is to maximize your "nutrient" (NO3/PO4) removal (carbon dosing, large skimmer, GFO, sump shopvac, and the trusty siphon), while "maximizing" your food input (within reason). While providing powerful lighting from a proven light source over a reasonable photoperiod while providing adequate PAR levels.

So.... We should aim for "zero" NO4/PO3 think pastel zeovit tank, maximum nutrient export and starving corals, BUT...... Quadruple the food you provide. Take a pastel zeo tank (just an example, but any sterile super clean system) with very light colours, then up the feeding (really whatever it takes) to Color them up, then ad some more food while maintaining your high export practice. If you over shoot and end up with some brown then "balance" this out with a small bump or two of your photoperiod, some higher par bulbs or a bump in led output. I would think the last resort would be to reduce feeding.

At this point with your food maximized, your nutrient export maximized, and your lighting really finishing off the fine tuning your acropora Color should be about as good as it gets. Too brown add some time to your photoperiod or back off the feeding. Too light/pastel colours then feed some more or back of off the photoperiod or par.

I didn't really go into the alkalinity but if you are running a super clean "sterile" system you run NSW levels for alk 7ish. You probably can get away with the lowest par levels for a sps system, and as your nutrient levels rise (NO3/PO4) the higher you HAVE to run your alk, and the higher levels of par you can expose your acro to. Now to get the best Color you run a system super clean/sterile, with alk at NSW levels 7-8 and feed your tank hard, which allows you to really put down some really high par on your acros. Try to hold your "ulns" "zero" numbers while feeding Super heavy.

This thread is so full of good stuff it should probably be a sticky
Just sayin

[ssick92]

Great info provided here. Following along.

I really like the farmer analogy, and it makes a ton of sense as to why there are so many different schools of thought regarding nutrients, lighting, parameters, etc.

I agree this should be stickied...

[bif24701]

So much good stuff here wow.

My thoughts:

1, NSW may be "low" in nutrients when tested however no one has considered the fact that the volume of nutrients is far more than our little boxes. They have all they need in there. Also they have linked increased PO4 with lower bleaching rates.

2, The reefs receive a constant food supply and fresh clean water 24/7. Gam Gam you really are in to something!

3, Replicating this in our homes is key I think. I have terrible colors and growth in my new system. My filtration consists of: oversized skimmer (SRO-5000), NOPOX, GFO and ROX .8 carbon in reactor, MarinePure block, Cheato fuge, high quality Pulkani LR, filter socks and flow (60x's display). I have few fish and because my system is new some algae so the standard reaction is to reduce nutrients as much as possible and limit feeding. My Nitrates are zero 0.00ppm RSP kit/PO4 is 0.02ppm Hanna ULR.

So my new approach:
Add fish! Just added two tangs
Feed! I now feed my fish all they want and then some! I mean it, a lot. Pellets, frozen, with Selcon, and Nori. I also feed my corals Reef Chili and coral frenzy alternating a couple times per week. I have already seen increased color and growth throughout but not any increase in algae.

Why hasn't algae started taking over?

Because my excess inorganic nutrients haven budged, still undetectable NO3 and less than .03 PO4. Still has been going on for the last 4-5 weeks.

I closely watch for increased growth on glass. When I see more film algae on surfaces I either clean the skimmer, change GFO/carbon, up my NOPOX dose. Also now that I have added an auto neck cleaner my water is cleaner than ever. I run filter socks and would love to remove them but micro bubbles are a problem for me.

The skimmer is the real work horse here. It's is well sized for my 180 display and 300gallons total system volume. In fact feeding more has caused it to operate better.

My ALK is high around 9.5 test almost daily. Maintained by Kalk.

Lighting is also intense. Kessil AP700 (X2), 70% intensity for 7 hours. I don't dare take it over 70, each time I've tried my montis bleach in days. I have measured my PAR and just about every square inch gets ~200 PAR or more. The majority of my corals are easily in the 300+ range.


Bottom line there is a direct link to coral growth and color with light intensity and feeding. Maybe the exact biological functions and chemistry of this link or other factors might be a mystery to us. There can be no doubt that more lighting needs more food, this creates suitable environment for increase growth that leads to a need for additional carbonate/bicarbonate.

Also note that high pH increase available bicarbonate needed for calcification. So a stable increase of pH is warranted to an extent that more bicarbonate is available to corals.

Here is some really good reading!

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002...stry#section-7


In conclusion I feel it is important to keep organics up for coral nutrition while keeping the broken down by inorganic products down (NO3, PO4).

Aaron

[Vinno]

Hey guys,

All my fish are out of the tank at the moment getting treatment for ick, so the tank has been 3 months, ive did some checks tonight and 0 phosphate 0 nitrate.

Last time i checked it was 3 months ago as i moved the fish, it was 0 phosphate and about 3-5 nitrate.

So is frozen fish food + pellet dumping better (how long before it breaks to release nitrate) or some kind of nitrate powder?

[elegance coral]

Originally Posted by Vinno

Hey guys,

So is frozen fish food + pellet dumping better (how long before it breaks to release nitrate) or some kind of nitrate powder?

The speed at which organic matter breaks down will vary with the conditions of the system. Higher temperatures and oxygen levels will lead to a more rapid break down of organics.

I'm personally not a big fan of adding inorganic nitrogen and phosphorus. I know it's becoming increasingly more popular, but I really don't get it. At least not where SPS corals are concerned. The organisms we keep that depend on these things are bacteria, algae, and zooxanthellae. Most of us don't want to grow more bacteria and algae, so the only benefit I can see is an increase in zooxanthellae. We can maintain a healthy population of zooxanthellae simply by insuring that their host is well nourished. This is precisely how it works in areas of the ocean where inorganic nutrients are very very low, and healthy growing coral reefs exist. The waste products of a well fed coral should provide plenty of fertilizers to support a healthy population of zooxanthellae without increasing inorganic nutrient levels in the open water of the system.

JMHO
Peace
EC

[ERIC85854]

Well there's definately a link between higher measureable nitrate and faster growth.

[supscribe]

I had 30 nitrate and water changed to bring it down to 5-10 but maybe I should ride out the higher nitrates and see what happens

[ERIC85854]

Originally Posted by supscribe

I had 30 nitrate and water changed to bring it down to 5-10 but maybe I should ride out the higher nitrates and see what happens

I lost color and growth when my nitrate level went to 3 or less (NYOS). It seems like not everyone's experience is the same but I will try to keep mine around 5.

[DiscusHeckel]

My measurable nitrates are between 2.5-5 ppm (Salifert) and measurable phosphates are between 0.024-0.046 mg/L (but are typically 0.046 mg/L) (Elos High Sensitivity). My alkalinity is at NSW (6.45 dKH-7.45 dKH). My corals seem to be at their happiest when alkalinity is at NSW levels.

I dose a product that contains organic nitrogen, organic carbon, inorganic phosphates, inorganic nitrates and organic phosphates. You can see plenty more pictures if you follow the links in my signature.

[hkgar]

Originally Posted by DiscusHeckel

My measurable nitrates are between 2.5-5 ppm (Salifert) and measurable phosphates are between 0.024-0.046 mg/L (but are typically 0.046 mg/L) (Elos High Sensitivity). My alkalinity is at NSW (6.45 dKH-7.45 dKH). My corals seem to be at their happiest when alkalinity is at NSW levels.

I dose a product that contains organic nitrogen, organic carbon, inorganic phosphates, inorganic nitrates and organic phosphates. You can see plenty more pictures if you follow the links in my signature.

Beautiful tank. What are the ATI bulbs you are using? I am using 6x80 W ATI over my 180 and the colors are now where near as popping.

I have front to back B+, P+, B+, Aquablue, Geisseman Tropic (6500k), Actinic, B+, B+

ALK 7.8
CA 450
Mag 1350
PO4 .04
NO3 5

[DiscusHeckel]

I am using front blue+ coral+ actinic abs purple+ blue+ coral+ blue+ back