the secret to colorful,healthy corals....obvious to some,elusive to many

[herring_fish]

You should be able to dial in a reading that you are looking for by adjusting the photo period. Just back off on the time that the lights are on until you get what you want. The balance between N and P might be harder to achieve by adjusting the photo period so you might have to choose which one is more important and use that as the guide.

Sometimes, the amount of live rock and other factors can affect the amount of bacteria that you have in your tank. Bacteria in the tank can also contribute to the reduction of the nutrient load in the tank but it removes N and P in a different ratio than algae does so your result may vary from the next user.

On a side note, if you look at the posts of some people that dose vodka, you will find that some of them carefully dose Nitrates for example so that bacteria in those tanks are not limited which can cause the bacteria’s effectiveness to be depressed. I played with vodka to grow bacteria as a food source, not to export waste. After dosing vodka, I found that my ATS starved for N and stopped working. After dosing Nitrates, my system came back into balance and the scrubber began to work again.

Some people dose waste products to do very fine tuning of both N and P to keep them on their perfect range but in most cases, that is not necessary and just too much of a hassle to mess with and can even be dangerous.

Hopefully, backing off on the photo period will be all that you would need to do.

[sensei]

Originally Posted by markalot

I don't run a scrubber but the answer seems obvious. No matter how you remove it very low PO4 is not good. Can you adjust the scrubber so you achieve some kind of elevated PO4 reading?

Markalot

Thanks for your answer.
I am trying to find out if there is a way to fine tune the algae scrubber to have measurable levels of PO4
in your experience what levels of PO4 and NO3 do you find for your sps to do better?

thanks again

[sensei]

Originally Posted by herring_fish

You should be able to dial in a reading that you are looking for by adjusting the photo period. Just back off on the time that the lights are on until you get what you want. The balance between N and P might be harder to achieve by adjusting the photo period so you might have to choose which one is more important and use that as the guide.

Sometimes, the amount of live rock and other factors can affect the amount of bacteria that you have in your tank. Bacteria in the tank can also contribute to the reduction of the nutrient load in the tank but it removes N and P in a different ratio than algae does so your result may vary from the next user.

On a side note, if you look at the posts of some people that dose vodka, you will find that some of them carefully dose Nitrates for example so that bacteria in those tanks are not limited which can cause the bacteria’s effectiveness to be depressed. I played with vodka to grow bacteria as a food source, not to export waste. After dosing vodka, I found that my ATS starved for N and stopped working. After dosing Nitrates, my system came back into balance and the scrubber began to work again.

Some people dose waste products to do very fine tuning of both N and P to keep them on their perfect range but in most cases, that is not necessary and just too much of a hassle to mess with and can even be dangerous.

Hopefully, backing off on the photo period will be all that you would need to do.

Thanks for the answer. I was posting the previous message when you answered.
I dose NOPOX ( which includes alcohol, sugar and acetic acid) and still do after adding the algae scrubber, but I only dose 15ml per day. My NO3 is 7.5 ppm and I have not seen a change jet with the addition of the algae scrubber, but my PO4 did drop fomo 0.12 to 0 in less than 10 days
I was running my ATS for 16 hours and it sounds logical to reduce the photo period to lower the filtration of the scrubber, but now I have cero.
should I turn off lights until PO4 show again and then turn on lights slowly after that? maybe start with only 8 hours? please tell me what do you think

what level of PO4 and NO3 do you have with the algae scrubber running?
do you have a DIY scrubber or do you use one fomo turbo aquatics or any other?

thanks for your answer

[herring_fish]

I have run an ATS since the early 90’s. The ATO crashed my tank while I was on vacation so I am starting a new 180 gallon tank. I designed and built a true dump bucket style Algae Turf Scrubber. They all work about the same, having different positives and negatives but they all simply grow algae.

Most of the time, I ran N=0 and P=0. Only recently have any guide lines been establish/suggested. I am not an expert on the “perfect range” for either N or P. If you spend some time searching, you can find what people think are the right amounts to have.

After having my melt down, I plan to buy a control system so I will have the ability to fine tune my light period to better regulate pH and the dosing of all kinds of things, Auto Top Off, foods, nutrients, etc.

I’m just about finish with the cabinet build and will soon be putting water in the tank. At that point I will be revisiting the threads. Unfortunately, I don’t remember the names of the threads so I will have to re-research the ones that espouse the “perfect” levels of just about everything. Of course they do not all agree so there isn’t just one place to look.

[sensei]

Originally Posted by herring_fish

I have run an ATS since the early 90’s. The ATO crashed my tank while I was on vacation so I am starting a new 180 gallon tank. I designed and built a true dump bucket style Algae Turf Scrubber. They all work about the same, having different positives and negatives but they all simply grow algae.

Most of the time, I ran N=0 and P=0. Only recently have any guide lines been establish/suggested. I am not an expert on the “perfect range” for either N or P. If you spend some time searching, you can find what people think are the right amounts to have.

After having my melt down, I plan to buy a control system so I will have the ability to fine tune my light period to better regulate pH and the dosing of all kinds of things, Auto Top Off, foods, nutrients, etc.

I’m just about finish with the cabinet build and will soon be putting water in the tank. At that point I will be revisiting the threads. Unfortunately, I don’t remember the names of the threads so I will have to re-research the ones that espouse the “perfect” levels of just about everything. Of course they do not all agree so there isn’t just one place to look.

I look forward to seing your new tank,
thanks

[reefgeezer]

I've read this very interesting thread several times. I've debated posting because I'm just a hobbyist, but what the heck...

Wouldn't the organic nutrients that are constantly introduced to the water column be as available to the corals as they are to the other organisms we rely on for export? Even if the availability period is short for any single input, could the constant input of organic N & P from biological processes allow corals to get what they need? Could pale colors result from our zeal at reducing N & P numbers and not feeding well in the process? Could a well fed, moderately high bioload system that tests zero for N & P also produce vivid colors because the corals compete for the available nutrients as they are produced?

[drsalomon]

John,
I think your point is good. There is a big difference between zero N and P at all times and having some flux of nutrients through the system which could be captured along the way. I have had best results with 2 ppm nitrate and 0.03 phosphate and feeding like crazy while maintaining levels with GFO/ethanol on a heavily stocked tank.

[sensei]

I believe algae is more eficient absorving nutrients than corals, thus having zero N and P would make it difficult for coral to compete for the available nutrients in the water.

I still do not know if it is possible to have a great sps tank that tests zero for N and P?
In my experience I only started gaining color until N and P where greater than zero

[malira]

Originally Posted by sensei

I believe algae is more eficient absorving nutrients than corals, thus having zero N and P would make it difficult for coral to compete for the available nutrients in the water.

I still do not know if it is possible to have a great sps tank that tests zero for N and P?
In my experience I only started gaining color until N and P where greater than zero

Me too. We just about crashed my son's 90g mixed reef tank. We were running bio-pellets, phosguard, carbon, 200 micron filter, water changes, and the final straw was loosing 4 of his 9 fish through death and removal.
Algae took 15 days to grow on the glass. After a few months corals were paling terribly and it took getting off everything except 1 cup of phosguard and feeding 2 to 3 times a day for 2 weeks to finally see any nitrates. I still have 0 detectable phosphates but I do have them. The cyano tells me I do.
But I do have growth and color. I stopped feeding and started dosing 20 ml of spectracide stump remover every 3 to 4 days to keep my nitrates around 3 to 4 ppm.
Hopefully I can stop when we get more fish.

[CStrickland]

Originally Posted by reefgeezer

Wouldn't the organic nutrients that are constantly introduced to the water column be as available to the corals as they are to the other organisms we rely on for export? Even if the availability period is short for any single input, could the constant input of organic N & P from biological processes allow corals to get what they need? Could pale colors result from our zeal at reducing N & P numbers and not feeding well in the process? Could a well fed, moderately high bioload system that tests zero for N & P also produce vivid colors because the corals compete for the available nutrients as they are produced?

sounds good to me.
Anybody that's target fed an lps knows they like organic nutrients.
I'm still not really sure that the N&P tests are actually telling us; whether they are a proxy for appropriate input of organics (measuring leftovers), or the animals actually use them in that form.

[reefgeezer]

[QUOTE=malira;24158948] I still have 0 detectable phosphates but I do have them. The cyano tells me I do.[QUOTE]

Can't Cyano, some other bacteria, and some corals use N & P that is not available to algae or test kits. Can't they process organic compounds containing N & P. I don't understand the process, but I thought that was the case.

[malira]

[QUOTE=reefgeezer;24159233][QUOTE=malira;24158948] I still have 0 detectable phosphates but I do have them. The cyano tells me I do.

Can't Cyano, some other bacteria, and some corals use N & P that is not available to algae or test kits. Can't they process organic compounds containing N & P. I don't understand the process, but I thought that was the case.

Probably. I don't understand it either. I just figured because I heard that phosphates could be locked up in the cyano. Whatever that means.

[sensei]

N or P may test zero because algae or cyano is consuming what is available in water not leave anything for the test kits to detect. if you had no algae or no cyano in same water then the nutrients would be readable in test kits.

[reefgeezer]

Originally Posted by sensei

N or P may test zero because algae or cyano is consuming what is available in water not leave anything for the test kits to detect. if you had no algae or no cyano in same water then the nutrients would be readable in test kits.

If it were only that simple. Inorganic N & P (not somehow bound by organics, bacteria, algae, or loosely bound to substrates) can be short lived even in systems that contain no algae or Cyano like organisms. This is the N & P that your test kit can read.

[CStrickland]

Originally Posted by malira

Can't Cyano, some other bacteria, and some corals use N & P that is not available to algae or test kits. Can't they process organic compounds containing N & P. I don't understand the process, but I thought that was the case.

I think cyano can find nitrogen from more sources than most of our nuisance algae, and therefore grow in tanks with low nitrates. Nitrogen fixing bacteria are an important part of lots of ecosystems, like in a garden they colonize the roots of beans and provide ammonia to nearby corn which needs it - Native Americans supposedly taught pilgrims to plant those together for this reason. I think of cyano as the last link in the nitrogen cycle that we usually talk about as ammo-trite-trate-gas because it can use the gas.

I think there's also a physical aspect, where the cyano mats trap nutrients like inorganic phos as they are released. Catching them before they hit the water. This explains its fondness for low flow areas.
I'm not sure whether it releases the phos directly or relies on a partner bacteria for that tho

[malira]

Originally Posted by CStrickland

I think cyano can find nitrogen from more sources than most of our nuisance algae, and therefore grow in tanks with low nitrates. Nitrogen fixing bacteria are an important part of lots of ecosystems, like in a garden they colonize the roots of beans and provide ammonia to nearby corn which needs it - Native Americans supposedly taught pilgrims to plant those together for this reason. I think of cyano as the last link in the nitrogen cycle that we usually talk about as ammo-trite-trate-gas because it can use the gas.

I think there's also a physical aspect, where the cyano mats trap nutrients like inorganic phos as they are released. Catching them before they hit the water. This explains its fondness for low flow areas.
I'm not sure whether it releases the phos directly or relies on a partner bacteria for that tho

In my tank I have green cyano where my goby does not go. I have sand stirrers on their way. So no issue there. No flow problems.

But in the sump there is red cyano. Definitely no flow problems. I have an extra pump and a new sump light and it hasn't slowed down. I'm getting ready to drain and scrub the sump to get out all red cyano. Also dry out and clean the rock see if that helps. It's even growing on the chaeto.

[Boom]

Originally Posted by malira

In my tank I have green cyano where my goby does not go. I have sand stirrers on their way. So no issue there. No flow problems.

But in the sump there is red cyano. Definitely no flow problems. I have an extra pump and a new sump light and it hasn't slowed down. I'm getting ready to drain and scrub the sump to get out all red cyano. Also dry out and clean the rock see if that helps. It's even growing on the chaeto.

That might be a local concentration/temperature issue rather than nutrient. Where do you introduce your freshwater top off? Dosing? Heater?

[malira]

Originally Posted by Boom

That might be a local concentration/temperature issue rather than nutrient. Where do you introduce your freshwater top off? Dosing? Heater?

I top off in sump, into filter sock, with kalk. Temp is around 81. Heat is in the return chamber of sump. The red cyano is in the main chamber with rocks, Chaeto and a bowl of sand.
I recently changed lights again to a reefbreeder 120 watt led. My son had it over his DT until he went to t5s. It seems to be getting rid of most of the cyano. I've had it on 24/7 for 4 days. When I turned it off for 12 hours the cyano started coming back.

[Boom]

OK. So you tried changing lighting, nutrients, and flow is no issue. Consider this: If you don't use an auto top off that adds water (and kalk) GRADUALLY, you may be creating a temporary local change in concentration enoughto compromise the beneficial bacteria that normally populate the area. The cyano can proliferate there with less competition...and repetition.
If you can siphon agood portion of the cyano, shake your chaeto into a separate bucket of TANK water
As we all know, "nothing good happens fast in a reef tank".

[Boom]

FWIW, Sk8r advocates adding Mg to stabilize CA and alk. I stopped dosing kalk, dose Mg (Epsom salt) instead and Ca rose to normal while lowering alk.

[malira]

Originally Posted by Boom

OK. So you tried changing lighting, nutrients, and flow is no issue. Consider this: If you don't use an auto top off that adds water (and kalk) GRADUALLY, you may be creating a temporary local change in concentration enoughto compromise the beneficial bacteria that normally populate the area. The cyano can proliferate there with less competition...and repetition.
If you can siphon agood portion of the cyano, shake your chaeto into a separate bucket of TANK water
As we all know, "nothing good happens fast in a reef tank".

I do have an ato. The cyano came back due to getting off bio-pellets and continued do to over feeding and under lighting. It's getting better since I added the led. Thanks for the insight.

[Boom]

Originally Posted by malira

I do have an ato. The cyano came back due to getting off bio-pellets and continued do to over feeding and under lighting. It's getting better since I added the led. Thanks for the insight.

Glad to hear it's getting better. I know cyano can be a pita. So many things can bring it on! The only common cause I've heard from others is, essentially, a significant change in the balance of the system. In my case I had too much Ca and alkalinity coming from my ato. Just like the OP postulated, when my alk went down, corals bounced back. The bonus was the cyano gone with no chemiclean.

[malira]

Originally Posted by Boom

Glad to hear it's getting better. I know cyano can be a pita. So many things can bring it on! The only common cause I've heard from others is, essentially, a significant change in the balance of the system. In my case I had too much Ca and alkalinity coming from my ato. Just like the OP postulated, when my alk went down, corals bounced back. The bonus was the cyano gone with no chemiclean.

I will do everything else except chemiclean or other product like that.

[Johnic]

Keep in mind that a lot of the phos we are trying to measure is probably locked up in the Rock and sand bed I would assume.

[las]

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