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Unread 10/15/2010, 05:53 PM   #1
windowlicker916
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Advice on establishing a small tank

Looking to getting my feet wet with a small reef tank.

My line of thinking is that I will need a quarantine tank anyhow so might as well start small and make less costlier mistakes on that.

My question is what do I need to effectively run a small tank?

All I see is people running sumps but I don't wish to do a sump setup for a small tank. I did see on CL someone selling a setup using a HOB filter and HOB skimmer.

Your feedback is appreciated!


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Unread 10/15/2010, 06:09 PM   #2
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An Aquapod 24g or bioCube 29g would be a great little tank to start with and could easily be used as quarantine tank if/when you upgrade. These are all-in-one tanks with built in filtration. Ther ate other options but would need to know your budget and intent for the tank - will it be for fish only?


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Unread 10/15/2010, 06:10 PM   #3
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how small are we talking here? IMO 20-30g is about as small as you go can and not have alot of issues.


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Unread 10/15/2010, 08:24 PM   #4
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Keep in mind that smaller doesn't always mean less problems or cost. You have less room for error the smaller you go.


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Unread 10/15/2010, 08:28 PM   #5
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The above post is very true. But, it does make it easier to do weekly water changes due to the volume, helping to keep the water clean, and the appropriate levels of various elements etc. in check.

This may sound like a cheat, but MicroBacter 7 works great at the start of smaller tanks.


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Unread 10/15/2010, 09:06 PM   #6
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smaller is more challenging imo. you don't have the extra water volume and biological filtration to count on.


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Unread 10/15/2010, 09:54 PM   #7
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Yeah, if you think you're going to go bigger, I'd go for that first. You can reduce your risk by doing research for a long(er) time first, and by being careful about what livestock you add. Don't skimp on a skimmer or on pumps, and be sure to understand power budget before you start buying things. If you go over about 10 amps, you'll need more than one circuit. Efficient pumps can result in huge energy bill savings.


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Unread 10/16/2010, 02:18 AM   #8
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Great advice from above, but if you did want to do a cheap setup to get your feet wet and make sure that things were good, one of my friends gave me a 20 gallon long tank that had about 3 inches of crushed coral over and under gravel filter, with a powerhead that sucked the crap into the gravel, and he kept a damsel in it to keep it cycling...and used it as quarantine. He had PC lights on it, but when he gave it to me, I just used a fluorescent bulb. So this tank with such a low bioload didn't have any issues and when we would quarantine stuff, we would just do a waterchange...and since it's only 20 gallons, it wasn't very much water. It would be cheap to do something similar to kinda see if you like it...and then when you get a better setup, you can use that as your quarantine.


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Unread 10/16/2010, 09:17 AM   #9
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a bit of info please

i am also going to get my feet wet with a 20 gallon long 30"x12"x 12". it will a frag tank, hang on filter, live rock, tray of sand,koralia 1, egg crete stand for frags.
my issue i have is as to what kind of lighting. do not want to dump a bunch of money on lighting. can a desk top reading lamp work(50watt halogen).what about a hang with 75 watt grow bulb.
pm. let me know


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Unread 10/16/2010, 10:41 AM   #10
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I really don't get all the discouragement when it comes to someone wanting to set up a small tank. There are downfalls. Yes. One being, less room for mistakes. When something goes wrong in a small system, it happens very quickly. You do have to stay on top of things, but in my opinion and experience, it's really not painstaking as some people make it out to be.
My first reef tank was a 2.5 gallon pico. A very succesful one at that. it consisted of the tank, an Aqauclear20 hob filter with live rock rubble, and a standard incandescent fixture with a screw in pc 50/50 bulb. I had that tank running for a year and a half before I upgraded to a 46 gallon. I could only have softies in that tank....but maintenance was a breeze. I topped off with a litte ro/di everyday and did a half gallon water change once a week.
I've had more luck with smaller tanks than larger. I find the larger ones far more labor intensive and definately less expensive, to be honest. But this is my opinion.
As far as keeping it cheap.....that really isn't an option. But you can keep cost down by buying used equiptment rather that new.
I agree with KMP about the aquapod 24 or Oceanic Biocube 29 gal all in one system. It's almost everything you need except for rock, sand, and water. I'd suggest one power head as well for more flow. Generally those come with PC lights and you can keep a wide variety of softies and lps in them. I think the Biocube has an option for an HQI hood as well, so you could keep sps too. Oceanic also has an air driven skimmer that fits in the back chamber of the cube. It's not the best but it actually works pretty well IMO.
And again, as KMP said, when you're ready to upgrade, this makes a really good QT tank.

Leadsinker, your lighting options aren't really sufficient for corals. If you want LPS and softies, you might want to consider at least a 2 x 65watt PC fixture. SPS you would at least want T5's if not MH. Don't skimp on lighting. As for your set up, that might be something I would consider a very temporary holding tank. And might not be tremendously succesful long term.

I, personally have been more succesful with smaller tanks. I have a 110 gal now that I haven't had a whole lot of luck with and I attribute that to the larger water changes...more glass to clean...cost to maintain. I just get overwhelmed with the amount of work involved. But that's just me.


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Unread 10/16/2010, 11:18 AM   #11
windowlicker916
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everyone is saying the opposite

I understand that a smaller tank is harder to manage but my thinking is it will require more of my attention and learning annif something dies it's not a whole large tank of things dying which cost a lot more.

just found an aquapod 12g with everything including sand, rock, anemone, clown fish for 100. tenpting


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Unread 10/16/2010, 11:51 AM   #12
windowlicker916
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these aquapods don't ay they come with a skimmer. how do they stay clean?


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Unread 10/16/2010, 12:04 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windowlicker916 View Post
everyone is saying the opposite
Ask everyone if they've ever had a small tank? And if they have, was it their first tank (still learning what reefing is all about)? I started with small tanks - have had large tanks - and size didn't pose any more challenges than the other. You can never get away from the fundamental argument that less water volume affords the opportunity for parameters to go out of whack quicker; however, if you do regular water changes (4-5g vs. 10, 20, ?) you can avert the 'caution' (just or unjust) everyone protrays.

Again, more to consider than water volume alone. Are you just looking for a fish only tank? Do you want fish and softies? Fish, softies, lps? If so, small is fine (providing you don't want big fish or fish that need space). If you want sps then yes, if you are a beginner you probably want to avoid a small tank. And if you do want sps and you are a beginner we'd mist likely discourage this initially regardless of tank size.


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Unread 10/16/2010, 12:15 PM   #14
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An all in one system (aquapod, biocube, nano cube - there are others) usually don't come with skimmers. They do; however have aftermarket skimmers that you can upgrade to if you desire. All have either 2 or 3 chambers (behind your display area). Filtration usually involves a sponge and bioballs. Just about everyone tosses the bioballs in favor of live rock rubble. And folks usually convert one of the chambers into a refugium. There are lots of cool things you can do with these all in one systems. Best site for nanos is; nano_reef.com

All that said; any advice you get here is going to range from Volks Wagon to Ferraris. Hard to point you in the right direction; small or otherwise without knowing what you have to work with.


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Unread 10/16/2010, 12:33 PM   #15
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Here's another point to ponder - small tank - 1 fish; big tank - 10 fish. In either scenario the only thing that changed is water volume, but the increase of livestock pushes you to the same parameter boundaries. So unless you have better self control than most of us (not over stocking) then you haven't accomplished anything with more water volume.


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Unread 10/16/2010, 12:38 PM   #16
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what happens with these all in one systems in regards to not having a skimmer to remove the protein buildup?


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Unread 10/16/2010, 12:50 PM   #17
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Earlier you mentioned interest in something with a hang on filter - with hang on your pulling water up and in a filter that has a sponge or filter cloth, maybe carbon and some phosphate media. In an all in one - same concept but the water is cycling through a rear chamber vs up and out into the hang on filter.

With either you need to pull the sponge or filter regularly and rinse.


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Unread 10/16/2010, 12:51 PM   #18
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And as there are skimmers for all in ones there are also hang on skimmers.


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Unread 10/16/2010, 01:09 PM   #19
windowlicker916
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I understand there are HOB skimmers and you can 'upgrade' but what I am curious about is how does a salt tank function without a skimmer? they market it as a plug and go setup.

does the filters just catch the protein and that means you have to clean the sponges regularly?


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Unread 10/16/2010, 01:10 PM   #20
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If I was to go with a small tank (under 30 gallons), I would consider going skimmerless but do water changes more frequently or bigger volume of water change.

Minh


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Unread 10/16/2010, 01:19 PM   #21
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Yes - yuo have to clean the sponges regularly, just as you would a skimmer cup. Frequency would be the same - difference is the skimmer extracted the poo out of water. There was a day when skimmers didn't exist and filter sponges or cloth was used for salt water tanks regardless of size.


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Unread 10/16/2010, 01:54 PM   #22
windowlicker916
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cool.

thanks for all the feedback guys!

think I will start small and used so I can get my feet wet while I plan out my large tank


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Unread 10/16/2010, 03:13 PM   #23
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I believe that fish poo is primarily consumed by the beneficial bacteria regardless of how good your skimmer is. The filters are only going to get so much of it. I've run skimmerless for weeks before with no impact to parameters. I increased my water change frequency a bit while my skimmer was down. Note that I have a huge system.

I'm still trying to figure out if I have 10 fish in the display tank.. I think 3 small ones and 6 big ones. Then another 7 or 8 in the support system..

I'd do more research before buying anything. We bought without knowing what we were buying and wasted a lot of money.


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Unread 10/16/2010, 04:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonMidtownStomp View Post
I'd do more research before buying anything. We bought without knowing what we were buying and wasted a lot of money.
great piece of advice that will save you hundreds if not a thousand dollars in $$, time and stress. the learning pains will cost you more than doing it the right way from the beginning..

if you know anybody in person that can walk you through how the reef system works that would help you tremendously. maybe they can show you their tank so you can see what your getting into. it's hard getting advice over the net since there are so many different views on how to skin a cat or in this case how to build your reef system.

i really hate all in one tanks, the back chamber takes up a tremendous amount of space and in all honesty, i think its just a waste of space. i had a 25g solana for a year and i hated it. i had no room to add stuff w/o taking something away.. the tank system to set up costed me $1200, i could have easily built a custom nano w/ a overflow, sump, skimmer instead of that piece of crap. maybe some of the reefers locally can show you their setups and give you the pros and cons in person. it really helps to see it for yourself.


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Unread 10/16/2010, 04:48 PM   #25
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sam - isn't the salona (tank/stand/light) $700 new? what did the other $500 go towards?


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