Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[DiscusHeckel]

Originally Posted by codydemmel4

but I want a clean looking sand bed haha or should I say cleaner looking

Cody, I strongly recommend orange lipped conches for that purpose. Despite not having much sand bed, I have three conches in my tank. They keep my sand bed very clean.

[reefmutt]

Yes trochus snails!
The classic sand star is also good for moving sand. I have 3 or 4..

Bulent, I'm not familiar with those conches, do you have a pic? I'm curious..
What do they eat?

[fishguy597]

Don't sand sifting starfish and conches eat the benifical life in the sand bed?

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by fishguy597

Don't sand sifting starfish and conches eat the benifical life in the sand bed?

Really not sure... I think you'd have to define beneficial life. Do you mean worms and other little sand critters or bacteria?
My sand bed in my tank is really only for show. I don't really count on any life in it to benefit my system.
I guess if I had a dsb, I wouldn't add these guys to it.. I'm sure they'd disturb any worms etc but even in a dsb, the denitrification only happens in the lower levels of the sand and I don't think they'd get that deep.
Not sure how far conches burrow. I don't think sand stars go that deep..

[watchguy123]

Sand beds and critters to keep them clean seems to fall into that hazy category full of conjecture. I have had sand sifting gobies over the years and found that I couldn't keep them alive long term. They seemed to strip the sand bed of whatever they needed. I have "heard" that sand sifting stars also will literally eat themselves out of house and home. So in my tank, I utilize conches which seem to clean the surface of the sand and not really more than that.

Shallow or deep sand bed, stuff lives there and I have always assumed most of it is probably beneficial. So primarily out of ignorance, I don't use sand sifting stars just conches.

[bif24701]

Originally Posted by codydemmel4

Thats great. I was feeding my fish something similar but with the algae I have now (hair and turf) obviously my tank cannot keep up. It makes sense yours can since you have very large colonies and I am sure they help with that.



What is your CUC? Mine is pretty non exisiting with maybe 5 snails and 2 hermits. I would love to keep feeding a lot but also have more nutrient export as I feel the corals would like this strategy more then try to starve out the algae.

I have had good results with both LC and GFO. However recently I've gone back to BSR High Capacity GFO and I mix it with my ROX carbon. In a 2:1 carbon to GFO ratio I mix it up and fill the last chamber of my BRS Dual reactor, the first chamber is loosely filled with a roll of 100% polyester filler (stuff you get in a hobby store for making blankets). The purpose of the filler is too filter out the larger particles before clogging up the carbon GFO mix. It's very effective. I run this about every 2-4 weeks. Along with 35% water changes every 1-3 weeks and a 40 gallon refugium keeps my numbers ideal.


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[gregkn73]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

the denitrification only happens in the lower levels of the sand ..

Matt are you sure about that? I have red in different sources, that is exactly the opposite! Denitrification occur even under bacterial densely mat's, and deep down in the sand beds ,really nothing happens...

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by watchguy123

Sand beds and critters to keep them clean seems to fall into that hazy category full of conjecture. I have had sand sifting gobies over the years and found that I couldn't keep them alive long term. They seemed to strip the sand bed of whatever they needed. I have "heard" that sand sifting stars also will literally eat themselves out of house and home. So in my tank, I utilize conches which seem to clean the surface of the sand and not really more than that.

Shallow or deep sand bed, stuff lives there and I have always assumed most of it is probably beneficial. So primarily out of ignorance, I don't use sand sifting stars just conches.

Originally Posted by gregkn73

Matt are you sure about that? I have red in different sources, that is exactly the opposite! Denitrification occur even under bacterial densely mat's, and deep down in the sand beds ,really nothing happens...

I think it depends a lot on depth and age of the sand. I take care of a 400 gallon reef with fish and some softies. It's had a few sand sifting stars for easily 3 years. There aren't as many as originally but the ones that are left seem to have enough sand and accumulated detritus to keep them happy. This bed isn't more than an inch thick on average. Higher in spots and lower in others. But the flounder, the red lobster and other fish move it around a fair bit.
I don't expect there to be 'beneficial' organisms in it and therefore I clean it regularly. I do not believe it is deep enough to have any sustained denitrification.
My tank at home is similar. It has 3 sand stars. They are over 18 months old. They actually lived in my cheato fuge for several months (bare bottom) when I had arlequin shrimp to unsuccessfully deal with the astarinas. When the harlequins died, the stars went back. They are still there.
My orange spot goby eats pellets, flakes and frozen foods and then goes right back to sifting. He's been around for quite some time as well.
With 1/2 to 3/4 inch sand in my tank, I don't want necessarily to maintain beneficial organisms or denitrification. It's just for show..
Greg, I think a dsb is very dependant on depth, age and grain size as to how well and where denitrification happens..
A dsb will stratify for sure.. i have always seen the most macro life- pods and worms in the upper side, then once oxygen levels drop enough, denitrification will occur. This could be right to the bottom of the sand if it isn't too filled with silt and detritus, or too fine. Clearly deeper beds may have an inert zone lower down.. in really not sure..
I'm sure old beds will change in terms of where and how efficiently denitrification occurs.
I've seen old dsbs just stop denitrifying and I've seen some just cause n and p problems.
Clearly denitrification needs a certain lack of oxygen to occur. It won't happen at the surface that's for sure. At what depth it happens depends on many factors.
I used to be a big fan of dsbs. Used them in every system but recently (last few years) I have found that it is easier to get a handle on nutrients without one. Over a couple years, they seem to change significantly.
In the past, I never had any types of sand sifting animals in my dsbs. They were usually in the dark and undisturbed.. like Mark mentioned, adding animals to dsbs seemed to defeat the purpose..

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by bif24701

I have had good results with both LC and GFO. However recently I've gone back to BSR High Capacity GFO and I mix it with my ROX carbon. In a 2:1 carbon to GFO ratio I mix it up and fill the last chamber of my BRS Dual reactor, the first chamber is loosely filled with a roll of 100% polyester filler (stuff you get in a hobby store for making blankets). The purpose of the filler is too filter out the larger particles before clogging up the carbon GFO mix. It's very effective. I run this about every 2-4 weeks. Along with 35% water changes every 1-3 weeks and a 40 gallon refugium keeps my numbers ideal.


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This seems like a good method for low ish p numbers where p swings wouldn't be too bad.
With my p around .14-.18 using that method and using enough gfo to pull down p would really yo yo the numbers on my system. My p has ALWAYS been stubborn. And bounces back rapidly.
Ideally I'd like to use biological methods of lowering it or use LC regularly. I'd really LOVE my cheato to pull n down low enough that I have to dose some kno3. Hopefully this might help pull p down a bit further.

[bif24701]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

This seems like a good method for low ish p numbers where p swings wouldn't be too bad.

With my p around .14-.18 using that method and using enough gfo to pull down p would really yo yo the numbers on my system. My p has ALWAYS been stubborn. And bounces back rapidly.

Ideally I'd like to use biological methods of lowering it or use LC regularly. I'd really LOVE my cheato to pull n down low enough that I have to dose some kno3. Hopefully this might help pull p down a bit further.

My fuge does just that. Have been adding KNO3 for the last 4 months, try to keep it 4-8ppm. I don't think adding just a little HC GFO to your carbon would create such a yo-yo effect. It's high capacity means it keeps pulling out PO4 longer, but using a little can help prevent sudden drops.

How large is your fuge and lighting?


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[vuqchu]

Wow...full tank shot looking amazing!

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by vuqchu

Wow...full tank shot looking amazing!

Thanks! It's getting there..

Originally Posted by bif24701

My fuge does just that. Have been adding KNO3 for the last 4 months, try to keep it 4-8ppm. I don't think adding just a little HC GFO to your carbon would create such a yo-yo effect. It's high capacity means it keeps pulling out PO4 longer, but using a little can help prevent sudden drops.

How large is your fuge and lighting?


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When I use a small amount of gfo nothing happens to my p.. carbon I like to use more passively, anyways.
Originally, my cheato took my nitrates from around 50 down to below 1. P moved from .18 to .1. Hen I shortened the photoperiod when I was away and had someone add kno3 while I was away. Went back up to around 10 and p to .17. Since home, I've added the hours back to the photoperiod and n is creeping back to below2ppm. Once it gets below 1 again, I'll try some kno3... again..
I overreacted last time.. I didn't want to leave in vacation amd come home to a stripped tank..
Here's a pic of my cheato fuge.

The cheato is about 20-24 inches across.
Lights are 2x 24 w t5, 8 w led strip in the middle and a 24w cfl in the aluminum reflector.
2x pink bulbs, two blue/full spectrum for t5
Warm white leds
White cfl..
Photoperiod is about 13-14 hours
So far it grows like a weed and is nice and rich green
I know there are all sorts of led grow lights out there but I had this stuff in storage (free) and frankly, when the water is right for cheato, the light source is pretty unimportant.. to a point obviously but really as long as it is bright, the cheato will grow imo..

[codydemmel4]

wow the cheato really is working for you, thats good to see!

Is that an urchin you have in there? It doesnt eat the cheato at all? I was thinking of adding one into my sump to help control the other algae in the sump but was worried it would eat the cheato

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by codydemmel4

wow the cheato really is working for you, thats good to see!

Is that an urchin you have in there? It doesnt eat the cheato at all? I was thinking of adding one into my sump to help control the other algae in the sump but was worried it would eat the cheato

The cheato has had an extreme dramatic effect on nutrients, no question. Well, no3 anyways..
Yes, a monster long spine urchin. I think he eats some. Actually I hope he does.. I like the idea of him recycling some cheato back into the system..
But he can not even come close to competing with the rapid growth. I have to pull cheato out every week or two..
He has been in there for at least 6 months. I pulled him out of a client's tank and he is now so big, I can't put him anywhere.
He definitely keep the sump clean as well..

So since this is a new page.. I have a couple macro shots I took quickly through the glass yesterday..

Habanero:

Ultimate pacman:

Pink matrix:

Fiji hyacinthus (?)

Unknown rescue coral.. two inches off the bottom

Same coral with suharsonoi:

Furiosa:

JF Flame:

[bif24701]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Thanks! It's getting there..


When I use a small amount of gfo nothing happens to my p.. carbon I like to use more passively, anyways.
Originally, my cheato took my nitrates from around 50 down to below 1. P moved from .18 to .1. Hen I shortened the photoperiod when I was away and had someone add kno3 while I was away. Went back up to around 10 and p to .17. Since home, I've added the hours back to the photoperiod and n is creeping back to below2ppm. Once it gets below 1 again, I'll try some kno3... again..
I overreacted last time.. I didn't want to leave in vacation amd come home to a stripped tank..
Here's a pic of my cheato fuge.

The cheato is about 20-24 inches across.
Lights are 2x 24 w t5, 8 w led strip in the middle and a 24w cfl in the aluminum reflector.
2x pink bulbs, two blue/full spectrum for t5
Warm white leds
White cfl..
Photoperiod is about 13-14 hours
So far it grows like a weed and is nice and rich green
I know there are all sorts of led grow lights out there but I had this stuff in storage (free) and frankly, when the water is right for cheato, the light source is pretty unimportant.. to a point obviously but really as long as it is bright, the cheato will grow imo..

T5s are great lights for cheato and I've used CFLs for 8 years prior to me getting the grow light.

That's a really good size fuge, cheato looks vibrant. Must grow vigorously in that setup. If you can bring them down with cheato that's awesome, it's the end game even if it takes a few weeks or even months.

I started off with a Miracle Mud fuge and a ETSS (skimmer). Seems some thing come and go but as time passes and we learn more about reefing some good things like refugiums stay. Since the BRS videos on cheato I have seen a dramatic increase in discussion and implementation of refugiums. I've always had one, though not this large compared to the system volume, and have great success with them.



This was just 3 weeks of growth, filled a 5 gallon bucket.


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[DiscusHeckel]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Bulent, I'm not familiar with those conches, do you have a pic? I'm curious..
What do they eat?

Hi Matt,

Here are some pictures of my conches. They seem to feed mainly on algae and diatoms. With their "hose pipe" they constantly forage "things" on sand bed, rocks and even on glass. They are active mainly at nights and burry themselves into sand (half way) during light hours. One of them is active all the time.

[markalot]

Hi Matt, I missed a month of updates. Beautiful pictures, I am super jealous of all the variety you have. Good luck with walt disney.

[gregkn73]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

carbon I like to use more passively, anyways.

Matt your last set of photos are amazing.

Can you give more details why you dislike the usage of carbon in a reactor?

[FloformAustria]

Matt the last coral pictures are epic!!

The chaeto is a bit much I would say

Brstv made a Little study on chaeto and what light to use... really interesting

Keep those pictures coming

Cheers

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by bif24701

T5s are great lights for cheato and I've used CFLs for 8 years prior to me getting the grow light.

That's a really good size fuge, cheato looks vibrant. Must grow vigorously in that setup. If you can bring them down with cheato that's awesome, it's the end game even if it takes a few weeks or even months.

I started off with a Miracle Mud fuge and a ETSS (skimmer). Seems some thing come and go but as time passes and we learn more about reefing some good things like refugiums stay. Since the BRS videos on cheato I have seen a dramatic increase in discussion and implementation of refugiums. I've always had one, though not this large compared to the system volume, and have great success with them.



This was just 3 weeks of growth, filled a 5 gallon bucket.


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Oh yeah baby, that's good growth!
I've always used refigiums as well.. I do, however take care of an sps tank that uses only live rock, some bio media and a lite carbon source and it is goibg very well.. not nearly the same bioload as my system however.
That's what makes this hobby/science so cool- hat there are old and new methods that can all work just as well when properly implemented.

Originally Posted by DiscusHeckel

Hi Matt,

Here are some pictures of my conches. They seem to feed mainly on algae and diatoms. With their "hose pipe" they constantly forage "things" on sand bed, rocks and even on glass. They are active mainly at nights and burry themselves into sand (half way) during light hours. One of them is active all the time.

Thanks, Bulent. I will look into these cool little monsters.

Originally Posted by markalot

Hi Matt, I missed a month of updates. Beautiful pictures, I am super jealous of all the variety you have. Good luck with walt disney.

Thanks Mark. I'm going to go out and get myself an x ray machine, use it to photograph my Walt Disney and re name it Walt Disney's ghost!

Originally Posted by gregkn73

Matt your last set of photos are amazing.

Can you give more details why you dislike the usage of carbon in a reactor?

Hey Greg, thanks.
It is my understanding that carbon is highly active when just added. It absorbs some elements, terpines and other chemicals quite quickly and then is exhausted within a few days- especially when added to high flow. Perhaps this is wrong..
Because of this assumption, I have gotten into the habit of adding a bag of carbon to a slow moving area of the sump so that it doesn't pull anything too rapidly. After a week, I place it into an area of higher flow, for another week and then I toss it. It is easier than packing and re packing a media reactor and I assume has a slower impact on the chemistry of the tank.

Originally Posted by FloformAustria

Matt the last coral pictures are epic!!

The chaeto is a bit much I would say

Brstv made a Little study on chaeto and what light to use... really interesting

Keep those pictures coming

Cheers

Hey Flo, thanks!
Cheato is my new best friend!!
It has gotten my n done to around 1ppm and last check had p down to .11-.13.
I am hoping my next move is adding some kno3 to hold n and continue to reduce p.. we shall see!

[nemodan]

Hi Matt

Have you seen this BRS video ?... I am almost sure you did, but just in case....

https://youtu.be/kUFzzlwXOwI

As I have been having good algae growth with my 24 W hydroponic lights, I decided to replace the full spectrum reef light over the fuge with this one:

MAXSISUN Dimmable 300W LED Grow Light 12-band Full Spectrum Veg and Bloom Dimmers for Indoor Greenhouse Plants https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N45HUOJ..._dbZPzbRFXJATC

When installed I will update my thread with pictures.

Cheers
Daniel

[DiscusHeckel]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Thanks, Bulent. I will look into these cool little monsters.

You're welcome Matt. My little guys have just started their daily hoovering mission:

[Wrangy]

Strombus snails (or conch's for our non-inverted friends :P ) are one of my favourite reef inverts! I've always had and always will have them in my tank! Definitely a worthy addition

[Wally.B]

Matt,

After all the years that you've help me with encouragement and advice, I finally got my ostrich head out of my own Sand Bed, and discovered this thread.

What a wealth of information.

Been reading from the beginning over last couple of days. Really appreciate how you documented your journey which was a roller coaster at times.

Not even half way finished reading as I try to digest all the great information.
This thread is so great since it's not a typical "here is my perfect tank" WITHOUT a story and details how it got to that point.

You had troubles like many of us do, and you never gave up.

I couldn't help but to jump forward in this thread to peek at the present to see if the book has a good ending.

Amazing success. Your tank is Spectacular. Corals are out of this world.
A true inspiration to me that one can overcome the various setbacks that this challenging hobby throws at us, No matter how experienced we are.

Sure I'm green with Envy as many others have stated, but it's not a negative thing, it gives me courage and strength to continuing trying.

I'd give up on my SPS ONLY Tank if it were not for you.

Many Thanks. And keep inspiring us all.

Wally

[nemodan]

Nice words Wally !!!!

Daniel