Regular RO vs RO DI water?

[plancton]

My brother has a RO unit, it doesn't have the DI filter, instead it has a "coconut" filter for "better taste".

Is this water good enough for a reef tank or it would have a fair amount of phos and silicates?

[bertoni]

It's probably fine, but I'd look at a water report from the city (or whomever) to check for possible problems. Adding a DI cartridge should be easy, if need be.

[RobZilla04]

Use a TDS to test the resulting filtered water. They are cheap and easy.

[outy]

Originally Posted by plancton

Is this water good enough for a reef tank or it would have a fair amount of phos and silicates?

No.

Who knows what left, we don't nor could we, we don't have a clue what the actual TDS is.

Just add a DI, they are cheap compared to a tank full of algae

[pisanoal]

Originally Posted by outy

No.

Who knows what left, we don't nor could we, we don't have a clue what the actual TDS is.

Just add a DI, they are cheap compared to a tank full of algae

To say no is a bit misleading. Probably not would be a better answer.

Depends on what kind of reef, source water contaminant/mineral levels, the membrane itself and how often you plan on doing water changes. Some people get away with just distilled, or just RO, but the easiest way to go to make sure your input water is not causing issues is to make sure it has as close to nothing in it as you can get (ie 0 tds)

[outy]

Originally Posted by pisanoal

To say no is a bit misleading. Probably not would be a better answer.

No. Hell no.

When dealing with unknown water quality we always refer to RO/DI so we know we have quality water as a final product.


I have some of the best water quality there is or ever was, and I run a DI and have to replace media. My water comes out 0 from RO but DI resin still gets exhausted. I even use nuclear grade resin. [now]

If you want to grow coral you do it right, not half azzed

Just because the water is 0 does not mean it is good enough. Can it be used? any water can be used but there is no reason not to use DI when it is so cheap. Yeesh the salt is more expensive then a DI canister

[pisanoal]

Originally Posted by outy

No. Hell no.

When dealing with unknown water quality we always refer to RO/DI so we know we have quality water as a final product.


I have some of the best water quality there is or ever was, and I run a DI and have to replace media. My water comes out 0 from RO but DI resin still gets exhausted. I even use nuclear grade resin. [now]

If you want to grow coral you do it right, not half azzed

Just because the water is 0 does not mean it is good enough. Can it be used? any water can be used but there is no reason not to use DI when it is so cheap. Yeesh the salt is more expensive then a DI canister

I'm not even going to read your whole post.

Do I think we should use ultra pure water? "Hell" Yes. Which I think, by the way, I made very clear in my post.

What I objected to is your completely uninformed, unsupported absolute answer of "No".

The question was "is just RO water good enough for a reef tank?" The answer to that, again, is probably not. But it might be... Without knowing more information, you can't be certain of either answer. Period.


Again, to qualify my response, I'm objecting to your use of absolutes when you dont know the whole story. Yes I think we should use DI, but in some cases it may not be necessary. Recommended? yep. Necessary? Need more info.

Please try not to take as much offense to this post as it appears you did the last.

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[outy]

Originally Posted by pisanoal

But it might be... Without knowing more information, you can't be certain of either answer. Period.

You are wrong and it is inexperience talking here.

We know the water is so poor they need to run it through an RO just to drink the water.

[outy]

Originally Posted by pisanoal

Please try not to take as much offense to this post as it appears you did the last.

Sorry I dislike ignorance. Don't correct people when you are not educated on the topic.

example of said ignorance, from your quote below.

"is just RO water good enough for a reef tank?" The answer to that, again, is probably not. But it might be...

When is RO good enough that you would say no it does not need DI? the correct answer is NEVER because water conditions change. Your inexperience forgot about that though.

In OP's case we know he does not know the water quality in great detail and we know the water is ran through the RO for drinking which speaks volumes if you have worked in water development. Have you?

[hkgar]

If the water after RO contains nothing that would be detrimental to our reef tank than can we not all agree that it would be fine to use in our tank? If the water after RO has a TDS of 1 and that is magnesium than it is fine to use. Problem is we don not know what that 1 represents and therefore, yes the water could be fine, but probably not.

Now if you do have a reef tank and do not run your water through DI resin than you are playing Russian Roulette, my apologizes for offending the Russians.

[pisanoal]

Originally Posted by outy

You are wrong and it is inexperience talking here.

We know the water is so poor they need to run it through an RO just to drink the water.

No. We don't KNOW that, because he did not give us that information. YOU ASSUME that, like YOU ASSUME his RO output is not good enough for his reef tank even though you have 0 qualifying information outside of your own ASSUMPTIONS. Please tell me what his water contains. Oh, right... you don't know, because you don't even know what region of the country he is in, let alone whether he is on a well, or city water. Or if he is on city water, if that city water is from an aquifer or surface water. Heck, he might catch rain water off his roof, or use a solar still in the middle of the freakin, desert for all we know...

Just because HIS BROTHER had the RO unit for drinking water does not mean HIS BROTHER NEEDED said RO unit to drink the water. Lots of people have them because they think its healthier, or they like the taste better. By the way, did he say his brother lives next door? In the same state? In the same country? No he did not. Oops... another assumption on your part. So even IF his BROTHER needed the unit, which we have no qualifying information to say that he did, we don't even know that his brother is on the same water source as he is. Sure, we could ASSUME he is, but maybe he's weird and lives more then 5 minutes from his brother. Oh wait... turns out that's not weird at all. In fact quite common...

You say that you dislike ignorance, but you are so horribly ignorant of all of these facts that say whether or not the water source is GOOD ENOUGH. Not perfect, GOOD ENOUGH for his tank.

Originally Posted by outy

Sorry I dislike ignorance. Don't correct people when you are not educated on the topic.

example of said ignorance, from your quote below.





When is RO good enough that you would say no it does not need DI? the correct answer is NEVER because water conditions change. Your inexperience forgot about that though.

In OP's case we know he does not know the water quality in great detail and we know the water is ran through the RO for drinking which speaks volumes if you have worked in water development. Have you?

Actually yes... I'm a chemical engineer, I have worked on boilers utilizing a Reverse Osmosis unit and a demineralizing train with a degassifier and a mixed bed polishing unit feeding 1250 psi boilers that need absolutely pure water. The steam then went through a multistage turbine to reduce it down to different operating pressures, so again, absolutely pure water required.

Now I work on our waste water and drinking water treatment facilities and have both a drinking water and waste water treatment plant operating license.

So again, another ASSUMPTION you made out of ignorance. I am actually quite educated on the topic. So being educated, I will continue to stand by my statements...

And I didn't forget about anything. Certainly didn't forget that I'm not the only one on here that is educated on this topic. In fact, here is another one who is very educated on both reef tanks and water quality/chemistry. You might have heard of him, he's kind of a big deal around here...

Originally Posted by bertoni

It's probably fine, but I'd look at a water report from the city (or whomever) to check for possible problems. Adding a DI cartridge should be easy, if need be.

I believe this is farther from your stance even then mine. Notice he states the need for more information before making a final decision. THAT is an educated post.

[outy]

Originally Posted by hkgar

If the water after RO contains nothing that would be detrimental to our reef tank than can we not all agree that it would be fine to use in our tank? .

Ill ask you a question. When in the real world would you recommend someone not use a DI??? knowing water conditions change often seasonally.

I have water that starts at 27 TDS, leaves 2 X RO at 0 and I would never recommend to anyone my water is fine to use without going through DI despite the 0 rating.

0 TDS means little here, I still recommend DI, and funny if you said my water is fine at 0, then my DI resin should last indefinitely, it does not. [less shelf life]

So my point is, there is always doubt, and when using DI we know we did all we could before using said water.

It is so cheap and easy to get, the is no real world application in our hobby where we would ever not recommend its use, at any time regardless of any excuses.

[pisanoal]

Originally Posted by hkgar

If the water after RO contains nothing that would be detrimental to our reef tank than can we not all agree that it would be fine to use in our tank? If the water after RO has a TDS of 1 and that is magnesium than it is fine to use. Problem is we don not know what that 1 represents and therefore, yes the water could be fine, but probably not.

Now if you do have a reef tank and do not run your water through DI resin than you are playing Russian Roulette, my apologizes for offending the Russians.

My exact stance by another very experienced member.

We could do ICP testing and know what that 1 TDS is, personally, Id through DI on it and never wonder.

[pisanoal]

Originally Posted by outy

Ill ask you a question. When in the real world would you recommend someone not use a DI??? knowing water conditions change often seasonally.

I have water that starts at 27 TDS, leaves 2 X RO at 0 and I would never recommend to anyone my water is fine to use without going through DI despite the 0 rating.

0 TDS means little here, I still recommend DI, and funny if you said my water is fine at 0, then my DI resin should last indefinitely, it does not. [less shelf life]

So my point is, there is always doubt, and when using DI we know we did all we could before using said water.

It is so cheap and easy to get, the is no real world application in our hobby where we would ever not recommend its use, at any time regardless of any excuses.

Not all water sources change seasonally (ie deep aquifers). But since you hate ignorance, you already knew that. And somehow, in spite of your experience, you just forgot that.

Also in deep aquifers, particularly in limestone, there tends to be lots of dissolved CO2, which your education has taught you consumes DI really fast, meaning it can be quite expensive. Also in deep aquifers, water quality tends to be quite good. Meaning, you could have water free of, or low enough on harmful contaminants that you might be able to stick a 99% rejection membrane on, and get below detection limits on those harmful contaminants. And your experience also tells you some peoples definition of a reef tank is Kenya tree, zoas, mushrooms and zenia. Maybe their husbandry is really good too, and they do very regular water changes often. And they also have a glass top so evaporation is low. MY experience tells me that they aren't topping off as much therefore those contaminants aren't cycling up as much. Maybe they even stay below harmful levels. This would be a scenario I could see recommending someone only use RO, but only after knowing all the information.

I would not tell them there water is not good enough without knowing their entire situation, which by the way is pretty much the definition of ignorance.

Also, my girlfriends brother runs a tank like that with just distilled water, not RO/DI. He doesn't even do water changes that often. But that's not possible, he NEEDS RO/DI.

[outy]

Originally Posted by pisanoal

So being educated, I will continue to stand by my statements...

.

Then you should be able to answer a simple question.

When in the real world would you recommend someone not use a DI in this hobby ???

There is only one answer, never.

#1 water conditions often change
#2 the only way to know you have the best quality of water is to run it through a mixed bed of quality DI resin

No. We don't KNOW that, because he did not give us that information.

Wrong OP gave us enough clues to suggest a credible answer

he is from a third world country where more then half its people DO NOT receive water that is even drinking quality.

The challenges include water scarcity in the northern and central parts of the country; inadequate water service quality (drinking water quality; 55% of Mexicans receiving water only intermittently according to results of the 2000 census); poor technical and commercial efficiency of most utilities (with an average level of non-revenue water of 51% in 2003); an insufficient share of wastewater receiving treatment (36% in 2006); and still inadequate access in rural areas. In addition to on-going investments to expand access, the government has embarked on a large investment program to improve wastewater treatment.

In many areas, local water pressure is insufficient and/or unreliable. Thus, many houses have a small water tank known as a tinaco on their roofs. Water that accumulates in a basement cistern, known as an ajibe, is pumped up to it to provide pressure through gravity to the rest of the house regardless of pressure in the local system. In some newer homes, however, key appliances have their own pressure systems,[9]

I have family in Peru where this is also common, you don't drink the water and you don't put it in your reef aquarium either.

Lots of people have them because they think its healthier, or they like the taste better

People in Mexico are generally not using RO for personal preference, they are using it to survive.

he stated they are using the coconut filter for taste.


Common sense goes a long way here past your education.

[outy]

Originally Posted by pisanoal

Also in deep aquifers, .

Water quality changes from one to another. If an aquifer is even available in ones geographic area.

Good quality as you listed means possibly safe for drinking and it means nothing in comparison to the laboratory grade water we recommend.

Also you are being dishonest by not answering the question.

When would YOU ever not recommend a DI unit to a fellow reefer ? is there EVER a real world case where you would say Na! don't run one!

25 years, I have never said that.

[pisanoal]

Originally Posted by outy

Then you should be able to answer a simple question.

When in the real world would you recommend someone not use a DI in this hobby ???

There is only one answer, never.

#1 water conditions often change
#2 the only way to know you have the best quality of water is to run it through a mixed bed of quality DI resin



Wrong OP gave us enough clues to suggest a credible answer

he is from a third world country where more then half its people DO NOT receive water that is even drinking quality.

The challenges include water scarcity in the northern and central parts of the country; inadequate water service quality (drinking water quality; 55% of Mexicans receiving water only intermittently according to results of the 2000 census); poor technical and commercial efficiency of most utilities (with an average level of non-revenue water of 51% in 2003); an insufficient share of wastewater receiving treatment (36% in 2006); and still inadequate access in rural areas. In addition to on-going investments to expand access, the government has embarked on a large investment program to improve wastewater treatment.

In many areas, local water pressure is insufficient and/or unreliable. Thus, many houses have a small water tank known as a tinaco on their roofs. Water that accumulates in a basement cistern, known as an ajibe, is pumped up to it to provide pressure through gravity to the rest of the house regardless of pressure in the local system. In some newer homes, however, key appliances have their own pressure systems,[9]

I have family in Peru where this is also common, you don't drink the water and you don't put it in your reef aquarium either.




People in Mexico are generally not using RO for personal preference, they are using it to survive.

he stated they are using the coconut filter for taste.


Common sense goes a long way here past your education.

Yep, I missed his info under his name. I concede that, and its a good catch on your part. Too bad you didn't bring it up earlier otherwise you might be able to convince me the advice you gave was based on that. Besides you are still missing the point that not everyone in mexico is in that situation, a fact that you yourself brought up.


Your all encompassing statement is still wrong. Most absolutes are wrong, because there is usually a situation that refutes it. Replace him with anyone else, living anywhere else, and you have made it clear your answer doesn't change. That's why you're wrong.

And I use carbon to filter my water for taste. Doesn't mean a darn thing other than I don't like to taste chlorine in my water. Doesn't mean I have lots of nasty contaminants.

Also
#1 water conditions often change

Not necessarily true, as I stated in my last post.


#2 the only way to know you have the best quality of water is to run it through a mixed bed of quality DI resin

Also not true. You could distill it, and then run it through carbon and RO. Would be pretty darn close, and a lot of times better then what we get out of our hobby grade units, albeit expensive and time consuming. You could also run it through Cation resin, then anion resin. Yes splitting hairs on that last one, but just proving my point on absolutes...

Here's the deal dude. I really agree with you in 99% of the cases. But absolutes are rarely that right way to answer a question... There is usually something that makes every case a little bit unique that might change what is necessary to complete the task...

[outy]

Originally Posted by pisanoal

Not all water sources change seasonally .

Some well water has a 10,000 year recharge, and other do have a 1000 year recharge rate.

Even so, often times a sanitary seal of 50' does not stop seasonal water contamination for public use and a 20' foot seal used for home use often does not hold seasonal water entry.

Well water is a poor example to use because it varies more so then public water. Some wells are poisonous/toxic to mixed with salt water, to the sweetest tasting water that can be.

yet none I would ever recommend to not go through DI sein before use in said hobby.

[pisanoal]

Originally Posted by outy

Water quality changes from one to another. If an aquifer is even available in ones geographic area.

Good quality as you listed means possibly safe for drinking and it means nothing in comparison to the laboratory grade water we recommend.

Also you are being dishonest by not answering the question.

When would YOU ever not recommend a DI unit to a fellow reefer ? is there EVER a real world case where you would say Na! don't run one!

25 years, I have never said that.

I am not being dishonest... not at all. I gave you an example... Please reread...

And yes, water quality changes from one aquifer to another. But how often do you have to move wells? 50 years of operating this drinking water plant, Same well... hmmm, doesn't change that much! Quarterly data to prove it.

I know some people don't have access to that kind of water, which is proving my point. You need all the information before making an informed recommendation.

[pisanoal]

Originally Posted by outy

Some well water has a 10,000 year recharge, and other do have a 1000 year recharge rate.

Even so, often times a sanitary seal of 50' does not stop seasonal water contamination for public use and a 20' foot seal used for home use often does not hold seasonal water entry.

Well water is a poor example to use because it varies more so then public water. Some wells are poisonous/toxic to mixed with salt water, to the sweetest tasting water that can be.

yet none I would ever recommend to not go through DI sein before use in said hobby.

Good gosh dude. We have wells that go a lot deeper than that. Its called a deepwell. Not all water sources are subject to surface contamination, and not all wells are poisonous. The fact that we use them all the time all over the country makes it a great example. Also the fact that some have a long recharge rate further supports my information that they don't change seasonally. We test our water often. Its required. Ours don't change seasonally.

Yet another example of an absolute failing you.

[outy]

Originally Posted by pisanoal

Too bad you didn't bring it up earlier otherwise you might be able to convince me the advice you gave was based on that
...

I should not have to.

point is, When would YOU ever not recommend a DI unit to a fellow reefer ?

When would you tell someone not to use $20 worth of insurance?

[hkgar]

Originally Posted by pisanoal

Also in deep aquifers, particularly in limestone, there tends to be lots of dissolved CO2, which your education has taught you consumes DI really fast, meaning it can be quite expensive.

Ah ya, those darn wells and DI.

I am on a well (and live on a golf course, so who knows what gets down to the the water table) and so water goes from my RO to a Brute storage and is de gassed for 24-48 hours than pumped through DI. Fourteen months versus 4 weeks of usable DI (that would be the in-line TDS meter reading 0).

[outy]

Originally Posted by pisanoal

We have wells that go a lot deeper than that. .

Non sequitur.

We are talking about water quality of ground water at the moment, which is more often then not, worse then tap water which generally has certain requirements. Ground water is often quality controlled not just by state standards but by county standards.

I know you would never "not" run well water through DI for your own tank, so why introduce a maybe?

Me personally, I like drinking good well water over treated tap water any day of the week.

Yes many states do have aquifers that remain stable, and not a one would I ever recommend not using a DI resin after RO.

[pisanoal]

Originally Posted by hkgar

Ah ya, those darn wells and DI.

I am on a well (and live on a golf course, so who knows what gets down to the the water table) and so water goes from my RO to a Brute storage and is de gassed for 24-48 hours than pumped through DI. Fourteen months versus 4 weeks of usable DI (that would be the in-line TDS meter reading 0).

Yeah I'm in a similar situation. On city water, but its drawn from a deep aquifer, its beneath clay so not much surface penetration. Same on the DI though, I run it through degas.

If someone didnt have that option due to space constraints, I could see running without DI in isolated circumstances.

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[pisanoal]

Originally Posted by outy

I should not have to.

point is, When would YOU ever not recommend a DI unit to a fellow reefer ?

When would you tell someone not to use $20 worth of insurance?

I'm done answering that question, I already did and pointed it out twice now.

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