Runaway Nitrate | Undetectable Phosphate

[callmesaul8889]

Hey guys, I'm going to try to keep this as short as possible...

IM Fusion 30L - bare bottom | ~25lbs rock
AquaMaxx HOB-1 - wet skimming
Vortech MP10 - 30% reef crest
AI Hydra52 - ~25% total power

Alkalinity: 9.3dKH
Calcium: 425ppm
Nitrite/Ammonia: 0ppm
pH: 7.9
Temp: 76.5 - 77.8

Stocking: 1 clownfish, 1 lyretail anthias, 1 royal gramma, 1 long nose hawkfish, 1 skunk cleaner shrimp, 1 fire shrimp, 1 harlequin shrimp(for eradicating an out-of-control asterina population), and a mix of SPS frags, LPS, and softies.

I do 5 gallon water changes weekly and feed daily with LRS Reef Frenzy while supplementing 2-3 times per week with coral frenzy, copepod max, and live phytoplankton.

Ok, now on the problem: I can't keep nitrate levels down and I can't keep phosphate levels up. For the longest time, any SPS I got would pale out over time and lose all color, once I realized seeing 0.00ppm on my Salifert phosphate kit was a BAD thing, I started to take recommendations on heavier feeding. I started feeding heavier about 8 months ago, but then I'd notice that (despite better color and PE on my SPS) the nitrate level would skyrocket. Even with elevated feeding and nitrate level, my phosphate kit continually reads 0.00ppm and SPS color is pale.

Over the past 8 months, I've tried (in addition to heavier feeding) chaeto, vodka dosing, N03P0X, and simply letting the nitrate level do its thing while observing phosphate at 0.00ppm. Chaeto dies in my tank, almost instantly. 48 hours is enough to notice significant die off and brown slime. N03P04X seemed like it was working until I started to get blooms of white slime all over my tank and no more nitrate reduction. Vodka dosing didn't do anything at all after 4.5 weeks and it was at that time that I was recommended N03P04X.

I've also tried directly dosing Brightwell NeoPhos to add a direct phosphorus source to the tank, but even a double dose does not show up in the phosphate tests after 24 hours.

In the past weekend, I've done multiple 50% water changes to try and 'force' the system to more natural parameters. After a 50% water change on Monday, I saw 7.5ppm nitrate and 0.00ppm phosphate; I dosed 2ml of NeoPhos. Tuesday, I saw ~13ppm nitrate and 0.00ppm phosphate. Wednesday, nitrate measured at ~18 ppm, so I did another 50% water change, which brought me right around 8ppm. I dosed 2ml of NeoPhos.

Today, I'm testing at ~18ppm nitrate and 0.00 phosphate and I think I'm going to lose my mind. I haven't fed anything, I have no dead animals, and my nitrate bounces back above 10ppm nightly while phosphate is stuck at 0.00ppm. I don't know what to do.

[bertoni]

Water changes typically don't help much with an ongoing nitrate problem. They can be useful if there were a catastrophic event that spiked the nitrate level, but that's about it.

25 lbs of live rock might not be enough to filter the fixed nitrogen going into the system. You could consider adding more live rock or an artificial equivalent, or some sort of denitrator like a coil reactor.

[callmesaul8889]

That's what lead me to try vodka dosing, chaeto, and N03P04X. I've been doing the water changes simply to keep the coral healthy in the mean time. I used to have about 35 lbs of live rock but I took some out on recommendation for getting better flow. My total water volume is approximately 25g. I will research denitrator reactors for nanos. They're not common on smaller tanks from what I can see.

[BigJohnny]

Before I offer advice which I have fully loaded and ready to go, I have a few questions:

1. Do you use tap water or RO/DI? (Have to ask) if RO/DI, when did you last change your filters/blocks/membranes?

2. What nitrate and phosphate test kits do you use, and have you verified results with a back up?

3. Did you know most sps will thrive with only .02-.04 ppm phosphate and may suffer with more?

[callmesaul8889]

Originally Posted by BigJohnny

1. Do you use tap water or RO/DI? (Have to ask) if RO/DI, when did you last change your filters/blocks/membranes?

Yes to RO/DI. TDS is currently 0.00 on all water I'm making. DI resin was changed a couple months ago. Filters 6 months, but they didn't seem too bad at the time even after a year. Nano tanks

Originally Posted by BigJohnny

2. What nitrate and phosphate test kits do you use, and have you verified results with a back up?

Salifert, not expired, confirmed with LFS.

Originally Posted by BigJohnny

3. Did you know most sps will thrive with only .02-.04 ppm phosphate and may suffer with more?

Absolutely. I've always thought minuscule phosphate was what SPS thrived on. For a while I was happy seeing 0.00ppm phosphate until any SPS I bought would get pale and stop growing after a few months. This is what lead me to suspect ULNS, so I started feeding more and watching N03 climb while P04 never changed.

I've had high P04 results before, but it was from a bad batch of salt.

[BigJohnny]

With the Salifert Phosphate test kit at low levels, a false negative reading may result unless you use a blank for comparison (test sample with no reagents). Comparing your test sample with a blank may allow you to detect faint color changes. Without the blank it can appear to be 0 even though there 0.03 to 0.08 ppm. I would strongly recommend a hanna Phosphorus ULR for more accurate low range testing of Phosphorus and phosphates.

It is possible you had enough phosphate initially and your sps were browning out for another reason. Which would mean your heavy feeding and subsequent nitrate problem/no3po4x usage was unnecessary. You said your lfs confirmed test results but they certainly don't confirm every test you make so it's not a reliable short or long term solution.

First thing i would do is confirm with a couple days of accurate testing that you truly have 0 detectable phosphate.

If you do, then your nitrate reducing bacteria isn't working as fast as whatever is removing your phosphate before you can test it. You can balance it out by working on nitrate reduction with bacterial additives/denitrator and feed even more (could try phosphate preservative packed food)

Or

Stop no3po4x/vodka and resume normal feeding to get back to square 1, then retest phosphate. It's possible that combo isn't right for your situation and that you had enough phosphate initially.

Just my opinion

[callmesaul8889]

Originally Posted by BigJohnny

With the Salifert Phosphate test kit at low levels, a false negative reading may result unless you use a blank for comparison (test sample with no reagents). Comparing your test sample with a blank may allow you to detect faint color changes. Without the blank it can appear to be 0 even though there 0.03 to 0.08 ppm. I would strongly recommend a hanna Phosphorus ULR for more accurate low range testing of Phosphorus and phosphates.

It is possible you had enough phosphate initially and your sps were browning out for another reason. Which would mean your heavy feeding and subsequent nitrate problem/no3po4x usage was unnecessary. You said your lfs confirmed test results but they certainly don't confirm every test you make so it's not a reliable short or long term solution.

First thing i would do is confirm with a couple days of accurate testing that you truly have 0 detectable phosphate.

I think that's pretty fair advice. I will do 2 tests tonight, one blank, one with reagents. My test kit is set to expire in a few months, so I was going to replace it with the Hanna Phophorus ULR colorimeter when the time comes. I might invest in it sooner.

Isn't it still strange that heavy feeding plus dosing of NeoPhos still wouldn't produce detectable levels? From what I understand, most people have trouble controlling phosphate from climbing as where I can't even get a detectable double resolution reading or algae on my glass. Even when I was intentionally overfeeding my glass and rock was completely algae free. I use my mag scraper once every 3 weeks, if that.

[callmesaul8889]

Originally Posted by BigJohnny

First thing i would do is confirm with a couple days of accurate testing that you truly have 0 detectable phosphate.

Do you recommending feeding during these few days? Or dosing of phosphorus?

Originally Posted by BigJohnny

If you do, then your nitrate reducing bacteria isn't working as fast as whatever is removing your phosphate before you can test it. You can balance it out by working on nitrate reduction with bacterial additives/denitrator and feed even more (could try phosphate preservative packed food)

This was my strategy for the past 2-3 months. It didn't seem to work.

Originally Posted by BigJohnny

Or

Stop no3po4x/vodka and resume normal feeding to get back to square 1, then retest phosphate. It's possible that combo isn't right for your situation and that you had enough phosphate initially.

Just my opinion

This is what I'm attempting now. This weekend was when I decided to stop the heavy feeding/nopox/carbon dosing/bacteria correction/etc and tried to get back down to square 1.

[bertoni]

I'm not sure that dosing vodka or NOPOX can substitute for more live rock. The bacteria in question might need surface area to grow, for instance, although that's not clear to me. Chaetomorpha might work, but it could take a large volume to make a difference.

[callmesaul8889]

Originally Posted by bertoni

I'm not sure that dosing vodka or NOPOX can substitute for more live rock. The bacteria in question might need surface area to grow, for instance, although that's not clear to me. Chaetomorpha might work, but it could take a large volume to make a difference.

This tank originally started with 35lbs of live rock. There was so much that flow was a concern, even with the MP10. I removed ~10lbs of non-porous rock on recommendation by a friend who has kept many successful tanks. I'm not opposed to adding more rock, but I'm not sure that's the main issue here. Also, the tank is a 30L, but it's an all in one. So the main display is really only about 18 gallons if I'm estimating correctly.

My params as of today:

N03: 25ppm (+7ppm)
P04: 0.00ppm (+0.00ppm)
Calc: 420ppm
Alk: 8.6dKh
Mag: 1275ppm

I fed a pinch of coral frenzy this morning and dosed 2ml of NeoPhos (twice the recommended dose) last night. I took a pic of my phosphate test results to show that I'm not crazy. Left is with reagent and right is without. I can't tell a bit of difference between the two.

http://imgur.com/a/GOuJY

[BigJohnny]

Originally Posted by callmesaul8889

Do you recommending feeding during these few days? Or dosing of phosphorus?

I would just feed normally and test with Hanna Phosphorus ULR for several days. It tests for more than standard phosphate like standard test kits and is much more accurate. Your test kit could also be bunk.

Originally Posted by callmesaul8889

This is what I'm attempting now. This weekend was when I decided to stop the heavy feeding/nopox/carbon dosing/bacteria correction/etc and tried to get back down to square 1.

Ok. Obviously will take some time to revert back to normal natural conditions. Give it some time and continue testing with Hanna ulr.

[BigJohnny]

Originally Posted by callmesaul8889

I My test kit is set to expire in a few months, so I was going to replace it with the Hanna Phophorus ULR colorimeter when the time comes. I might invest in it sooner.

You should it's not that expensive and reagents packs are cheap

Originally Posted by callmesaul8889

Isn't it still strange that heavy feeding plus dosing of NeoPhos still wouldn't produce detectable levels?

I am unfamiliar with NeoPhos however if it is pure Phosphorus your test kit wouldn't pick it up immediately as you have a phosphate test kit. The hanna Phosphorus ULR would. It's not that strange if you have great nutrient export whether it's from bacteria/skimming/watever. I also dont know what you consider heavy feeding or what food your using. Are you using a food that doesn't use phosphate preservatives?

Originally Posted by callmesaul8889

From what I understand, most people have trouble controlling phosphate from climbing as where I can't even get a detectable double resolution reading or algae on my glass. Even when I was intentionally overfeeding my glass and rock was completely algae free. I use my mag scraper once every 3 weeks, if that.

I can't comment on most people but what I can say is that I have never had an issue with phosphate and I only use a very small amount of gfo. I used to have a fish only system that was heavily stocked before my last reef tank and current reef tank which is just getting going. Used dry rock dry sand which supposedly "leach phosphate" and never had an issue. Always used Hanna ULR and had about .02 -.04 ppm phosphate equivalent.

Phosphate should not be an issue with healthy bacteria population, proper feeding/maintenence/water changes, and a good skimmer. Most people who have problems have them because they are lacking in one or more areas. Until you have been off no3po4x for a while, you can't really judge accurately how much phosphate enters your system.

Do you have a lot of Coralline?

[BigJohnny]

One thing I forgot to mention is that it is possible your rock and sand are binding all the phosphate and not releasing it back into the water column. This could reach an equilibrium at some point, which would lead to decreased/zero binding and more phosphate in your water column without changing anything.

Many mistake this with rocks "leaching phosphate", when in reality they/the tank has been adding the phosphate either through heavy feeding/poor nutrient export/maintenence. In my research most people who claim their rocks leached phosphate had bad husbandry leading up to it.

Here's an interesting read on phosphate:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/9/chemistry

[BigJohnny]

Here's another:

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/phosphate-cycle

Just for some knowledge

Hopefully I didn't just complicate things further.....

[callmesaul8889]

Thanks for all the information, it really does help. I did start this tank 2 years ago with all dry rock and a little bit of live rock to seed. I started with sand, but ended up sucking it all out and going bare bottom.

More recently (Aprilish), I decided to redo my rock work. I ended up splitting a bunch of rock with a crow bar and hammer. Since then I've seen a lot of fine particulate come out of the center of the base rock when I blast it with water. From what you're saying, it's possible that my dry rock has simply absorbed phosphate until it's at an undetectable level.

I've noticed that my rock doesn't have very much life on it, which seems strange after 2 years. I've contemplated adding/swapping with live rock from an established system. Assuming the rock stays wet during transport, that shouldn't cause a mini cycle, right?

I think you're right about the phosphorus/phosphate test kit issue. It makes sense that adding phosphorus wouldn't be detected on a phosphate test kit. I have a Hanna ULR being delivered today.

One thing I forgot to mention is that NO3PO4X dosing caused a type of white slime bacteria to grow in my tank. It's receded a lot, but it hasn't completely gone. This weekend's water change will consist of a full cleaning of the inside walls of the overflow chambers and all pumps in an effort to rid the tank of that. Research on the matter brings up using Dr Tim's Waste Away to outcompete the slime bacteria, but I'd like to attempt to manually remove it before trying to regularly dose more bacteria.

I do have coraline, but it's pretty minimal. It builds up around the outer edges of the glass, but most of the time gets eaten by asterina starfish. These starfish began chomping on my zoas recently, so I picked up a harlequin to take care of them in the meantime.

[bertoni]

Any time live rock is moved, there's some risk of die-off, but short trips generally are fairly safe. You could try adding some fresh live rock or copepod, amphipod, or mysid cultures, along with other small animals. That might help, but that's far from sure.

[Ross33]

Surprised no one has brought up the bare bottom yet. I had similar issues with bare bottom for over a year I could not get any detectable nitrate or phosphate. I have since added a very shallow sand bed and nitrates and phosphates are still very low, but not detectable on a salifert test. I don't think it would hurt by adding some sand.

[callmesaul8889]

Originally Posted by Ross33

Surprised no one has brought up the bare bottom yet. I had similar issues with bare bottom for over a year I could not get any detectable nitrate or phosphate. I have since added a very shallow sand bed and nitrates and phosphates are still very low, but not detectable on a salifert test. I don't think it would hurt by adding some sand.

I definitely don't have issues with nitrate. From 6ppm on Monday to what appears to be over 25ppm today with only 2 tiny (and I mean tiny) feedings this week. My Hanna ULR meter didn't show up today so I'm not sure what my phosphate level is at, but I'd assume 0 as always. I'll have a reading on that tomorrow.

Is my bioload too heavy? I feel like any time I feed the nitrate level skyrockets. I'll have to do 2 50% water changes this weekend if I want to get it back down to where it was Monday. And I've even been changing about 3/4 gallons of water by sucking up all visible detritus a couple of times this week.

I will add sand as a last resort. I would love to scrap the back chambers and build a stand/sump and do a remote sand bed, but that might be more effort than getting a new setup. I think I'd want to try more rock before adding sand. I really hate sand.

Also, am I reading this test right? >25ppm?

[tmz]

Is it a 30L( 7.8 gallon tank) as noted or a 30 gallon?

Does it have a filter box in use? anything it? media,floss, bioballs,ceramic rings, etc.?

Are any chemical PO4 removal media in use, like GFO, chemipure elite, lanthanum chloride or phosguard?

Breaking up the rock could have contributed die off . It may also have opened some nucleation sites for calcium phosphate and calcium carbonate crystalization ,initially ;but .I doubt it would persist for 4 months of 0PO4 with the bioload.

NOPOX is just ehtanol (vodka) and acetic acid( vinegar) with a tint of mehtanol to keep it free of liquour taxes.btw.

Paling does occur when phosphate is deficient but it's hard to figure that as casual for your system given the relatively heavy feeding and the fish in play. I'd certainly verify the PO4 test result. Paling may be from other issues,such as light temperature, sg.

The hetertrophic bacteria encouraged by organic carbon dosing(vodka, vinegar, NOPOX et alia) take ammonia preferentially for nitrogen, in a one step autotrophic reaction thus reducing nitrate production from the usual ammonia oxidation process. they are facultative, when they exhaust free oxygen in an area they turn to nitrate for it reducing it to N ,some of which forms N2 notrogen gas which bubbles out of the tank. Often it takes months for a reduction in start up nitrate to occur. These bacteria also need phosphate and often reduce that more quickly than nitrate,IME.

[BigJohnny]

Originally Posted by Ross33

Surprised no one has brought up the bare bottom yet. I had similar issues with bare bottom for over a year I could not get any detectable nitrate or phosphate. I have since added a very shallow sand bed and nitrates and phosphates are still very low, but not detectable on a salifert test. I don't think it would hurt by adding some sand.

I don't think he ever mentioned the bare bottom until now, or if he did, I didn't notice. Definitely agree it would help.

[tmz]

I don't think sand will make much of a difference beyond adding some surface area for bacterial colonization and a place for detritus to settle and decay. New sand may take up some PO4 for a time as well.If you like it there's nothing wrong with a sand bed it but denitrification can occur in very shallow areas even in bacerial mats.

[BigJohnny]

Originally Posted by callmesaul8889

I definitely don't have issues with nitrate. From 6ppm on Monday to what appears to be over 25ppm today with only 2 tiny (and I mean tiny) feedings this week. My Hanna ULR meter didn't show up today so I'm not sure what my phosphate level is at, but I'd assume 0 as always. I'll have a reading on that tomorrow.

Is my bioload too heavy? I feel like any time I feed the nitrate level skyrockets. I'll have to do 2 50% water changes this weekend if I want to get it back down to where it was Monday. And I've even been changing about 3/4 gallons of water by sucking up all visible detritus a couple of times this week.

I will add sand as a last resort. I would love to scrap the back chambers and build a stand/sump and do a remote sand bed, but that might be more effort than getting a new setup. I think I'd want to try more rock before adding sand. I really hate sand.

Also, am I reading this test right? >25ppm?

6 to 25 ppm with only 2 small feedings? Somethings not right here. What are you feeding, potassium nitrate haha? Yea its a small tank and you are slightly overstocked but I think something else is going on there. Possible Nitrate factory somewhere? What is your mechanical filtration made up of? I'm not gonna lie, pretty confused especially since you've been dosing no3po4x.

Maybe, correct me if I am wrong you carbon dosers out there, your skimmer isn't big or powerful enough to export all the bacteria that are consuming your nutrients. So basically, you have a ton of bacteria rapidly converting everything into Nitrate, but you are unable to get it out of the system as fast. So instead of a gradual conversion and export of nitrate, your getting a fast conversion and a back up? I dunno, just a thought.

[tmz]

No. the heterotrophic bacteria encouraged by organic carbon dosing do not produce nitrate.see post 19. they grab the N from ammonia. Chemoautotrophic ammonia oxidizing bacteria which perform the nitrifcation cycle do produce nitrate.

Skimming is important to export the bacteria and other organics. GAC helps too.

[BigJohnny]

Originally Posted by tmz

No. the heterotrophic bacteria encouraged by organic carbon dosing do not produce nitrate.see post 19. they grab the N from ammonia. Chemoautotrophic ammonia oxidizing bacteria which perform the nitrifcation cycle do produce nitrate.

Skimming is important to export the bacteria and other organics. GAC helps too.

Again, thanks for laying down that raw knowledge. OP, listen to this guy, he knows what he's talking about.

What's your take on all this tmz? Why can't he get any detectable phosphate? I am stumped.

[callmesaul8889]

Originally Posted by tmz

Is it a 30L( 7.8 gallon tank) as noted or a 30 gallon?

Does it have a filter box in use? anything it? media,floss, bioballs,ceramic rings, etc.?

Are any chemical PO4 removal media in use, like GFO, chemipure elite, lanthanum chloride or phosguard?

Breaking up the rock could have contributed die off . It may also have opened some nucleation sites for calcium phosphate and calcium carbonate crystalization ,initially ;but .I doubt it would persist for 4 months of 0PO4 with the bioload.

NOPOX is just ehtanol (vodka) and acetic acid( vinegar) with a tint of mehtanol to keep it free of liquour taxes.btw.

Paling does occur when phosphate is deficient but it's hard to figure that as casual for your system given the relatively heavy feeding and the fish in play. I'd certainly verify the PO4 test result. Paling may be from other issues,such as light temperature, sg.

The hetertrophic bacteria encouraged by organic carbon dosing(vodka, vinegar, NOPOX et alia) take ammonia preferentially for nitrogen, in a one step autotrophic reaction thus reducing nitrate production from the usual ammonia oxidation process. they are facultative, when they exhaust free oxygen in an area they turn to nitrate for it reducing it to N ,some of which forms N2 notrogen gas which bubbles out of the tank. Often it takes months for a reduction in start up nitrate to occur. These bacteria also need phosphate and often reduce that more quickly than nitrate,IME.

It's a 30 gallon long. 2 overflows on either side with only filter floss on top. One media box has a bag of carbon. Stock return pump. Aquamaxx HOB-1 skimmer.

I haven't used anything except chemi pure elite, chemi pure blue, and GFO. None of these have been in the system for at least 4 months. GFO was last used maybe a year ago when these inhabitants were in a Solana 34.

Paling initially started before carbon dosing and heavy feeding. For a long time, I maintained <5ppm nitrate and 0ppm phosphate with light bioload (1 clown) and feeding every other day.

I have completely stopped carbon dosing of all kinds since it seems like this white slime is feeding off of it like crazy, even at half doses. SPS look better, but I still have pale montis with little polyp extension.

That is my understanding of how carbon dosing works. From what I've read, this white slime bacteria can flourish if it out competes the beneficial bacteria were trying to feed with the carbon. Is that correct? Do I need to manually remove this slime before I can consider dosing again as a long term strategy?