Are My Critters Escaping or Being Eaten?

cjpitt80 · 09/18/2018, 11:21 AM

OK,
So in the last 5 days I've had some disappearances. Current livestock is 1 black molly (hold over from cycling) a pair of ocellaris clowns, a banggai cardinalfish, and a clean up crew with trochus, nassarius, cerith snails and few other snails. I also have a skunk cleaner shrimp a Fire red cherry shrimp, 2 nickel size emerald crabs and 2 quarter size emeralds. The tank is about 98% covered with only the back 2in or so open. One side has the overflow so even less surface area is exposed

Up until 3 days ago I also had a Coral Banded Shrimp for about 2 months. Thur morning he was there, Fri evening, gone. I've never seen anything act aggressively to him. The emeralds don't seem to bother him or anything for that matter, they just go around picking on the rocks all day. He's molted 2x since I've had him and the exoskeleton remains in the tank about a day and a half (same thing for the fire shrimp). If he was attacked, I would think I would have seen a claw or something, but NOTHING. Checked all around the floor, behind the tank...no sign of him.

Last night I added 2 more slightly smaller banggais to the tank (after spending 2 weeks in QT). All looked well. No aggression with the established guy, one of the smaller ones even seemed to pair up with the existing one. Woke up this morning and.....of course. Same thing. Completely disappeared into the abyss. No sign. No fins floating around. No skin. No dried up fish on the carpet. NOTHING. ONLY the 2 smaller ones I added. The original one is in there looking completely fine and normal.

What the heck is going on here? Obviously, there are only two possibilities. They're getting out, or getting eaten right? With the coral banded shrimp, I can only think it would be the emerald crabs get together and actually "hunted" him down? I've never witnessed this and I'm pretty sure that's not their behavior as they are scavengers and opportunistic feeders. The CBS looked fine last I saw him. Had grown back one of his claws to almost regular size. Even still I find it hard to believe they could completely consume the body with no trace in that short time. When any of the shrimp molt, the exoskeleton remains for a couple days. For the fish, ONLY the 2 new ones are gone? They both decided to jump out or were both eaten in a 8hr period? Again I see no bodies anywhere. Nothing. Ugh. FRUSTRATING. What do you guys think actualy happened?

Also for any newbies if you have diamond watchman goby COVER your tank COMPLETELY. Those guys def jump and will find any tiny hole at the top of your 10gal QT tank near the filter and jump out. Eventhough they'll act like they stay only on the bottom and you'll never see them swim higher than the bottom 1/3 of the tank, they'll jump. But they'll land on the carpet and you can easily see what happeed to the't ask me how I know this...

Smokey Stover · 09/18/2018, 11:55 AM

What kind of rock? Live rock might have a hitch hiker you haven't seen yet. Mantis?

cjpitt80 · 09/18/2018, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokey Stover

What kind of rock? Live rock might have a hitch hiker you haven't seen yet. Mantis?

I used the Carribsea Life Rock (fake purple fry stuff). No hitchhikers. The CBS was about 3in body length about 6in total with antennae. He wasn't a lil guy... That's what's puzzling, I don't think anything could take him out even if they tried to. I've seen the crabs completely ignore him. Anyone know how long they can live outside the tank? Maybe he crawled over to the kitchen and croaked? And of course, still no sign of the new banggais.... Man, this sucks

hkgar · 09/18/2018, 12:46 PM

Mantis would seem likely. It wouldn't hurt to set a trap. google soda bottle trap.

cjpitt80 · 09/18/2018, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkgar

Mantis would seem likely. It wouldn't hurt to set a trap. google soda bottle trap.

What's the smallest size mantis shrimp? Rather, what's the smallest that could take down a CBS? Also, it could completely consume it with no trace at all? No claws, no antenna, just disappeared. I googled it and I've certainly never seen anything like that in my tank and I don't have any broken shells from the other CUC. I'll do another super close check later to see if I see anything.

hkgar · 09/18/2018, 01:47 PM

I had one. Never saw it even with close inspection. Just kept missing thing, like you. Set the trap, next morning there it was. I don't know how much rock work you have, but these critters hide in the smallest places where they can't be seen. They attack by surprise, not stalking. They wait for the prey to come by.

lngbrdz · 09/18/2018, 02:05 PM

Ever think of checking the plumbing? Also if they died you would have ammonia spikes, correct?

hkgar · 09/18/2018, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lngbrdz

Ever think of checking the plumbing? Also if they died you would have ammonia spikes, correct?

Not if the tank was properly cycled with sufficient live rock to support the bioload.

lngbrdz · 09/18/2018, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkgar

Not if the tank was properly cycled with sufficient live rock to support the bioload.

Even with 3 dead animals? There would be some kind of spike in ammonia or nitrites

outssider · 09/18/2018, 05:27 PM

If you started with dry dead rock, there can't be a mantis. I've had lots of emerald crabs and a quarter sized one can take out a cbs. (body quarter sized excluding limbs) They tear it apart into pieces so it's not like a molt. ….remains will be hard to find....

your cbs seems pretty large......but the claws on the emerald are strong....

I once had 9 emeralds in a 10 gallon tank with other various crustaceans…..after 6 months or so only one emerald out of the 9 remained....the largest one.....he had a guilty smile on his face.....

cjpitt80 · 09/19/2018, 09:20 AM

Ok so after careful inspection I've found ONE of the Banggais. I guess he's still adjusting to the new environment. He's hiding in the rockwork in the very back. He looks healthy but doesn't eat so hopefully he'll adjust soon. Both the new cardinals were eating mysis in the QT. When I put them in the DT they seemed normal when I woke up they went in to hiding. I still can't find the other one, but I guess he's hiding somewhere in the rockwork also

No sign of the CBS. Also, there's no chance anything is in the plumbing. I have just one 1.5in pipe for the overflow, so something would have to swim AGAINST the current. The I have the reef synergy overflow and the teeth are too small for even a little peppermint shrimp to get thru. The emerald crabs a little smaller than a quarter actually. I guess those are the most likely culprit but would they actually ATTACK a CBS? I know they're mostly opportunistic and scavengers. The CBS had some size to him though and he's pretty quick when touched. Just observing him and the crabs, I'm not seeing them taking the CBS out. Like they'd have to chase and hunt him down, I've never seen any of the emeralds move faster than a snail...

Unless a mantis can come in as an egg or microscopic size on livestock, I'm pretty sure I don't have one. And what size would one have to be to take out a pretty big size CBS?

cjpitt80 · 09/19/2018, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lngbrdz

Even with 3 dead animals? There would be some kind of spike in ammonia or nitrites

Seachem Ammoalert doesn't show any ammonia spike

lngbrdz · 09/19/2018, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjpitt80

Seachem Ammoalert doesn't show any ammonia spike

Wow things have changed a lot. Thank you

cjpitt80 · 09/19/2018, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lngbrdz

Wow things have changed a lot. Thank you

No Idea what you're thanking me for, but you're welcome. Glad to help

FortyFour · 09/19/2018, 01:30 PM

Bobbitt worm?

Nickfishman · 09/21/2018, 11:13 AM

i say it was the emeralds, they can be really nasty.

CrayolaViolence · 09/21/2018, 05:03 PM

In my experience the key to keeping your emeralds from eating their tank mates is to feed them. They are voracious eaters and while that's great for cleanup, not so good for friends when they're hungry.

cjpitt80 · 10/07/2018, 09:56 AM

UPDATE!!
Well, found one of the other cardinals dead on the over flow

I'm assuming the other died somewhere in the rocks and the emeralds took care of him.

I'm STILL stumped on the CBS. Again, he was pretty big size. They also can move pretty fast with that initial squirt they do. I've never seen any of the emeralds move that fast. There's also a decent size skunk cleaner in there and 2 smaller peppermint shrimp. I've never seen the emeralds go after anything large or lively. Has anyone ever seen an Emerald actively hunt and CHASE prey?? I ordered a replacement CBS and somehow neglected to see the size. He was TINY (maybe an inch total) and looked like he was having trouble acclimating . It was pretty clear what would happen to him when he went in the tank, and it did. One of the emeralds totally devoured him in maybe 5min. So I know it COULD happen, but I'm just really not sure with the size he was. and no other smaller inverts are missing. Anyway, I'll just have to head down to the LFS for a replacement. This has still got me stumped though...

Sk8r · 10/07/2018, 12:46 PM

Crustaceans often molt on arrival in a new tank. In molt, they are vulnerable, and hide. Or get eaten.

cjpitt80 · 10/07/2018, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Crustaceans often molt on arrival in a new tank. In molt, they are vulnerable, and hide. Or get eaten.

Yeah, once I saw the size of the new one, it was clear he had NO chance. Still a little confused about the big guy though.

09/18/2018, 11:21 AM	#1
cjpitt80 Registered Member Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 158	Are My Critters Escaping or Being Eaten? OK, So in the last 5 days I've had some disappearances. Current livestock is 1 black molly (hold over from cycling) a pair of ocellaris clowns, a banggai cardinalfish, and a clean up crew with trochus, nassarius, cerith snails and few other snails. I also have a skunk cleaner shrimp a Fire red cherry shrimp, 2 nickel size emerald crabs and 2 quarter size emeralds. The tank is about 98% covered with only the back 2in or so open. One side has the overflow so even less surface area is exposed Up until 3 days ago I also had a Coral Banded Shrimp for about 2 months. Thur morning he was there, Fri evening, gone. I've never seen anything act aggressively to him. The emeralds don't seem to bother him or anything for that matter, they just go around picking on the rocks all day. He's molted 2x since I've had him and the exoskeleton remains in the tank about a day and a half (same thing for the fire shrimp). If he was attacked, I would think I would have seen a claw or something, but NOTHING. Checked all around the floor, behind the tank...no sign of him. Last night I added 2 more slightly smaller banggais to the tank (after spending 2 weeks in QT). All looked well. No aggression with the established guy, one of the smaller ones even seemed to pair up with the existing one. Woke up this morning and.....of course. Same thing. Completely disappeared into the abyss. No sign. No fins floating around. No skin. No dried up fish on the carpet. NOTHING. ONLY the 2 smaller ones I added. The original one is in there looking completely fine and normal. What the heck is going on here? Obviously, there are only two possibilities. They're getting out, or getting eaten right? With the coral banded shrimp, I can only think it would be the emerald crabs get together and actually "hunted" him down? I've never witnessed this and I'm pretty sure that's not their behavior as they are scavengers and opportunistic feeders. The CBS looked fine last I saw him. Had grown back one of his claws to almost regular size. Even still I find it hard to believe they could completely consume the body with no trace in that short time. When any of the shrimp molt, the exoskeleton remains for a couple days. For the fish, ONLY the 2 new ones are gone? They both decided to jump out or were both eaten in a 8hr period? Again I see no bodies anywhere. Nothing. Ugh. FRUSTRATING. What do you guys think actualy happened? Also for any newbies if you have diamond watchman goby COVER your tank COMPLETELY. Those guys def jump and will find any tiny hole at the top of your 10gal QT tank near the filter and jump out. Eventhough they'll act like they stay only on the bottom and you'll never see them swim higher than the bottom 1/3 of the tank, they'll jump. But they'll land on the carpet and you can easily see what happeed to the't ask me how I know this... __________________ 75 gal display running since 5/14/18--29 gal sump Ocellaris Clown Pair, Flasher Wrasse, Bangaii Cardinal, Fire Shrimp pair, Skunk Cleaner, Blue Coral Banded Shrimp, Euphyllia, Monti Cap, Monti Digi. C

09/18/2018, 12:46 PM	#4
hkgar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dewitt MI Posts: 5,051	Mantis would seem likely. It wouldn't hurt to set a trap. google soda bottle trap. __________________ Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels

09/18/2018, 01:47 PM	#6
hkgar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dewitt MI Posts: 5,051	I had one. Never saw it even with close inspection. Just kept missing thing, like you. Set the trap, next morning there it was. I don't know how much rock work you have, but these critters hide in the smallest places where they can't be seen. They attack by surprise, not stalking. They wait for the prey to come by. __________________ Gary 180 gallon, 40 gallon sump, 3 250 W MH + 4 80W ATI T5's, MTC MVX 36 Skimmer, Apex controller Aquamaxx T-3 CaRx Current Tank Info: A 2 Barred Rabbitfish, Red Head Salon, Yellow/Purple, McMaster Fairy, Possum, 2 Leopard Wrasses, Kole, & Atlantic Blue Tangs, 2 Percula Clown, 3 PJ and 1 Banggai Cardinalfish , Swallowtail, Bellus and Coral Beauty Angels

09/18/2018, 05:27 PM	#10
outssider Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Reseda, Ca. Posts: 1,717	If you started with dry dead rock, there can't be a mantis. I've had lots of emerald crabs and a quarter sized one can take out a cbs. (body quarter sized excluding limbs) They tear it apart into pieces so it's not like a molt. ….remains will be hard to find.... your cbs seems pretty large......but the claws on the emerald are strong.... I once had 9 emeralds in a 10 gallon tank with other various crustaceans…..after 6 months or so only one emerald out of the 9 remained....the largest one.....he had a guilty smile on his face..... __________________ Please don't feed the bears because the bears will become dependent on free handouts and forget how to take care of themselves …... Current Tank Info: 75 Gal. Mixed reef mostly sps

09/19/2018, 09:20 AM	#11
cjpitt80 Registered Member Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 158	Update Ok so after careful inspection I've found ONE of the Banggais. I guess he's still adjusting to the new environment. He's hiding in the rockwork in the very back. He looks healthy but doesn't eat so hopefully he'll adjust soon. Both the new cardinals were eating mysis in the QT. When I put them in the DT they seemed normal when I woke up they went in to hiding. I still can't find the other one, but I guess he's hiding somewhere in the rockwork also No sign of the CBS. Also, there's no chance anything is in the plumbing. I have just one 1.5in pipe for the overflow, so something would have to swim AGAINST the current. The I have the reef synergy overflow and the teeth are too small for even a little peppermint shrimp to get thru. The emerald crabs a little smaller than a quarter actually. I guess those are the most likely culprit but would they actually ATTACK a CBS? I know they're mostly opportunistic and scavengers. The CBS had some size to him though and he's pretty quick when touched. Just observing him and the crabs, I'm not seeing them taking the CBS out. Like they'd have to chase and hunt him down, I've never seen any of the emeralds move faster than a snail... Unless a mantis can come in as an egg or microscopic size on livestock, I'm pretty sure I don't have one. And what size would one have to be to take out a pretty big size CBS? __________________ 75 gal display running since 5/14/18--29 gal sump Ocellaris Clown Pair, Flasher Wrasse, Bangaii Cardinal, Fire Shrimp pair, Skunk Cleaner, Blue Coral Banded Shrimp, Euphyllia, Monti Cap, Monti Digi. C

09/18/2018, 11:55 AM	#2
Smokey Stover Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Largo, Florida Posts: 361	What kind of rock? Live rock might have a hitch hiker you haven't seen yet. Mantis?

09/18/2018, 02:05 PM	#7
lngbrdz Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Winchester, CA Posts: 15	Ever think of checking the plumbing? Also if they died you would have ammonia spikes, correct?

09/19/2018, 01:30 PM	#15
FortyFour Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 371	Bobbitt worm?

09/21/2018, 11:13 AM	#16
Nickfishman Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: Oregon usa Posts: 52	i say it was the emeralds, they can be really nasty.

09/21/2018, 05:03 PM	#17
CrayolaViolence Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: North Carolina Posts: 1,867	In my experience the key to keeping your emeralds from eating their tank mates is to feed them. They are voracious eaters and while that's great for cleanup, not so good for friends when they're hungry. __________________ "The good thing about science is that it's true whether you believe it or not." Neil deGrasse Tyson Current Tank Info: 90 gallon reef tank

10/07/2018, 09:56 AM	#18
cjpitt80 Registered Member Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 158	UPDATE!! Well, found one of the other cardinals dead on the over flow I'm assuming the other died somewhere in the rocks and the emeralds took care of him. I'm STILL stumped on the CBS. Again, he was pretty big size. They also can move pretty fast with that initial squirt they do. I've never seen any of the emeralds move that fast. There's also a decent size skunk cleaner in there and 2 smaller peppermint shrimp. I've never seen the emeralds go after anything large or lively. Has anyone ever seen an Emerald actively hunt and CHASE prey?? I ordered a replacement CBS and somehow neglected to see the size. He was TINY (maybe an inch total) and looked like he was having trouble acclimating . It was pretty clear what would happen to him when he went in the tank, and it did. One of the emeralds totally devoured him in maybe 5min. So I know it COULD happen, but I'm just really not sure with the size he was. and no other smaller inverts are missing. Anyway, I'll just have to head down to the LFS for a replacement. This has still got me stumped though... __________________ 75 gal display running since 5/14/18--29 gal sump Ocellaris Clown Pair, Flasher Wrasse, Bangaii Cardinal, Fire Shrimp pair, Skunk Cleaner, Blue Coral Banded Shrimp, Euphyllia, Monti Cap, Monti Digi. C

10/07/2018, 12:46 PM	#19
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Crustaceans often molt on arrival in a new tank. In molt, they are vulnerable, and hide. Or get eaten. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.