Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[drew2007]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

You have a rimless, I need to be reminded of these things, as I jump back and forth between rimless and rimmed tanks, and it is hard to keep it straight.

Weir 1" down from the top of the tank, and ~1" from the top of the weir to the top of the elbows sounds right. The dry emergency elbow will probably peek above the top of the weir...

My measurements were wrong. From the bottom of the elbow to top of tank it's 5 3/8". So I have to minus 1 3/4" from that. 3/4" below the elbow and 1" from top of tank to get my height for the weir correct? I'm confused. Sorry.

[pdiehm]

Based on the picture above...7/8" from bottom of trim to top of hole. 1 3/4" from bottom trim to center of hole.

Too low?

[greene.phillip]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Honestly, at this point, you have already invested too much time in it, and are not any closer to an answer...

I would not punch a single additional hole in the tank. If wanting to punch a hole, move up to the top of the back, punch three holes for 1" bulkheads, pull the existing overflow out, put in a C2C, and be done with the suffering due to a manufacturer's lack of insight. By far, for the system as a whole, that is the best option, but also the most work intensive.

I know, I know, two options to choose from is fairly easy, adding a third increases the difficulty exponentially..

Again, this is not a rocket ship, though I do make it seem so. I put that out there for those that want to hit a specific flow rate, without oversizing or undersizing the pump, rather than taking potluck.

I'd rather waste time now than put it all together and have problems/regrets.

What's the best way to go about removing an overflow? Seems like quite a challenge.

If you start out planning for a rocketship and you don't quite make your plans you're still better off than if you planned to get by and missed the mark.

I may end up trying to shoehorn the BA in there as you called it lol. Not sure about removing the overflow, would be nice to have it out of the way though. I really want to get away from the seemingly constant tuning with my herbie (which you also helped me with about 1.5 years ago). Pretty sure I could change the pipes over to a herbie without much trouble without taking the tank down anyway and there will probably be several wet runs anyway.

[uncleof6]

Getting an overflow out is a bit of work, but guitar strings and razor blades are your friend. Just don't cut it all the way into the bottom seam. Stop about an 1/8" above the seam or something.

[drew2007]

Originally Posted by drew2007

My measurements were wrong. From the bottom of the elbow to top of tank it's 5 3/8". So I have to minus 1 3/4" from that. 3/4" below the elbow and 1" from top of tank to get my height for the weir correct? I'm confused. Sorry.

Uncleof6

Measuring everything out the best I could for my c2c. If I put 3/4" under the turned down elbow and 1" above the elbow that will leave me a space of 1 5/8" to top of tank. Will that be too much? I know you said ~1" above elbow and 1" below top of tank. Total height for the weir would be 4 7/8". I hope I got this right. I'm racking my brain over here.

[Drama]

I just had similar questions about this same thing. After several questions to 4hummer, I may be wrong but my understanding is that the bottom of overflow should be 1/2"-3/4" below the full siphon 90 and go all the way up to the bottom of the trim on the outside of the tank. You should be able to adjust the water height inside the overflow with the gate valve. The overflow box will determine the water height in the display. By drilling the holes to low, will just cause you to just make a larger box (overflow). Hopefully uncleof6 and or others can chime in to confirm my thoughts about this. I may be wrong and misunderstand, im trying not to over think it, just trying to help lol

[uncleof6]

Well, where the waterline is with a rimless is not as 'annoying' as it is with a rimmed tank. You can hide the waterline in a rimmed tank, you can't in a rimless....

With the dimensions you mention drew, the waterline will actually be around 1.5" below the tank top, maybe a little less (head height behind the weir...) I run an inch below; some are more comfortable with 1.5" below the physical top of the tank, which on a rimmmed tank is about where it is with the weir set at the bottom of the trim on the outside....

What will set the head height on the drains, is the position of the elbows, (water level in the overflow.) The weir height is more about a 'shorter drop' for silence, and setting the water level in main part of the tank.

[talwen]

Anyone happen to have a parts list for a 20 gallon long for this overflow. Don't have much time to read through all pagesto figure out sizes got a baby due in 2 days

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by talwen

Anyone happen to have a parts list for a 20 gallon long for this overflow. Don't have much time to read through all pagesto figure out sizes got a baby due in 2 days

Don't have to read much... one size fits all, that is the whole idea...

http://www.beananimal.com/projects/s...ow-system.aspx

Sorry, I don't have time to write another parts list....

[drew2007]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Well, where the waterline is with a rimless is not as 'annoying' as it is with a rimmed tank. You can hide the waterline in a rimmed tank, you can't in a rimless....

With the dimensions you mention drew, the waterline will actually be around 1.5" below the tank top, maybe a little less (head height behind the weir...) I run an inch below; some are more comfortable with 1.5" below the physical top of the tank, which on a rimmmed tank is about where it is with the weir set at the bottom of the trim on the outside....

What will set the head height on the drains, is the position of the elbows, (water level in the overflow.) The weir height is more about a 'shorter drop' for silence, and setting the water level in main part of the tank.

1.5" or slightly less would be perfect. I'm guessing I measured correctly then lol. Now for the width. Inside width is 46.5". Should I make length of weir 46.25"? Leaving 1/8" on each side?

[BeanAnimal]

Glass shops cut within an 1/8" or so, a 1/16" of you are lucky. If the panel is too long, the only way to shorten it is with a diamond grinder. It should not be "snug" and given that silicone can bridge a small gap in this situation, I would go for 46.25" unless the glass shop is willing to do a bit of grinding if the panel is too long. If not, be sure to tell them before they start that the panels MUST be less than 46.5" and no shorter than 46.25" or you will not accept them. The slightly short panels for the bottom will also help you deal with the silicone bead in the back corners of the existing tank, or you could have those corners slightly eased.

[schlegelli46]

Ok, have my BA overflow working but not as intended as far as I can tell...my open channel is handling ALL the flow while the full siphon channel is handling absolutely none. Only using ball valve on full channel as required. Have tried a couple things to remedy but to no avail. Any suggestions? Thanks

[BeanAnimal]

I would imagine your siphon standpipe is submerged far too deep into the sump.

[schlegelli46]

heya Bean, all my drain lines are approx. 1 3/4" below sump water level. I got the system working by upturning my full channel elbow, then returning to original position but after a startup, it does the same thing...only drains with open channel. thanks

edit: removed and cut so siphon pipe extends 1" below operating level...still no change after startup

[greene.phillip]

Originally Posted by schlegelli46

heya Bean, all my drain lines are approx. 1 3/4" below sump water level. I got the system working by upturning my full channel elbow, then returning to original position but after a startup, it does the same thing...only drains with open channel. thanks

edit: removed and cut so siphon pipe extends 1" below operating level...still no change after startup

Perhaps your siphon is slightly higher than your open channel?

Is the open channel siphoning or still running with air? If its high and starts flowing enough (outflowing your return pump) it may not get high enough to get to or at least get the siphon going?

[schlegelli46]

the open channel is the only channel pulling siphon until I make the adjustment as mentioned above. I have actually switched the two 90s in overflow around and tried for the different height scenario...no change. Always the open channel pulling siphon...

[greene.phillip]

Does the siphon line have more 90s or longer runs or a more horizontal run that the open doesn't?

I'm just throwing bout ideas until someone that actually knows what they're doing has time to answer. Don't put too much faith in me

[wideawake]

Drill a small hole on the pipe just above the water line in the sump. This is to expell air when the system starts up...

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by wideawake

Drill a small hole on the pipe just above the water line in the sump. This is to expell air when the system starts up...

That is not at all necessary. The pipe will still air lock if you don't have the poop to blow it out...at 1" or less below the water surface, blow the pipe out is not a problem. It is implementation issues that cause these problems...fix the implementation, and the problem goes away.....

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by schlegelli46

the open channel is the only channel pulling siphon until I make the adjustment as mentioned above. I have actually switched the two 90s in overflow around and tried for the different height scenario...no change. Always the open channel pulling siphon...

Siphon line (in fact all of them) too deep in the sump.
Air vent line from the open channel to deep in the overlfow: it needs to be above the dry emergency.
Horizontal runs in the plumbing.

Top three causes of this issue. The other causes can usually be traced back to these three....there are no mysterious twists of fate with this. This is the way it needs to be, and doing it another way may be exciting, but it usually don't work...

Your siphon is air locking: so fix the implementation

[ekgringo]

Hi everybody! I just had to add my experience to this truly epic thread!

I started the hobby with a 46-gallon FOWLR tank with HOB filter, HOB CPR Backpack skimmer, and a tiny HOB refugium. It never really performed the way I wanted. This was probably because it was too small and I was too inexperienced. I finally decided to upgrade to a bigger tank.

I planned to build a 75 gallon tank, stand, and 20 gallon sump with a C2C internal Beananimal overflow box back in March 2014. And of course I had to do everything myself. Yes, I read nearly all of the posts in this thread until I felt I understood the design, the reasons behind it, and the pitfalls to avoid. I built the frame for the stand and took it to my Dad's to use his table saw and workshop. We built the entire stand over the weekend and I took it home to finish. It took months to figure out how the plumbing was going to go before I could finish the stand.

I bought a 75 gallon glass tank from PetSmart and a 20 gallon long glass tank from Petco. I bought diamond hole saws, plumbing parts, a Reef Octopus protein skimmer, a Mag 9.5 return pump, bulkheads, silicone caulk, woodworking tools, stain, polyurethane, PVP pipe, more from Amazon, Savko, Home Depot, Ace Hardware, and more. I learned plumbing techniques, and learned the hard way that dry-fitting PVC is not as helpful as it seems because nothing fits the same after you glue it. I beveled and chamfered all of the pipe and fittings. I bought custom cut 1/4" glass panels from a local glass shop and assembled them into baffles in the sump and the overflow box on the display aquarium.

Finally, after 4 months of worrying, nail biting, knuckle scraping, re-staining the doors 3 times because they just didn't turn out right, melting the PVC out of the bulkheads with a blowtorch because I put the gasket on the outside instead of the inside of the tank after I had already glued everything together, it was done. It was a miracle I managed to fit all of the plumbing into the sump along with the skimmer; everything barely fits with no room to spare. The plumbing has unions in key locations so it can all be disassembled, and so the sump can be removed.

And it works great! And it's nearly silent! The only noise is the slight thrum of the return pump and the skimmer, but that is kept to a minimum with the doors closed. I have 2 return lines on each side of the tank and each is split into two loc-lines. One loc-line on each side sticks half above the water line to prevent a siphon if the return pump goes offline, so they make a slight trickling noise.

Yes, I had to make a few minor tweaks...

I originally didn't install strainers on the drain pipes in the overflow box because the strainers I had were too long. I learned my lesson after a big snail got sucked in and nearly blocked the opening of the siphon pipe, resulting in a loud sucking noise at 3am in the morning, 3 times in as many weeks. I finally just cut the strainers down to fit; no more snail problem.

I didn't have enough room in the sump for plumbing to remove the clean water from the protein skimmer. It just dumped the water back into the same area it was pulling water from. Clearly it wasn't the most efficient that way and the water flow in the sump just went straight across the top of the refugium section on its way to the return pump. I planted a small ball of cheato but it just faded away, possibly because it wasn't getting any circulation. I finally managed to squeeze a pair of 90 degree elbows to direct the skimmer outflow over the baffles and into the refugium. In addition to making the skimmer more efficient, it circulates the water in the refugium vertically instead of stagnating in the bottom with current flowing over the top.

Ultimately I would like to graduate to the next level and upgrade to a reef tank. I know I need better lighting. I know I'll have to be more diligent about water changes and parameter testing. But at least I have a great system and enough capacity for stability.

[chiroken]

Hello, "bean" awhile but I'm back, nothing happens quickly it seems!

Sourcing out the fittings for my 3 overflows and have been to my local large plumbing outfitter (I'm in Canada). Not much available at my Home Depot and others like it.

Can't get 1.25" x 1" slip street elbow. He recommended using 1.25 x 1.25 regular elbow with a 1.25 x 1 bushing. The 1" end will then slip into my 1" slip x slip bulkhead. This will extend the elbow only 3-4mm further from the bulkhead by using the bushing to reduce to 1".

Any concerns with this modification?

I can't get 1.5" sanitary (directional) T's up here. He even called the largest manufacturer/supplier in Canada. If they are available he doesn't know where to get them. I would use regular T's. Will this create a noticable noise difference? I am hoping it isn't worth the shipping costs to get a few sanitary T's mailed to me, probably cross border from the US.

Can I substitute the 1/4 tube x 3/8 NPT John Guest fitting with a John Guest 1/4 x 1/4? They stock the 1/4 x 1/4.

My return pump outlet is 3/4" female threaded and includes an attachment that is 3/4" male x 3/4" barb. It was suggested to step this dimension up to 1". I am planning on a single 1" return to the tank. He suggested right at the pump using a 1" slip x 3/4" male fitting to get me immediately to 1" pvc which I can run to my 1" slip x slip bulkhead. Make sense?

Again thank you for you assistance, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for starting to put this together.

[PufferGhoti]

I have just sourced the parts in Quebec, and the usual hardware stores I could find very little of what I needed. The best place I found was stores that did swimming pool parts, plus they were willing to order things too. The only issue was the sanitary tee's which were only in ABS although I could get regular Tee's. Fortunately I was in the US on a trip and walked into a regular hardware store and they had them.

[chiroken]

Originally Posted by PufferGhoti

I have just sourced the parts in Quebec, and the usual hardware stores I could find very little of what I needed. The best place I found was stores that did swimming pool parts, plus they were willing to order things too. The only issue was the sanitary tee's which were only in ABS although I could get regular Tee's. Fortunately I was in the US on a trip and walked into a regular hardware store and they had them.

thanks for the suggestion. I had heard to try the irrigation/pool places and I was unsuccessful in finding the parts at the largest in my area (not a huge metro centre though). I didn't enquire whether or not they could order in though... I would think the substitution of the 1.25" elbow will not be a problem, would like confirmation (paranoid!!!). No trips to the US planned in the near future

[uncleof6]

Regular elbow will work fine. Sanitary tees are also optional, and if the plumbing is smaller than 1.25", they are not available anywhere. The difference between the sanitary tee and a regular tee, is the regular tee will create a bit more turbulence when the water heads down. That said, 1" systems with regular tees, are also silent.

You may want to contact Charlotte Pipe & Foundry, in Charlotte, NC USA and find out if they have a distributor in Canada, there is also a plant in Muncy, PA, or have your supplier contact Charlotte Pipe...the sani tees I use all come from Charlotte Pipe.