Use of Lasers in Controlling Pest Algae and Corals

[Ghosty]

Very interesting and informative thread! Unfortunately I agree with the naysayers that this (especially the "neat video" of the Aiptasia kill) will tease some people into experimenting, when they really might not have the experience or safety precautions.

I USE TO own a Wicked Arctic S3 1w (blue) laser (sold it to a friend), and the supplied safety goggles, BUT I still would be too scared to try this. Even at home alone in the dark and all possible reflective sources removed. Even if the probability is low to catch one of those reflected beams, it's not guaranteed 100%!

*subscribed*

[Sk8r]

That's what worries me, Ghosty. I looked at getting one of these myself; but reading a bit convinced me not to. There are effective methods short of death ray warfare---and honestly, I know too many people whose enthusiasm exceeds their sense of caution.

Particularly dangerous is the tendency of people in this hobby (particularly very young ones) to believe what a friend read on some website---instead of doing their own research and being skeptical. Sorry to say it, but EPIC FAIL with this equipment is going to end very badly. Remember the guy who tried to pull out a tree with a pickup and a chain---which of course broke, whiplashed, and took out his back window, narrowly missing him in the driver's seat? Remember the guys who dropped a frozen turkey into a turkey frier, and launched pieces into orbit?
This IS rocket science, and you can hurt yourself and the innocent---real bad.

[Ghosty]

I hear that. I don't want the thread closed by any means, as it is an interesting topic that should be discussed IN DETAIL. And not worried about the more technical people in this thread, but moreso about the more newbie-ish people who don't read the entire thread and get excited about trying it. showing their friends with just sunglasses, etc. Sorry in advance I came into this thread a week late, not trying to beat a deadhorse.

Hopefully there are enough warnings throughout these posts to steer "most" people away. CalmSeasQuest's post#20 above is excellent in this regard. Also glad to see someone (CJO) came up with that wand idea at least, very clever.

[CalmSeasQuest]

While we continue to work on creating and improving safety measures for tank inhabitants and the user/observers (intentional or otherwise) I've ordered a waterproof host that will function in a salt-water environment. I'd like to incorporate a 405nm emitter, but am having difficulty finding the appropriate components that will fit in the smaller waterproof hosts. For the time being, it will be a 1.2mW 445nm. Although less powerful than the unit I've been testing with, I believe this will be more than offset by the fact the laser will be much closer to the target without power loss due to reflection off the tank walls. I still beleive 405nm is the ideal wavelength for this purpose (smallest focus point and best heat transfer at lowest possible power settings) but this will at least prove the concept.

This method will simplify the creation of the necessary beam endpoint shield and eliminate any unshielded beam in the water thereby protecting the livestock. I envision a simple, cone-shaped shield that can be fitted directly to the laser. Research continues on finding suitable laser safe acrylic for the endpoint shield. There are numerous suppliers, but the least expensive material found to date that provides OD4+ 445nm protection is more than $185.00 per Sq Ft.

This should (subject to testing) eliminate the vast majority of reflection concerns as the laser itself can be placed with an inch of the target. The acrylic cone will be large enough to absorb any potential reflection from the target and still allow the operator to view the target and surrounding area.

If successful, I believe this combination will address all of the safety concerns identified thus far for the user, observers and livestock (safety glasses will still be required for any/all observers.)

[BuckeyeTodd]

CalmSeas I think you have been more than responsible in this venture. I for one have a deep dimension tank that makes the normal methods of majano removal very hard. I was going to order the 1-1.3 but I think I'll wait and see how the waterproof laser works. It seems safer and more effective of a concept to me.

[Ron Reefman]

As the person who started this idea in the 'Reef Discussion' area on Nov 3rd... almost a month before CalmSeas moved some of the discussion over here and started to write up pages of dangers and safety precautions, I'll add my 2 cents.

I've been using the 1w laser in my tank for 8 weeks now. I've removed about 100 aiptasia and a couple dozen majano anemones. I've been careful, I wear the proper safety glasses and I watch for stray reflections and in tank critters. So far, absolutely no ill effects on anybody or any thing! All the aiptasia and majano that I can see are gone (I know there are some I can't see, so the problem isn't solved, just managed). All my fish can still swim. They don't bump into rocks. And they still pick out very small bits of food from the water without any issue. I've only had one fish who doesn't seem to be bothered by the laser and is willing to swim near it, the others all keep some distance from the light... even the 2 clowns who chase a small red laser pointer dot around the rocks seem to know this is different! The glass of my tank hasn't fatigued and started to crack or craze, let alone starting to leak. I haven't blinded anybody with stray refections. And most (not all, but most) reflections will not burn as they are not going to find a target at the point where they are in focus. I haven't done any tests about how hot the laser beam is at some distance from the point of focus (say 3" or 6" or 12"), but I do know that you can't kill aiptasia unless you are darn near right on with the focus. If you are off by just an inch or two and the aiptasia doesn't even react to the light. Why is that? It's certainly not because the unfocused laser light is so strong that it's going to burn a hole thru your drywall behind the tank!

Now don't get me wrong, I'm just fine with all the concern, and safety precautions and worry about other issues related to the use of one of these lasers. And the efforts of CalmSeas to do some serious research and write up some 'guidelines' for using a laser in your aquarium are well intentioned and worthy of serious consideration. Maybe it's just that I'm cautious enough that I don't do crazy things with mine and smart enough to treat the laser with great respect (almost like a gun). But based on the results I've seen in my tank so far, I think some of the worry and concern expressed by some in this thread is pretty 'over the top'.

[doctorgori]

you two are "Cross contaminating" each others threads...
IBTL

[CalmSeasQuest]

Ron,

We obviously have different approaches toward safety...

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

Mouse, as for the safety issues... I don't think this thread has been too bad, we really do need to be careful with these. But the other thread in the "Advanced Topics" has gone WAY, WAY over the top about safety. You'd think that using one of these in an aquarium is causing global warming or something! I mean since I started using a laser for this, my arms have gotten much longer, my knuckles almost drag on the ground and I'm growing hair in places I never did before, like my knuckles... and I have this crazy urge to eat bananas and swing from trees... but other than that, I haven't seen any side effects!?!?! ...

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

I never even considered blinding the fish... hmm. I'm sure it would and all they'd need to do is be close by and look at the light source. It wouldn't even have to hit the eye directly.

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

1) Looking at the bright spot that is being lasered isn't going to cause serious eye damage. It's not a real good idea, but it can be done without safety goggles.

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

I've been careful, I wear the proper safety glasses and I watch for stray reflections and in tank critters.

I've only had one fish who doesn't seem to be bothered by the laser and is willing to swim near it...

I haven't blinded anybody with stray reflections. And most (not all, but most) reflections will not burn as they are not going to find a target at the point where they are in focus.

Maybe it's just that I'm cautious enough that I don't do crazy things with mine and smart enough to treat the laser with great respect (almost like a gun). But based on the results I've seen in my tank so far, I think some of the worry and concern expressed by some in this thread is pretty 'over the top'.

How are you able to "watch" for stray reflections? Assuming you are wearing the appropriate eye protection - You must be aware that you cannot see laser reflections. I would think it would be apparent as you mentioned in your thread that you burned your neck from a reflection off the glass. Imagine what would have happen had that stray, lower power reflected energy struck the eye of any observer not wearing safety glasses because you advised it was safe to view the endbeam without eye protection?

You have stated in your thread that you beleive it is safe to view the beam endpoint WITHOUT safety glasses. So you don't beleive it necessary to take any precautions to prevent the livestock from being exposed to the beam endpoint?

I looked at this from the perspective that many people choosing try try using a laser to eradicate pets in their tank would have little or no knowledge about the potential dangers, and tried (with the help of many others) to create some basic safety standards. I'm not sure why you felt the need to belittle those efforts.

[TheFishMan65]

Although not always possible I have found the lifting a rock out of the water works well. No reflection, easier to focus, and no loss of power going through glass or water. Any thought on this as a preferred method (when possible)?

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by doctorgori

you two are "Cross contaminating" each others threads...
IBTL

You're right. Sorry for the distraction - Moving on now

I've decided to order a small amount of the 445nm/OD4 laser acrylic to try and fabricate an endpoint shield. I've never worked in forming acrylic, so this will be a new experience. I'm hoping I can just create a cone shaped mold and using an oven, soften and form the acrylic over the mold - Then drill a hole to fit it to the waterproof host.

At least it sounds simple

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by TheFishMan65

Although not always possible I have found the lifting a rock out of the water works well. No reflection, easier to focus, and no loss of power going through glass or water. Any thought on this as a preferred method (when possible)?

Sure, great point - I missed an obvious one. Without the cooling effect of the water, the laser would also be more effective.

[zachtos]

I hate to be a stick in the mud about safety, but I worry about this becoming widespread. Regulations are just about non existent on these devices at the moment. Can we at least modify the name of the thread to include the words 'Eye DANGER' or something of the like? I am an exeperienced electrical engineer and this is by far the most dangerous thread I've ever seen on this site. Instant blindness to yourself or others is the result of accidents with this technique. That being said, I have no doubt it will work wonders, just like at the doctors office where they are trained proffesionals.

[TucanSam007]

I don't care what anyone says...this is the coolest thread I have seen on here. I love lasers and I love killing pests! win win! safety precautions are common sense. Lock it up and protect your livestock and yourself..Just like everything else, everyone assumes that people are too stupid to be able to handle these types of "weapons". I've seen an old lady leave a store with a handgun permit so why can't we use lasers? I wan't one!

[Maivortex]

This can be dangerous but so is driving your car as is massive amounts of water mixed with electricity.
There has been a lot of effort about safety of lasers in the aquarium. I think it would be put to better use if calmseas develop a list of personal protection equipment and a standard operating procedure. This probably already exists. The last step would be actual training but of course it is not practical. This is standard way how dangerous equipment is handled. The link below shows a laser the military uses. Makes our lasers look like squirt guns.....
http://www.army.mil//-images/2009/01...-30-150100.jpg

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by Maivortex

This can be dangerous but so is driving your car as is massive amounts of water mixed with electricity.

Silly logic like that is what earns many people Darwin awards. Your application of logic ignores probability and consequences and context at numerous levels.

This is standard way how dangerous equipment is handled. The link below shows a laser the military uses. Makes our lasers look like squirt guns.....

The fact that the military keeps multi-megaton warheads and is trained in their safe handling does not mean that your DIY spud gun is any less capable of blowing your head off...

Context means everything my friend; and in this context, high power lasers in the hands of novice DIY reefers is certainly a context in which the probability of severe personal injury of the operator, bystanders and unintended creature-victoms (dogs, cats, fish, whatever) is highly probable.

[Wrench]

Anyone who lacks the common sense to use one of these lasers safely should be flicked off of the face of the earth by Darwin himself. This isn't rocket science people. All it takes is a bit of personal responsibility- oh wait.......nevermind.

[Sk8r]

Sorry. 12 year olds and people who missed physics come under your Darwin rule. And if you don't have an acquaintance with optics you're a hazard. The last thing this thread needs is someone waving the 12 year olds ahead and urging them that safety is not a big deal.

Safety is a very big deal if you've never handled firearms, serious power tools, or lasers and have no clue why matching the protective glasses to the laser matters.

The 'fail' on this is permanent, for you and for bystanders.

This thread is very close to being closed, as we are now down to bad information.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by Wrench

Anyone who lacks the common sense to use one of these lasers safely should be flicked off of the face of the earth by Darwin himself. This isn't rocket science people. All it takes is a bit of personal responsibility- oh wait.......nevermind.

This has nothing to do with personal responsibility in the context in which you frame it. These are dangerous tools that take a very significant amount of understanding and precaution to use safely.The average reefer does not have the background understanding of the dangers to understand the proper precautions in the variable environment that we are discussing, even after reading a thread like this. There are simply far too many variables to assume any differently.

I have no problem with the thread, open discussion of the subject or the act of ANYBODY deciding to burn aptasia or their eyes out. If (when) the unfortunate harm to others happens, I suppose the courts can decide if there is to be consequences so I don't have a stake in that either, unless some idiot burns my eyes with a laser without allowing me warning to leave the area.

What does bother me is the responses from folks who clearly have no sense of how probable a devastating accident is when these devices are used in the manner and environments that are being discussed here. That is, I have a serious issue with those who downplay the danger and advising others in that context, and continue to do so after numerous well-informed and factual posts showing the ignorance of that position.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

This thread is very close to being closed, as we are now down to bad information.

I find ironic and sad that this thread, the one source that has clearly focused on the safety aspects on the use of lasers in aquaria (more so than any other resource, including other RC threads) is now threatened with closure.

Since I just invested in an underwater host, and ordered endpoint shield material made from OD4 acrylic - Perhaps I should continue my work in another venue...

Thank you to all that have contributed to this thread.

[BeanAnimal]

CalmSeasQuest:

I do not get the impression that Sk8r was attributing the threat toward anything you have done. I think he feels (as I do) that the safety issues related to this discussion continue to be downplayed by those who seek to contribute their opinion, even after it has been made clear that the safety issues are the chief concern and their BOLD repitition are key to keeping this topic open.

[BuckeyeTodd]

By all means, safety is a huge concern. Every single page on here warns of the dangers. In no way should anyone take it lightly, but this is an answer for many reefers. To close off discussion on this topic would dissapoint me. Like many other things in this world, when used properly this is a safe device.

[TheFishMan65]

It would be nice if people only contributed ideas (or questions) about saftery. Instead we get a lot of people saying not to worry about safety or to just not to try lasers.

I for one appreciate someone listing all the precautions that can be thought of and trying to find a safer way to do this. I look forward to your updated CalmSeas.

[NatureNerd]

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

Sure, great point - I missed an obvious one. Without the cooling effect of the water, the laser would also be more effective.

Getting back on topic.

The idea of using the laser on rocks pulled from the tank, kind of defeats the whole purpose. If you can pull the rock out, a simple butane lighter will do the job quicker, more effectively, and safer.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by BeanAnimal

CalmSeasQuest:

I do not get the impression that Sk8r was attributing the threat toward anything you have done. I think he feels (as I do) that the safety issues related to this discussion continue to be downplayed by those who seek to contribute their opinion, even after it has been made clear that the safety issues are the chief concern and their BOLD repitition are key to keeping this topic open.

Thanks BA, I do understand the concern. I just find it ironic that this thread would be under threat of closure when in fact, it's the single best proponent and reference source for the SAFE use of lasers in aquaria.

BTW, thank you for your work on the design of silent and safe overflows - I would never consider using any other type of overflow.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeTodd

By all means, safety is a huge concern. Every single page on here warns of the dangers. In no way should anyone take it lightly, but this is an answer for many reefers. To close off discussion on this topic would dissapoint me. Like many other things in this world, when used properly this is a safe device.

Thanks very much - I couldn't agree more

Originally Posted by TheFishMan65

It would be nice if people only contributed ideas (or questions) about safety. Instead we get a lot of people saying not to worry about safety or to just not to try lasers.

I for one appreciate someone listing all the precautions that can be thought of and trying to find a safer way to do this. I look forward to your updated CalmSeas.

Thank you! Hopefully those contributing can help us stay on topic.

It's really the "Wild West" when it comes to using lasers for our intended purposes. There are those so focused on the potential benefits, they fail to understand (or at least promote) the risks and important safety concerns.

From my perspective - safety glasses should NOT be considered an option. I have a background in aviation - I tend to use a "checklist" for many processes that pose a risk or in which the outcome is dependant on the process itself. The use of safety glasses should be part of everyone's "checklist" prior to firing the laser for not only the user, but any and all spectators. This is a challenge for 2 reasons,

1) The desire to "show off" or demonstrate the laser is significant. It's human nature to want to share with friends and fellow reefers this new-found way to "Zap" pests into oblivion.

2) The proper eye protection is expensive. At ~$50 for a pair of properly rated laser protection glasses, it becomes an expensive proposition to provide eye protection for those wishing to observe.

I'm hoping my inclusion of the burned retina photos and details is enough to prove that eye safety is the single most important part of laser use. At these power outputs, it takes but a fraction of a second to damage (potentially permanently) your eyesight or the vision of anyone within range of your laser (many hundreds of yards.)

Protecting our vision is as simple as wearing the proper safety glasses. Protecting the livestock is admittedly trickier. To accept the fact that the laser is dangerous to our vision, then fail to take steps to protect the very livestock we work so hard to maintain that are literally inches away from the laser makes no sense to me.