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Unread 05/19/2014, 04:57 PM   #1
jharding08
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Reason BeanAnimal overflow is taking longer to purge air

So I went through troubleshooting my BA overflow when I first implemented it. It was not purging the air from the siphon channel. The open channel kept burping up air, then get quiet as it backed up, then burp air again, over and over. After I put a 90 elbow on the open channel in the sump, away from the siphon channel, it evened out after one purging of air.

It worked well for about 3 months and then started slowly taking longer to purge all the air out. After 4 months, it took about 2-3 minutes. Now it doesn't purge within 10 minutes.

I have changed nothing, except water changes.

What could it be?


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Unread 05/19/2014, 05:32 PM   #2
ca1ore
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First of all make sure the sump end of the siphon pipe is only slightly submerged. Second, make sure there is no gunk buildup above the gate valve.


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Unread 05/19/2014, 05:43 PM   #3
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1) As ca1ore mentioned, if any of the pipes are more than an 1" below the water level in the sump, at some point, the system will fail to start properly.

2) If the air vent line for the open channel is too low in the overflow, the system will fail to start properly. The air vent inlet should be higher than the inlet to the dry emergency.

3) 90s (aka horizontal runs) can and do cause the system to airlock, the result is the system will fail to start.

The symptons of all three of these "causes" are the same: The open channel goes a bit nuts, and the siphon does not start fully.

4) If the system is implemented properly, and there is only "one way," (some variations allowed, but the list is very short) it will not function properly. There isn't and never should be any reason to add fittings to the outlets of any of the drains to get it to perform properly. All issues with this drain system, are due improper implementation, or air leaks in the siphon. I am not saying this to beat you over the head, rather so the many will keep it in mind.

It is possible that the plumbing has some buildup, which would slow it down, but your symptoms are very much inline with the basic implementation being faulty from the very start...


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Last edited by uncleof6; 05/19/2014 at 05:59 PM.
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Unread 05/20/2014, 01:47 PM   #4
jharding08
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I took the cap off of the siphon channel and let everything drain, then put it back on and next time, there was only one air purge, but it took a while for siphon to pull all the water out of the overflow and get it to the original water line. Just seems it takes longer to get the water in the overflow back to the original water line as time goes on.

I have had a ton of algae that I have been turkey basting. I will give the elbows and valves a scrubbing as well


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Unread 05/27/2014, 10:18 AM   #5
jharding08
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Can someone please correct my thinking on how the BeanAmimal Overflow works? I am not getting any siphon now unless I take the top of the siphon channel off as well as open the ball valve on the siphon channel all the way to purge the air. I need to figure out why I had this working for a month, where it would normalize in 1-2 min, while now it takes more than 10 and nothing has changed in the plumbing, just the water and things in the water.

My thinking -
Overflow is dry after turning pumps off, from the siphon pulling all water through the drain. When the pump is turned back on, the water level in the overflow rises past the down-turned 90 elbows, because there is air in the siphon and open channel drain lines that needs to be purged.

The pressure that is building up from the water pushes the air out of the siphon and drain lines (at the same rate?). That is why I hear the large air bubbles in the sump (mostly from the open channel, only mini bubbles from the siphon, shouldnt they be the same?)

Once the air is purged from the siphon, the siphon line will handle most of the water flow and depending on the adjustment of the ball valve on the siphon line, only enough water to cling to the side of the open channel will fall through the open channel.

What role does the open channel play in starting up the system? As long as the air being purged from the open channel doesn't go up into the outlet of the siphon channel (being too close to each other in the sump), is the open channel just helping move water on startup? Would the siphon start faster if more water was pushing on the air in the siphon line vs. some being diverted to the open channel?

I had this system working well when I diverted the open channel outlet away from the siphon outlet. The only thing that has changed is the water has more algae and detritus in it from turkey basting it off the rocks. I cleaned the pipes the other day and they were clean, but havent cleaned from the down-turned elbow through the gate valve. Could detritus be building up in there? I just want to get back to where there is one air purge and the siphon starts, like I had before.

Thanks again for the help with this


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Unread 05/27/2014, 01:09 PM   #6
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Take it apart, clean it, put it back together. Use non-hardening thread sealant, not tape to seal up the caps, and any other threaded fittings. Don't remove the caps again, if everything else is right, that is never necessary unless there is a block in the line. If there is a valve on the open channel, close the valve, if not, plug the open channel so no water can enter. (basic two pipe system)

Fire up the system with the valve on the siphon wide open. If the dry emergency takes the flow, and the siphon does little, it is pretty obvious where the problem is. If the siphon sinks in, then you can see how the system is supposed to start, and you need to determine why the open channel is hogging flow.

Things that I do know: There are hundreds of these systems (probably thousands) in operation, that operate flawlessly. This pretty much indicates that when there is a problem, it is with the implementation, rather than something "weird." I know your system was not right to begin with, and you put a band aid on it (the elbow at the bottom of the open channel.)

Go back and read the first several pages of the original thread. Compare it point by point with the system you built. It seems you are not really familiar with what the open channel does, and why, and how it fits into the grand scheme, nor how the system is supposed to start. I find it interesting that you have not once mentioned the dry emergency...for instance, the open channel will never purge the air out...it can't, because it operates with an intentional air leak...water rises and flows in the dry emergency, then drops due to head pressure on the siphon...this is where your system is failing.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=1


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Unread 05/27/2014, 01:48 PM   #7
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By taking the top of the sipon off do you mean that you open up the top of the T after the bulkhead? This by definition would destroy any siphonability as it would add air to the siphon and make it an open channel drain.

Have you removed your valve to check for any objects stuck there. Siphon lines are magnets for snails. that is my first SWAG. Post a pic of your setup and hopefully we can give some better feedback. You state ball valve on the siphon line and talk about a gate valve??? Gate on your siphon nothin on your open channel is the best approach. If you do have a ball valve it should be oversized.

In terms of bubbles the open channel will handle more water than your siphon line prior to the siphon start simply because your siphon line is valved partially closed. More water = more bubbles in open channel.


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Unread 05/27/2014, 02:45 PM   #8
jharding08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT_York View Post
By taking the top of the sipon off do you mean that you open up the top of the T after the bulkhead? This by definition would destroy any siphonability as it would add air to the siphon and make it an open channel drain.

Have you removed your valve to check for any objects stuck there. Siphon lines are magnets for snails. that is my first SWAG. Post a pic of your setup and hopefully we can give some better feedback. You state ball valve on the siphon line and talk about a gate valve??? Gate on your siphon nothin on your open channel is the best approach. If you do have a ball valve it should be oversized.

In terms of bubbles the open channel will handle more water than your siphon line prior to the siphon start simply because your siphon line is valved partially closed. More water = more bubbles in open channel.
I take the cap off the top of the drain at the top of the T and then put it back on, which allows the siphon to begin. My system is not ideal, it is all 1" plumbing. I am not running a large pump, yet, so the water never makes it up to the emergency drain. It just teeters above and below the tops of the downturned 90s.

I believe it was you that gave me the idea to add the 90 to the open channel in the sump to divert water from the siphon drain. That worked for about a month.

I have had a ton of cyano in my tank that i have been putting into the water column, so maybe it is getting stuck in the ball valves. I am going to clean the TUBVs and see if that helps. Might have a snail in there. If I open the siphon valve all the way it drops the water pretty quickly. Then I have to readjust it. Shouldn't moving the valve clear debris from the inside for the most part?


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Unread 05/27/2014, 04:11 PM   #9
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jHarding08: You are just running around in circles here my friend. Don't you think, that by doing the same thing over and over again, and achieving the same result, that perhaps you need to try something different? You keep posting the same issue, yet have not done what I suggested in the first place. Not trying to be rude or anything, just sayin...

I think you are hoping for better, or less direct answers. However that is not likely to happen, unless Bean himself jumps in, and that just may be a toss up. I have a couple hundred of these systems running (conversion was a great deal of work,) so I would imagine I have a fairly good notion as to how they work, why they work, and why they don't work.

You have multiple issues going on, not the least of which is a really poor flow rate (hence the low oxygen symptom called cyano,) though the flow rate has little to do with the operation of this drain system. The system was not implemented properly in the first place, preciptating the need to modify the open channel with a 90 at the bottom. Now that problem is back to haunt you. You keep removing the cap on the siphon, so it is not very likely that the siphon is airtight, just making matters worse.

Basically, you need to take a very intentional and methodic approach to this, and stop running around in circles. There very well could be a blockage in the siphon, it is not unheard of, and is the reason for redundant fail safety. However, even after the "blockage" was removed, you would still have the original issue present.

If your flow rate is really that bad, and judging by the cyano it well could be, I can think of some flow rates that would not trip a drain to siphon with 1" pipe, like 50 gph? 75 gph? Another thing to consider is, if you open the valve on the siphon, and it flows fairly well, it is not likely that a blockage is the problem. If it is blocked, the valve position is not likely to have any affect on the performance.

Test the siphon, as I suggested above, as it requires little effort to block off the open channel; change the location of the open channel (swap positions) so it is further away from the siphon, if you really think that is the problem. Do something different, because what you are doing is not solving the problem, and a tank loaded with cyano is on the brink of going down hard, removing it does not solve the cause of it.


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Unread 05/27/2014, 05:09 PM   #10
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What is the required distance for the drains to be apart from each other in the sump? Bean does not define how far apart the bulkheads are in the overflow, so if the drains go straight down into the sump, I would assume they are about 6" apart or more?


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Unread 05/27/2014, 05:14 PM   #11
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Bulkheads drilled through glass should be spaced 1.5 hole diameter center to center, minimum. The end result is the pipes are around 1.75" apart...it works...in some situations further distance apart may work out better, it depends. (Just a rough off the cuff number, I don't pay much attention to that, and I did run out and crawl in to measure...as long as the holes are spaced properly.)


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Unread 05/27/2014, 07:11 PM   #12
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I turned off the open channel, opened the siphon channel all the way and turned on the pump and the water built up past the elbow, then before it could overflow into the emergency, the siphon started and pulled all the water through. Looks like its not build up in the siphon line. Can I run it full time with the open channel off and just adjust the siphon ball valve? My flow must just be very weak (for the time being).

Seems like its hard to keep the water level accurate with just the siphon line


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Unread 05/27/2014, 07:36 PM   #13
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I switched the emergency and the open channel drains, so that the open channel now empties into a different chamber from the siphon. With the siphon ball valve set for the water level to be about half way up the siphon elbow, I stopped and started the system. Open channel wide open. The water level rose higher than the elbows, but didnt reach the emergency. For 5 min, a siphon never started. Opened the siphon up all the way and closed the open channel and it started. Reset the siphon and I can hear a dribble of water coming down the open channel. Can I restrict the open channel as part of the setup?


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Unread 05/27/2014, 10:58 PM   #14
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The siphon needs to be in the same body of water as the siphon. This is due to the interaction between the two, during normal running. The open channel should not be, and does not need to be restricted.

The problem is with the configuration of the open channel, it is taking too much water too soon, and robbing the siphon...right away this says that the air vent line is too low in the overflow...that is the most common reason for this issue, at any rate. On the positive side, you have finally determined it is NOT the bubbles coming out of the open channel that are causing the problem.

Running water level should be ~ the top of the downturned elbows, so you are setting it a bit low...

Given your current situation with the tank overall, test the dry emergency for function (shut the siphon down, with the open channel plugged, system running.) IF it works as it should (takes 100% of the flow,) run it with just the siphon and dry emergency. Fix the tank issues, bigger pump whatever it takes, and then come back to the open channel. Unless it is as simple as raising the inlet to the air vent to just below the rim of the tank on the inside (at the top of the glass,) this is going to be better than scratching your head while the tank goes down hill. The two pipe system, (also called a herbie when in a corner overflow,) works, with some fail safety, though does not self adjust. I ran two pipes for quite some time, before I finally converted to bean's system, and then converted far too many LOL.


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Last edited by uncleof6; 05/27/2014 at 11:12 PM.
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Unread 05/27/2014, 11:22 PM   #15
jharding08
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Cool

This is how my drain lines currently look. I haven't gotten around to bending the open channel air vent line back into the overflow. I thought that was just another failsafe. When you say it is too low do you mean the end of the tube or where it inserts into the PVC cap? Should I raise the water level more?



I was trying to adjust the water level when it was just the siphon line running, but it seemed more sensitive and kept fluctuating in the overflow, thus changing the levels in the sump. Is this normal or should it adjust as easily as when the open channel is in use? I will test the emergency for 100% of the tank flow.

I think I'll be able to get most issues with the design resolved when I add the larger pump.bin will be able to move the sump more towards the middle of the stand, allowing more room to run the drain lines into the drain section of the overflow and keeping them spread out.

I'd like to retrofit 1.5" pipes for the drains, but I'm not sure I have enough room behind the tank. Right now the 1" true union ball valves have about 2 inches to the wall.


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Unread 05/28/2014, 01:33 AM   #16
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Yes it will be sensitive and change your sump water level. I had to adjust my ATO several times.

I have a similar sized tank. Sicce 4 pump. To make mine work, my open channel is fully open. Siphon is only 10-20% open. It's running silent.

The ball valve made it hard. I think a gate valve would help a lot more. I find it much easier to find the sweet spot by closing the siphon all the way closed. Let the water build up, then open siphon little by little until u get the desired water level inside the overflow. I only had a very small sweet spot. The overflow would either fill up and cause noisy Open Channel or it would dry out... any noise in open channel means you didnt get it right

It took a few days and very painful palm.. definitely putting a gate valve next time


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Unread 05/28/2014, 02:53 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jharding08 View Post
This is how my drain lines currently look. I haven't gotten around to bending the open channel air vent line back into the overflow. I thought that was just another failsafe. When you say it is too low do you mean the end of the tube or where it inserts into the PVC cap? Should I raise the water level more?



I was trying to adjust the water level when it was just the siphon line running, but it seemed more sensitive and kept fluctuating in the overflow, thus changing the levels in the sump. Is this normal or should it adjust as easily as when the open channel is in use? I will test the emergency for 100% of the tank flow.

I think I'll be able to get most issues with the design resolved when I add the larger pump.bin will be able to move the sump more towards the middle of the stand, allowing more room to run the drain lines into the drain section of the overflow and keeping them spread out.

I'd like to retrofit 1.5" pipes for the drains, but I'm not sure I have enough room behind the tank. Right now the 1" true union ball valves have about 2 inches to the wall.

With the air vent line, i am speaking of where it enters the overflow. e.g. the end of the tube. It needs to be above the level of the inlet to the dry emergency, just inside the tank, just below the lip of the rim, where it rests on the glass. It is a final flood prevention, if both siphon and dry emergency get occluded.

Water level looks about right, from where I am sitting... LOL Also, from where I am sitting, I don't see anything, that grabs my attention, wrong with the system.

As monkie noted you will be happier with gate valves rather than ball valves. They are too coarse, in some cases, and should be used for on/off tasking rather than adjusting flow.

The two pipe system will be a bit more touchy to adjust. It has a rather narrow bandwidth, whereas the full bean system has a very wide bandwidth, and is easier to adjust. The two pipe system is also not completely stable, and changes in barometric pressure, and the like, can affect how the drain behaves. I don't often (if ever) recommend shutting off the open channel, however, looking at your tank (what I can see) you need to free yourself from the drain system for a while, and attend to business. Make sure to seal up the caps, with non-hardening thread sealant, then leave them alone.

I don't think that 1.5" would be useful at this point, as is you should have a 1200 gph capacity through the siphon line, but I can't see what is under the tank...


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Unread 05/28/2014, 10:09 AM   #18
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So to summarize, I dont have enough flow right now to effectively use the siphon AND open channels. The open channel will take too much flow during startup to get enough head pressure on the siphon channel to start the siphon.

Using just the siphon line with dry emergency drain will be unstable and cause changes in water level both in the overflow and in the sump.

The best thing to do is to get the bigger pump (1433 GPH) up and running, where on startup, the amount of flow will be enough to start the siphon with the open channel open.

This will also create more flow from tank to sump. Does cyano grow because of lack of tank turnover flow (from return pump) or internal tank flow (from powerheads)? I have two Tunze 6105s that are on the back wall facing the middle. They are on a pretty random program run on my Apex.


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Unread 05/28/2014, 11:20 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jharding08 View Post
So to summarize, I dont have enough flow right now to effectively use the siphon AND open channels. The open channel will take too much flow during startup to get enough head pressure on the siphon channel to start the siphon.
I am not convinced that this is the problem, however that is the symptom. I am recommending this course of action for expediency, as there are other matters that need your attention, rather than messing with the drain system for the time being.

Quote:
Using just the siphon line with dry emergency drain will be unstable and cause changes in water level both in the overflow and in the sump.
The changes are generally minute, however it does require occasional readjustment. If you are always messing with it, something is up. It does take a bit of fiddling to find the "sweet spot" where the water level neither rises or falls. Gate valves are your friend.

Quote:
The best thing to do is to get the bigger pump (1433 GPH) up and running, where on startup, the amount of flow will be enough to start the siphon with the open channel open.
May help, may not. Will have to wait and see.

Quote:
This will also create more flow from tank to sump. Does cyano grow because of lack of tank turnover flow (from return pump) or internal tank flow (from powerheads)? I have two Tunze 6105s that are on the back wall facing the middle. They are on a pretty random program run on my Apex.
Both. The powerheads are adjunctive (not supplementary or complimentary.) So improving one, without improving the other does not accomplish much.

You need a better flow pattern (dispersion) in the tank, to get rid of dead spots, and you need more "clean" water to push to those areas, as well as the rest. I would cut down the return closer to the tank, get rid of the "toy" loc-line gizmo, and use an open 45° at the end of the return line, outletting just below the water surface. the loc line is a restriction, increases pressure, reduces volume, provides directed flow. What you want is low pressure, high volume, diffuse flow.


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Unread 05/28/2014, 11:28 AM   #20
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This really is the worst time for the overflow to act up, as I am going on vacation tomorrow. As a workaround, I set the Feed cycles to just turn off the Tunzes and not the return. The return flow isnt enough to wash all the food down the drain and now I dont have to turn off the return pump (no restarting siphon) for the meantime.

When I get back I am putting in the Iwaki MD40-RXT, 1.5" return line plumbing and the single 45 into the water. Gotta start somewhere I guess.


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